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The Real Issue with Links - CCP Please read
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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#81 - 2012-03-26 10:34:13 UTC
Good thread, and looks like most agree.

Off-grid, unprobeable, nullifiied T3 links are lame, on-grid links on a Command ship are fine.

Currently it's just too easy to have link alt, and too stupid not have one, because of the bonus is so damn big. I'm training my indy alt for T3 links, we do small (micro) gang and really see no option.

.
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-03-26 10:54:54 UTC
Garmon wrote:
It was just mentioned on the "Brave New Module" part of fanfest that there will be new shield boosters/armor, they'd repair a lot more than current boosters but require more resources, from capacitor, but also apparently something else directly from what you have in cargo (pretty sure he wasn't talking about cap boosters to cap booster)

I'm sure there will be more accurate details on that very soon, saying that, most likely wont make it to the game for a while

Edit : Picture


Haven't seen this mentioned before, so I'm quoting this so it gets to page 5. Drone damage mod = return of the gayllente? I don't quite understand the armor resistance shifting hardener but it looks like that module + the target breaker one is designed to make large gangs primary'ing one target less effective which is great but I dunno where I'm going to find slots for those mods, I'm already short of slots when I go out and 2-3 man pvp already.

If any of these hit TQ in the next expansion it's going to be pretty exciting.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#83 - 2012-03-26 11:30:09 UTC
When something goes from being an option to a 'must-have' you know it's broken. Ganglinks are just that.

Let CCP just take off-grid boosting from the table first and see how it pans out.

Commitment to the fight means that you can't put six ganglinks on a ship and expect it to be useful for longer then a few seconds. So more tank and thus less ganglinks will automatically balance out the overpowering effect of them even further.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
killorbekilled TBE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-03-26 12:07:06 UTC
i am in favour of off grid link alts either t3's or command ships

because they allow solo pvpers a chance to compete with larger gangs

when i say solo pvpers i mean a player with a off grid link alt please don't turn this thread into what is the definition of a solo pvper

when it comes to the skill prerequisites of both the t3 and the command ship , the command ship being the most skill intensive should get more of a bonus to gang links

:)
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#85 - 2012-03-26 13:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Whereas I completely agree with the implications, I would say the way to fix it is:

- Make the links need to be on-grid
- Give the command ships the 5% bonus, T3's the 3%
- Adjust both so they can be a viable combat fit (on par with their T1 hull) - probably through giving them a half rack of guns with a 100% bonus. This will also make the T3 lol-link fits disappear in favour of intelligent fitting decisions for use in combat.

Then see if making the force multiplier be on-grid starts to get properly countered and become a viable part of battlefield strategy.

This is a two-stage fix:
- Give them a counter
- Adjust the gameplay of the link ship character to make it less likely to be an alt

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#86 - 2012-03-26 14:28:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
What was the issue with just making the bonus applied inversely proportional to the fleet member count? And for wing & squad member count for the corresponding booster positions? Say a 10man squad get 20% of the bonus, 100man fleet 5%? 'Solo' guy still gets ~100%
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#87 - 2012-03-26 14:37:53 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
yea please this stuff needs fixed. when t3 boosting became 'the thing' in fw nearly all small scale/1v1 pvp ended. and only people who are suicidal like me still fight without links.


There's a few others of us who don't abuse links.

But yeah, the threat of "I wonder if that Thrasher actually goes 3 km/s because of this neutral alt in local that I can't touch" is stupid. Good thread, Garmon.

Not having extensively used boosting myself, I can't say how they should be nerfed, but they do badly need a nerf

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2012-03-26 15:00:04 UTC
There should be off grid boosting

Promotes alternative Play style - non Blob
Promotes the used of Combat scanner ship to find us cowards
Moves from Group Weapons target Command ship to "Bob Find me that off grid command ship" Okay Wing 2 Disengage and warp to bob to take out the command ship and get back here.

Though if you are on grid you should be rewarded for the risk.

I think Command modules should have a lesser effect while off grid vs those on grid

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-03-26 15:12:25 UTC
killorbekilled TBE wrote:
i am in favour of off grid link alts either t3's or command ships

because they allow solo pvpers a chance to compete with larger gangs

when i say solo pvpers i mean a player with a off grid link alt please don't turn this thread into what is the definition of a solo pvper

when it comes to the skill prerequisites of both the t3 and the command ship , the command ship being the most skill intensive should get more of a bonus to gang links



I had a boosta alt so i could solo pvp vs groups but most peeps have a boosta. Its just noobs who dont run with a boosta. If every fleet needs to have one whats the point?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#90 - 2012-03-26 16:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Gevlin wrote:

Moves from Group Weapons target Command ship to "Bob Find me that off grid command ship" Okay Wing 2 Disengage and warp to bob to take out the command ship and get back here.


You're delusional. Here is what actually happens:

  • Hisec: can't get the boosting ship because it's neutral and you get CONCORDed if you try.
  • Lowsec: can't get the boosting ship because it's pre-aligned and warps (and cloaks for T3s) immediately as anything appears on grid.
  • Nullsec: sending any more than 1-2 people after it gives the enemy blob too much of an advantage. One of those ships has to be an interdictor, or you're back to the lowsec situation.
  • Everywhere: boosting ship is already on a POS/station/gate making it impossible to kill.


Boosting as an idea for a mechanic is fine, but the ridiculous amount of bonuses it adds now is only acceptable with some risk like being on grid, or even within a certain distance (75 km?) of the ships you're boosting to get full bonuses. It also needs to extend aggression (a la neutral RR), and maybe bloom sig radius. Everyone always says "risk=reward", but right now one of the most rewarding things for a fleet only involves large ISK investment without much risk to lose it.

Ed: Because of the extra risks, aggression, etc, boosting ships also need to appear on KMs.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#91 - 2012-03-28 12:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: James1122
What about a flat out 50% nerf to link effectiveness and then a further 50% nerf to link effectiveness if the links are off grid. I.e. Off-grid links only give a very small partial bonus where as on grid links give full bonus.

....
NECRO MERC
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-03-28 13:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: NECRO MERC
Disagree with this post.

I agree they're powerful, I mean as you say yourself crystal set is about 2.5b, and a link fit tengu is about 600m...

Oh wait, it's another ship... That requires another pilot, that requires another plex a month. Whilst I don't agree with MT or pay-to-win, I think in Eve you've always been able to get an advantage by using an alt, whether it's links or a falcon. I also can't remember the last time I fought a small gang that used links. They're not that common.

If you nerf leadership you create a lot of problems and a lot of tears that aren't needed, who really thinks they break the game? On paper you say they give you a 106km point... No they don't. That's part of the equation, the other part is the Lachesis pilot who has put his **** on the plate with a heated RF point.

I so strongly disagree with the "make Eve a level playing field" mentality and purchasing the gucci mods (for example a point that costs more than the hull, which you could lose like that if the wrong fleet comes along) should give you a notable advantage since they're available to anyone. Just like links.
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#93 - 2012-06-26 12:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
ON GRID COMMAND SHIP BOOSTERS? AWW I REALLY ENJOYED PROBING DOWN PEOPLE'S LINK ALTS Big smile

SEEMS LIKE A VALID COUNTER, SURE YOU NEED TO FRONT UP MONEY FOR THE IMPLANTS, JUST LIKE EVERYONE WITH A LINK ALT FRONTED UP FOR THEIR HARDWARE.... EVERYTIME SOMEBODY USES LINKS, THEY ARE RISKING A COMPLETELY UNTANKED T3 SITTING IN SPACE ON AN ACCOUNT THAT THEY AREN'T WATCHING WHILE PVP'ING, AS I HAVE PERSONALLY LEARNT THE HARD WAY MORE THAN ONCE.... WORST CASE SCENARIO YOU FORCE THEM CLOAK UP, HENCE COUNTERING THE LINKS FOR A FLEET PROBABLY BUILT AROUND THEM, BEST CASE, YOU GET A NICE 600M T3 MAIL AND HOPEFULLY ENTERTAINING LOCAL CHAT TO BOOT. HELL YOU DON'T EVEN NEED VIRTUES TO FORCE A LINK ALT TO CLOAK UP, JUST DROP PROBES ON SCAN FROM THEIR GANG AND THEY'LL DO IT ANYWAY


ALL THAT ONGRID BOOSTING REALLY DOES IS STOP THE SOLO PILOTS FROM USING LINKS TO EVEN THE ODDS A LITTLE, AS THE GANGS CAN STILL DO IT REGARDLESS. BUT MEH WHATEVER CHANGES ARE PUT INTO PLACE I CAN WORK WITH, I MEAN EVERYONE'S ON THE SAME PLAYING FIELD AND WE CAN ALL ADAPT.
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#94 - 2012-06-26 12:18:10 UTC
IS THERE ANY UPDATES ON PROGRESS TO CHANGES SINCE THIS THREAD WAS STARTED THO ? NICE NECRO AND I'M INTERESTED TO SEE WHERE WE GO WITH IT
Skogen Gump
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2012-06-26 12:34:24 UTC
I think there should be a bit more variety in command links and that a specific variety might help with this 'problem'.

Command ships come in two flavours of course, Fleet Command and Field Command ships.

What I'd like to see is a variety of command mods that can only be used on grid by Field command ships, but supply a better bonus or a wider range of effects.
Also an alternative set of system wide mods that can only be used by fleet ships but provide a more tactical role.

For example, imagine a field mod that could 'identify' a weak spot on a given enemy ship and provides a method to allow all your comrades to concentrate fire.

A fleet mod might do make it easier to probe out things in space or even provide a mobile force field that would act like a low powered POS shield; giving members of your fleet a safe spot to warp to.
Of course, said shield would be vulnerable to capital ships or even large groups of Battleships, and would behave like a siege module.

I think there's a lot of scope for interesting gameplay choices if we had a system like this!

(oh and command destroyers for small ship wolfpacks please!)
Mons Pubis Giganticus
Doomheim
#96 - 2012-06-26 19:55:02 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
When something goes from being an option to a 'must-have' you know it's broken. Ganglinks are just that.

Let CCP just take off-grid boosting from the table first and see how it pans out.

Commitment to the fight means that you can't put six ganglinks on a ship and expect it to be useful for longer then a few seconds. So more tank and thus less ganglinks will automatically balance out the overpowering effect of them even further.

to hold sov space you must have supers and titans. i agree that its broken. to kill something you must have weapons or drones. they must be broken. that WAS the conclusion you were proposing right?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#97 - 2012-06-26 20:06:54 UTC
Dear god, dat necro.

I have since started using boosters (with me doing boosting for my gangs) and they regularly net us good kills without me having to put my ship in any amount of danger. Not that I don't put it in danger anyway but that's just because my Claymore is not afraid of anything.

I still stand by that limiting boosts to on-grid only would fix most of their problems. Neutral boosting remains an issue, and it should be rectified by aggro transfer just as it is for logis (plus the possible jump timer that logi should also get). I don't see why these ships not firing guns should exempt them from committing to a fight that they singlehandedly turn the tide of.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#98 - 2012-06-28 12:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
+1 for Garmon's post - way more authentic if especially a person who uses them a lot complains about links being a bit to performant, there could be something about it.

As far as I see it, there a mindlinks that increase the link's efficiency by quite a bit, since I only get stomped by boosted 4km/s cynas and daredevils with the flying properties of a pod on steroids, I have to admit they do a big difference to the point where I want them to be looked at aswell.

But I disagree: Just have the boost being limited to 'on-grid' doesn't sound like a sufficient solution.


Edit: And yes, I don't see many active tanked ship's performing fine out there without links on their side/no links on the opponent's side :( Be it due to active tanking being ridiculously borderline when tanking a single foe or just not repping enough at all against a (single) buffertanked fit of equal value/size/style. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from fleets (yes Buffertanking is somehow a must due to the nature of fleetfights, even I understand that), active tanking does not even shine in (''fair'') solo situations.