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Yearly return review :)
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#41 - 2012-03-26 09:17:53 UTC
Rells wrote:
The really sad part is that people like you and I used to be the majority. The non-pvpers were decried as whiners and weak. They were told that this was a PvP game and they better get with the program.

Now they have taken over and turned the game into World of Warcraft.

Yes, once PvE and PvP in this game were intertwined, to be successful in one it was necessary to be at least remotely competent in the other. Now the game is separated into high sec PvE raids, and null sec PvP arenas. The WoW players among us may claim Eve is a cold, harsh universe but the reality is that that vision has been slowly dying for some time now.

The only valuable aspect of null sec worth fighting over is the passive income from renters and moons, neither of which hold any value for the average player or member of an alliance.

Other than that, the non-consensual PvP elements associated with null sec are gone. Exploration can be done in nullified cloaky T3s, moon minerals are moved by jump freighter and thanks to system upgrades single systems can be farmed for ISK endlessly with the gates bubbled and plenty of time to dock up if a neutral enters.

Ashley SchmidtVonGoldberg wrote:
Like another poster in this thread it is easy to fall into a comfort zone and just grind up isk. When i used to play a lot more i would grind up about 4 billion isk and then just stop pveing and do more risky things and then i started building and ive never got enough isk.

Just out of interest, how did you grind that 4b? Mission running, empire exploration, incursions?

Ashley SchmidtVonGoldberg wrote:
Getting started and creating a logistics chain is impossible for most people in this game.

Creating a "logistics chain" is easy, in the worst case scenario black frog will move all your stuff for you for a tiny cost with zero risk of anything being lost. Outside of black frog we have nullifier fit T3s, and carriers are no longer that rare. Hell, I know a number of players in SoV null sec that used to scan down exploration sites and use a carrier to move their exploration ships to the nearest station to run it.

Logistics, if it is anything, is too easy in Eve. Nothing of value is put at risk in transport now.

Ashley SchmidtVonGoldberg wrote:
If this really is a sandbox people should be able to do as they like, but your mechanics would only allow for a streaming of professions towards large alliances and pvp only.

Moving high value professions toward null and low sec, and increasing the risk in those areas accordingly, does not favor large alliances. In fact it hinders them considerably.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2012-03-26 10:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Simi Kusoni wrote:
words

you are really considering only one side of the story while discarding all implications that don't fit into your view.

"people do PvE in high-sec and PvP in 0.0" - that's true for me but i could earn significantly more in 0.0 (running sanctums in a -0.9 system) than I do with lvl4 missions.
The reason I earn most of my isk in high-sec is that I usually do it while being in a PvP fleet (which means having to divert attention away from my PvE character, sometimes for minutes at a time).

"T3s make movement to easy" and "bubbles make ratting systems too safe" choose one or the other.

"capital proliferation makes movement too easy" and makes hotdrops a common threat.

easy logistics enable solo players to have fun in 0.0 without having to be aligned with any large "blob" - last year I packed my carrier and was off to a 2-3 week vacation in Stain maybe an hour after I had made that decision.
If we had to run big convoys to get stuff into/out of 0.0 you would probably complain that this leaves solo players completely in the cold and only serves to make the strong even stronger.

wormholes were a pretty huge change that enables roaming gangs to come from "nowhere", bypassing all your gatecamps, bubbles and intel channels.

moon minerals hold a lot of value for the average player as they lift the burden of having to earn ISK in order to replace pvp losses from his shoulders. this only works because they are static sources of income on corporation/alliance level whih individuals can generally not tap on their own.
try to fund a comprehensive ship replacement program by redistributing personal income - probably won't work unless you have a very special corporation culture.

@OP what are your views on the time in 0.0 after Dominion and before Incursion. During that time even "worthless" space did yield extremely high amounts of personal income compared to high-sec - in fact the people who started playing during that time look at me like I'm a madman when I tell them that of course somebody living in 0.0 has a mission alt in empire.
I don't really understand why you want to be able to stop threats at the borders of your sov space. Sounds to me like this would make the game even more static. Alliances would try to build up inconquerable fortresses within which their carebears can live in complete safety. The ability to disrupt enemy logistics by disabling jumpbridge networks, "headshotting" staging systems and trapping most assets therein, harassing the ratters, ... are imo essential to making it possible to topple an established 0.0 empire at all.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-03-26 10:06:26 UTC
hey welcome back. I've been gone, more or less for 3 years as well.

interesting times ahead no?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#44 - 2012-03-26 10:37:15 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
"people do PvE in high-sec and PvP in 0.0" - that's true for me but i could earn significantly more in 0.0 (running sanctums in a -0.9 system) than I do with lvl4 missions.

True, but you'd make even more running incursions. I used to dual box sanctums and havens in an upgraded -.9 system with cascade imminent, I was doing it in a carrier and a pure gank machariel with no local rep.

I made less ISK than I did dual boxing incursions, so eventually I stopped doing it. Now I live in syndicate, and if I ever need ISK again I'll just go run incursions risk free in high sec. Most of the people I know that live down here do the same, or they simply buy plex.

You get the odd person doing exploration, but it is becoming more and more rare. Even in sov null I very rarely saw anyone but renters doing it, and they were confined to doing it in their single systems, which again is just gated, instanced raids with no risk.

Florestan Bronstein wrote:
The reason I earn most of my isk in high-sec is that I usually do it while being in a PvP fleet (which means having to divert attention away from my PvE character, sometimes for minutes at a time).

That's interesting, but again you are running level fours, something that very few people really have issues with.

Florestan Bronstein wrote:
"T3s make movement to easy" and "bubbles make ratting systems too safe" choose one or the other.

Why? Both points are valid, although I was not specifically blaming bubbles in the example you're quoting.

Florestan Bronstein wrote:
"capital proliferation makes movement too easy" and makes hotdrops a common threat.

Hot drops are not a common threat unless you are stupid enough to PvE in ungated sites with a neutral in local.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#45 - 2012-03-26 10:37:28 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
easy logistics enable solo players to have fun in 0.0 without having to be aligned with any large "blob" - last year I packed my carrier and was off to a 2-3 week vacation in Stain maybe an hour after I had made that decision.
If we had to run big convoys to get stuff into/out of 0.0 you would probably complain that this leaves solo players completely in the cold and only serves to make the strong even stronger.

No, I would probably be blowing the hell out of those convoys. For small players and organisations, and I would certainly count myself as such now, it is quite feasible to scout your way into areas like stain without difficulty.

Anyway, it took you an hour to redeploy solo to stain? And you don't see an issue with that?

Florestan Bronstein wrote:
wormholes were a pretty huge change that enables roaming gangs to come from "nowhere", bypassing all your gatecamps, bubbles and intel channels.

[quote=Florestan Bronstein]moon minerals hold a lot of value for the average player as they lift the burden of having to earn ISK in order to replace pvp losses from his shoulders. this only works because they are static sources of income on corporation/alliance level whih individuals can generally not tap on their own.
try to fund a comprehensive ship replacement program by redistributing personal income - probably won't work unless you have a very special corporation culture.

The majority of the money from moon minerals and renting does not go toward ship replacement in the vast majority of alliances. The last alliance I was a part of the ISK went toward buying the leader a titan, and there were quite a few rumors among corporation directors of assets and ISK simply going missing. This is not a rare occurrence.

(One quite amusing example is once, after a pos bash in which we took a thanatos and a freighter, the ships were seized and proclaimed to be "alliance assets". Several hours later an alt of the alliance leader attempted to sell one of them to my corp mate. Similarly with expensive loot drops on fleets, the ISK simply vanished.)

And my comment was never aimed at redistributing "personal" income, what I would like to see is passive income controlled solely by alliance leadership slowly nerfed and replaced by increases in income for the players living in the region.

The only alliance I've heard of that has a good reputation in terms of distributing it's income is, oddly, goonswarm.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-03-27 01:37:29 UTC
Rells wrote:
Well since quitting the game three years ago, I come back for a month every year or so to see what is going on in the game. I log on and see improved graphics and clients but alas I also see things that haven't changed. I end up playing off and on for a month and then quitting the game again. Now I realize I am probably wasting my time and the devs probably doesn't care but I will say why for the third year I am not renewing again.

Back in 2004 CCP had a game that was dedicated to PVP warfare and it was grand but then they started adding stuff for the non-pvper. And they kept adding and adding and in the process nerving 0.0. Many of us warned this would have a disastrous effect on the intended gameplay focused on player organizations. We ware all flamed like burgers on the 4th of july. Of course it happened. When concord was put in to protect non-pvpers, CCP assured us they would be defeat able and wouldn't become invincible as we warned. We were told to shut up again and flamed again. When they added megacyte to empire space, we warned of the disastrous economic effects to 0.0 economies and we were flamed and told there were only trace amounts and that we were full of it. When they introduced level 4 missions we warned they were pushing all financial incentives to empire and were again flamed to hell. We complained that other than a couple of areas most of 0.0 was now worthless. We were told to shut up.

In the meantime we asked for things. The ability to secure our empires with gate guns and implement real border warfare. We asked for the sovereignty system to focus on border, not jumping 500 capitals into the main heart of the player empire. We asked for low sec to be declared a disaster area (as it always was) and just added to 0.0. We asked for many things to assist players in making their own game.

Some 8 years later all of the bad predictions have come to pass and none of the requests have ben granted. Over the last two weeks I have flown through deserted 0.0 space where the only time you see anyone is occasionally in passing and the deeper you get in 0.0, the more the population density looks like upper siberia. There still is no way to create player made empire, sovereignty management is still a joke and 99% of the population is in empire. Don't take my word for it, log on and pull a star map. I just logged off when there are 43k people online and 99% ofthem are in empire. Empire is a bright star of population and 0.0 is all but deserted. Some people camp the entry gates but otherwise it is largely empty. Once you are past the high sec and low sec chokes you can fly for hours without seeing a soul.

What's more it that nearly 10 years after the start of the game players still can't secure their empires against marauders and form real communities and nearly everyone in the game makes their money in high sec lucrative pursuits and trays 0.0 like a glorified arena. Its very sad and depressing given what it could have been. I still think of the player made content that could have insued from this game and shake my head sadly.

In short, Eve has become a care bear game. I used to make fun of people that played WoW but at least that game has stayed true to its vision, a game with corporation generated content and only a fleeting nod to player content. Eve still says it is sandbox on the front page but its a well regulated, tightly controlled sand box with concord over each child's shoulder ensuring they don't play dodgeball because someone might get hurt. There is almost no incentive to take risks, to move into high sec.

CCP might as well get it over with and keep a couple of 0.0 regions as arenas and make the rest of the game high sec. Say the jovians finally invaded the galaxy and get it over with. Since CCP has been making the game slowly a care bear game for years, they might as well get it over with.

This is the last year I will be back and trying it out. It is a lost cause and that, strangely, makes me sad. CCP, you started something wonderful and then let bean counters and hand wringers mess it up. Its too bad really.



I agree with some of what you have to say, but it's not as bad as all that.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Kraythen
Lethal Riposte
#47 - 2012-03-27 07:20:10 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:

I agree with some of what you have to say, but it's not as bad as all that.


I don't see how someone can agree and think its not so bad. If you are a pvper it is an utter catastrophe.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#48 - 2012-03-27 07:34:49 UTC
I didn't start EVE years ago, but what you describe is the game I would like to play.

Making hisec as it is today was a mistake, it brings people in that think there is separate "PVE" and "PVP" in EVE. Basically it just serves to grow wrong ideas into peoples heads.

Without exposure to violence from other players, MMO stops being an MMO and you could just as well play alone against a debile AI.

However, I have found a home in a wormhole with lowsec static, and enjoy the game immensely at the moment. Whole concept of wormholes is a hallmark of stellar game design and as an environment solves many of the problems of null, and is feasible for microscopic corps like ours.

Hope Inferno improves both null and hisec- obviously territorial wars is something I want to get into, but at the moment I rather do my own thing in whs.

.
Kraythen
Lethal Riposte
#49 - 2012-03-28 23:42:34 UTC
Roime wrote:
I didn't start EVE years ago, but what you describe is the game I would like to play.

Making hisec as it is today was a mistake, it brings people in that think there is separate "PVE" and "PVP" in EVE. Basically it just serves to grow wrong ideas into peoples heads.

Without exposure to violence from other players, MMO stops being an MMO and you could just as well play alone against a debile AI.

However, I have found a home in a wormhole with lowsec static, and enjoy the game immensely at the moment. Whole concept of wormholes is a hallmark of stellar game design and as an environment solves many of the problems of null, and is feasible for microscopic corps like ours.

Hope Inferno improves both null and hisec- obviously territorial wars is something I want to get into, but at the moment I rather do my own thing in whs.


We will see. It would take supreme guts to rollback the care bear tide and reinstate player focused gaming.
Ersteen Hofs
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-04-06 06:32:48 UTC
maybe you should go to war, that's where the real pvp is. what? too scared? carebear.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#51 - 2012-04-06 06:39:07 UTC
Ersteen Hofs wrote:
maybe you should go to war, that's where the real pvp is. what? too scared? carebear.

Why on Earth are you trying to revive/troll a thread that died over a week ago?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Dry Martinis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-04-06 06:57:04 UTC
Rells wrote:
Well since quitting the game three years ago, I come back for a month every year or so to see what is going on in the game. I log on and see improved graphics and clients but alas I also see things that haven't changed. I end up playing off and on for a month and then quitting the game again. Now I realize I am probably wasting my time and the devs probably doesn't care but I will say why for the third year I am not renewing again.

Back in 2004 CCP had a game that was dedicated to PVP warfare and it was grand but then they started adding stuff for the non-pvper. And they kept adding and adding and in the process nerving 0.0. Many of us warned this would have a disastrous effect on the intended gameplay focused on player organizations. We ware all flamed like burgers on the 4th of july. Of course it happened. When concord was put in to protect non-pvpers, CCP assured us they would be defeat able and wouldn't become invincible as we warned. We were told to shut up again and flamed again. When they added megacyte to empire space, we warned of the disastrous economic effects to 0.0 economies and we were flamed and told there were only trace amounts and that we were full of it. When they introduced level 4 missions we warned they were pushing all financial incentives to empire and were again flamed to hell. We complained that other than a couple of areas most of 0.0 was now worthless. We were told to shut up.

In the meantime we asked for things. The ability to secure our empires with gate guns and implement real border warfare. We asked for the sovereignty system to focus on border, not jumping 500 capitals into the main heart of the player empire. We asked for low sec to be declared a disaster area (as it always was) and just added to 0.0. We asked for many things to assist players in making their own game.

Some 8 years later all of the bad predictions have come to pass and none of the requests have ben granted. Over the last two weeks I have flown through deserted 0.0 space where the only time you see anyone is occasionally in passing and the deeper you get in 0.0, the more the population density looks like upper siberia. There still is no way to create player made empire, sovereignty management is still a joke and 99% of the population is in empire. Don't take my word for it, log on and pull a star map. I just logged off when there are 43k people online and 99% ofthem are in empire. Empire is a bright star of population and 0.0 is all but deserted. Some people camp the entry gates but otherwise it is largely empty. Once you are past the high sec and low sec chokes you can fly for hours without seeing a soul.

What's more it that nearly 10 years after the start of the game players still can't secure their empires against marauders and form real communities and nearly everyone in the game makes their money in high sec lucrative pursuits and trays 0.0 like a glorified arena. Its very sad and depressing given what it could have been. I still think of the player made content that could have insued from this game and shake my head sadly.

In short, Eve has become a care bear game. I used to make fun of people that played WoW but at least that game has stayed true to its vision, a game with corporation generated content and only a fleeting nod to player content. Eve still says it is sandbox on the front page but its a well regulated, tightly controlled sand box with concord over each child's shoulder ensuring they don't play dodgeball because someone might get hurt. There is almost no incentive to take risks, to move into high sec.

CCP might as well get it over with and keep a couple of 0.0 regions as arenas and make the rest of the game high sec. Say the jovians finally invaded the galaxy and get it over with. Since CCP has been making the game slowly a care bear game for years, they might as well get it over with.

This is the last year I will be back and trying it out. It is a lost cause and that, strangely, makes me sad. CCP, you started something wonderful and then let bean counters and hand wringers mess it up. Its too bad really.


Exactly how I've been feeling man. CCP has all these ads about how hard eve is, but they are slowly dumbing the game down and catering to carebears. I have been thinking of just becoming a full time griefer, until that is nerfed too.

CAPS LOCK: CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.
Hroya
#53 - 2012-04-06 07:00:59 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Why on Earth are you trying to revive/troll a thread that died over a week ago?



Well i am glad he did, missed that post and it's a good one.

You go your corridor but.
Qen Tye
In Between
#54 - 2012-04-06 07:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Qen Tye
Rells wrote:
I built what I think is the best corp in the game. Still they kick ass. Agony Unleashed has done more for this game than most corporations. That doesn't change the fact that CCP has boiled the proverbial frog and has you all playing world of warcraft now.

EVE = WoW - Yeah - no!
Dont even get me started on this one....

WoW stayed true to itself?
hmm .. lets see - Golden dragons to please asian players ring a bell? just to name one (feel free to fill in)

Back on topic
So what you once and other players had was epic to you and all that - and good for you. However I have to admit what I read in your posts is you did not get what you and others suggested and just like a little boy not getting his icecream you build up tears in eyes and stomps your feet.

Games evolve and be rest assured just because you think you have the best ideas on how to improve the game, the devs have no obligation to follow them whatsoever. Let me challenge you - you go ahead and develop a new mmorpg and then com back here after 6 months and show some numbers of how many of the ideas from the community you implemented.

Cooperations to get things done is still on and the corp I'm in are building towards that - be part of a strong alliance in all aspects and if null sec is so empty, great - room for expansion once we get there and my bet is eventually we will have to defend it.

I am sorry that you have lost the feeling of the game but sounds to me you have to move on.

Two possibilities exists: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.

  • Arthur C. Clarke
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#55 - 2012-04-06 07:53:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Qen Tye wrote:
Cooperations to get things done is still on and the corp I'm in are building towards that - be part of a strong alliance in all aspects and if null sec is so empty, great - room for expansion once we get there and my bet is eventually we will have to defend it.

And then once you get to null you'll realize that whilst you hold sov raiden still control all the valuable moons in your territory, your members will be making less ISK than they were in high sec and when you go out roaming for PvP all you'll find is a bunch of bots that warp to pos when a neut enters local.

Then you'll come to the forums and make exactly the same complaints we've been making.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-04-06 08:16:16 UTC
Food for thought, but I think WHs are the new 0.0

No Concord, logistics can't really be done by Jump freighter and afaik, not serviced by a transport firm.

I agree PvE is boring, that's what I have been doing for months, and if I have to mine one more asteroid, I swear I will pod myself.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Dbars Grinding
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#57 - 2012-04-06 08:16:32 UTC
i am not high enough to read your toast. is this thread about ponies?

I have more space likes than you. 
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-04-06 08:17:54 UTC
Qen Tye wrote:
I am sorry that you have lost the feeling of the game but sounds to me you have to move on.

This is a garbage post and you should be embarrassed for making it.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Qen Tye
In Between
#59 - 2012-04-06 08:27:10 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Qen Tye wrote:
Cooperations to get things done is still on and the corp I'm in are building towards that - be part of a strong alliance in all aspects and if null sec is so empty, great - room for expansion once we get there and my bet is eventually we will have to defend it.

And then once you get to null you'll realize that whilst you hold sov raiden still control all the valuable moons in your territory, your members will be making less ISK than they were in high sec and when you go out roaming for PvP all you'll find is a bunch of bots that warp to pos when a neut enters local.

Then you'll come to the forums and make exactly the same complaints we've been making.

Might be - might not be.

My point is - games changes, sometimes to the good and sometimes to the bad. In situations like this I ask myself these simple questions
- Can you do anything to change it? y/n
- Can you live with it? y/n

If you do not like the changes or get you icecream and candy there's a very simple solution - /game

Living on dreams and what once was does not bring it back.

Two possibilities exists: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.

  • Arthur C. Clarke
Hroya
#60 - 2012-04-06 08:30:44 UTC
Qen Tye wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Qen Tye wrote:
Cooperations to get things done is still on and the corp I'm in are building towards that - be part of a strong alliance in all aspects and if null sec is so empty, great - room for expansion once we get there and my bet is eventually we will have to defend it.

And then once you get to null you'll realize that whilst you hold sov raiden still control all the valuable moons in your territory, your members will be making less ISK than they were in high sec and when you go out roaming for PvP all you'll find is a bunch of bots that warp to pos when a neut enters local.

Then you'll come to the forums and make exactly the same complaints we've been making.

Might be - might not be.

My point is - games changes, sometimes to the good and sometimes to the bad. In situations like this I ask myself these simple questions
- Can you do anything to change it? y/n
- Can you live with it? y/n

If you do not like the changes or get you icecream and candy there's a very simple solution - /game

Living on dreams and what once was does not bring it back.


Opposite to reall life, here it can be done in some form or fashion. That would also constitute a change and such still stay true to the ongoing process of evolving. This isnt some magicall spur of nature, it is code on a machine and it can be altered at any given time.



You go your corridor but.