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2x Hulk or Hulk + Orca
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#41 - 2012-03-22 15:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:


I have never lost an ORCA and only lost one hulk in over 3 years. And that hulk I lost was near the beginning of my mining career.

The right fit combined with a little brain power and planing high sec mining is very safe. At least it has been for me.



Seriously, it has been 13 months since I lost a Mack and that's it.

One just has to be..........AWARE.

That's why I understand NOT the swath of destruction carved out by a single SOLO player in the Genesis Region. (See Thread in GD).

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#42 - 2012-03-22 15:44:00 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:
I like how everyone assumes OP is mining in highsec.



Come visit me in Thiarer.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Indy Toon Finder
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-03-22 15:45:50 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Styth spiting wrote:

  • No idea why no one else dosen't do this, but the orca can use mining drones I & II, which is always a nice extra yeild per hour.



    • Indeed, they mine enough to save about 2-3 cycles (depending) per Orca load with 2 Hulks mining.


    When Ice Mining though (Mining Drones are useless for this), I put Med Shield Maintenance Bot II's from the Orca to one of the Hulks. That Hulk then uses them on the other Hulk. THAT Hulk defends with Combat drones.

    The Shield Maint Drones will help in dealing with up to a small gank gang. Of course, it's all out the window with Smartbombs involved..................



    Yep, those shield bots will definately help against a ganker... just like the shield boost fits...

    Your either facing a high alpha (one shot) tornado(s) or a sizeable destroyer gang of which shield boosting/repairing is worthless.

    A bunch of shield drones or a scanned shield booster fit will likely attract them to an easy kill.

    buffer+resist is what you want and even that is not a guarantee but will force more gankers to the party to kill you.
    Krixtal Icefluxor
    INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
    #44 - 2012-03-22 15:55:19 UTC
    Indy Toon Finder wrote:
    Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
    Styth spiting wrote:

  • No idea why no one else dosen't do this, but the orca can use mining drones I & II, which is always a nice extra yeild per hour.



    • Indeed, they mine enough to save about 2-3 cycles (depending) per Orca load with 2 Hulks mining.


    When Ice Mining though (Mining Drones are useless for this), I put Med Shield Maintenance Bot II's from the Orca to one of the Hulks. That Hulk then uses them on the other Hulk. THAT Hulk defends with Combat drones.

    The Shield Maint Drones will help in dealing with up to a small gank gang. Of course, it's all out the window with Smartbombs involved..................



    Yep, those shield bots will definately help against a ganker... just like the shield boost fits...

    Your either facing a high alpha (one shot) tornado(s) or a sizeable destroyer gang of which shield boosting/repairing is worthless.

    A bunch of shield drones or a scanned shield booster fit will likely attract them to an easy kill.

    buffer+resist is what you want and even that is not a guarantee but will force more gankers to the party to kill you.



    OK.

    Every idea is a bad idea.

    Advice taken.

    We will do NOTHING then. Roll

    "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
    Indy Toon Finder
    Doomheim
    #45 - 2012-03-22 16:19:26 UTC
    Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
    Indy Toon Finder wrote:
    Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
    Styth spiting wrote:

  • No idea why no one else dosen't do this, but the orca can use mining drones I & II, which is always a nice extra yeild per hour.



    • Indeed, they mine enough to save about 2-3 cycles (depending) per Orca load with 2 Hulks mining.


    When Ice Mining though (Mining Drones are useless for this), I put Med Shield Maintenance Bot II's from the Orca to one of the Hulks. That Hulk then uses them on the other Hulk. THAT Hulk defends with Combat drones.

    The Shield Maint Drones will help in dealing with up to a small gank gang. Of course, it's all out the window with Smartbombs involved..................



    Yep, those shield bots will definately help against a ganker... just like the shield boost fits...

    Your either facing a high alpha (one shot) tornado(s) or a sizeable destroyer gang of which shield boosting/repairing is worthless.

    A bunch of shield drones or a scanned shield booster fit will likely attract them to an easy kill.

    buffer+resist is what you want and even that is not a guarantee but will force more gankers to the party to kill you.



    OK.

    Every idea is a bad idea.

    Advice taken.

    We will do NOTHING then. Roll


    read earlier in the thread you stupid piece of ****. my fits are all buffer and high resist vs max yield. active tanking is crap versus ganks.
    Ninyania alCladdyth
    McLuvin AstroDynamics
    #46 - 2012-03-22 17:40:26 UTC
    Zetaomega333 wrote:
    I like how everyone assumes OP is mining in highsec.


    OP wrote:
    Which one is better for hs mining?

    Will decide my skill queue on my alt :P


    Roll
    Krixtal Icefluxor
    INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
    #47 - 2012-03-22 18:10:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
    Indy Toon Finder wrote:

    read earlier in the thread you stupid piece of ****. my fits are all buffer and high resist vs max yield. active tanking is crap versus ganks.


    U Mad Bro ?

    Talk about getting pantyhose in a knot............

    (Lay off the drugs and you will feel much better)

    (BTW, I've gotten toons banned from the Forum for less than this)

    "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
    Styth spiting
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #48 - 2012-03-22 22:25:56 UTC
    One other additional bonus to the Orca + Hulk combo is the boosts you receive from Armored Warfare (level V = 10% armor) Siege Warfare (level V = 10% shield cap) Skirmish warfare (level V = 10% ship agility). Granted these boosts wont add much additional protection, but that extra bit of armor/shield + speed could be a deciding factor in surviving long enough for Concord to save your ship.
    Delphinia Anzomi
    The Corinth Clan
    #49 - 2012-03-23 04:44:27 UTC
    Cheers, and for the record i was planning on max yeild fitting the hulk(s) wither way, drones for the rats amd if someone really wants to gank me they can try but unless its hulkageddon oit, which it isnt atm, im not worried.

    Thanks guys.

    P.S. Relax.
    Cayden Xios
    #50 - 2012-03-23 23:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cayden Xios
    Styth spiting wrote:
    One other additional bonus to the Orca + Hulk combo is the boosts you receive from Armored Warfare (level V = 10% armor) Siege Warfare (level V = 10% shield cap) Skirmish warfare (level V = 10% ship agility). Granted these boosts wont add much additional protection, but that extra bit of armor/shield + speed could be a deciding factor in surviving long enough for Concord to save your ship.

    Those are not mandatory skills for the orca at all, and to get their effects, all you have to do is the be the squad booster.
    Darthewok wrote:
    Actually, the answer is 2 hulks with maxed cargo expanders and cargo rigs.
    Just mine to cargo (17,199m cubed), dock to unload, warp back, continue mining. No jetcanning at all.
    Think about it, it will beat 1 hulk 1 orca or 1 hulk 1 hauler in output, and actually be easier to manage.
    Your increased number of trips for docking for the hulks is more than covered by the vast increase in output from having 2 hulks not only 1.

    Orca is good for 4-5 hulks, no use with only 1 hulk.

    Until you hit 3 people, swapping out a Hulk for an Orca is generally not a good idea (there are exceptions). Once you hit the 3 people barrier however, I don't have the exact math from when I did it last, but 1 Orca + 2 Hulks will outmine 3 Hulks unless your skills are complete garbage. It doesn't take much to make the Orca a better choice than a third Hulk.
    Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
    Indy Toon Finder wrote:
    you wont last against the larger groups (there was a 50+ destroyer gank crew around last weekend)



    Another example of how these dudes go TOO FAR. This is nothing but KILLBOARD PADDING.

    Mechanics should be changed so that only the deliverer of the Final Blow gets a KM.

    But then the gankers will step in and say "They killed EVE".

    Sorry but, No: YOU killed EVE.

    You wouldn't even have to go that far. Just make it so only the top 3 highest damaging ships get a killmail. Or something like that.
    Styth spiting
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #51 - 2012-03-24 02:59:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Styth spiting
    Darthewok wrote:

    Actually, the answer is 2 hulks with maxed cargo expanders and cargo rigs.
    Just mine to cargo (17,199m cubed), dock to unload, warp back, continue mining. No jetcanning at all.
    Think about it, it will beat 1 hulk 1 orca or 1 hulk 1 hauler in output, and actually be easier to manage.
    Your increased number of trips for docking for the hulks is more than covered by the vast increase in output from having 2 hulks not only 1.

    Orca is good for 4-5 hulks, no use with only 1 hulk.


    Hulk: Max skills, 5% mining implant, 3 MSMII + T2 Pyroxeres crystals, 2 MLU II
    - 1,629.12m3 per msmII per cycle
    - 4,887m3 total per cycle per hulk.
    -97,747m3 total per hour per hulk.

    Orca boosts: 10% yield, -21.56% cycle times (full boosts)
    Orca boosts: 15% yield, -32.34% cycle times (full boosts + Implant)


    Examples below assume the following:


    • Hulk will dump directly into Orca.

    • Dual hulk mining using jetcanning and hauling with a indy at the end of each hour.
    • Non orca Hauler used (2 hulks mining and jet canning, and hauling with an indy ship).
    • Assuming 27,500 cargo hold, and hauling to station in system (general industrial's, trained to IV).
    • Non orca hauling time: 2 minutes round trip + drop off.
    • Orca hauling space 190,000m3.
    • Orca Hauling time: 2 minute round trip + drop off.




    2 Hulks (No boosts)
    195,494 ore per hour.
    7 hauling trips per hour (14 minutes hauling, 5 cycles lost: -24,435m3 ores)
    total yield: 171,059
    total yield per ship: 85,529m3

    2 Hulks, 1 boosting (Mining foreman, 10% yield.)
    215,043 ore per hour
    8 hauling trips per hour (16 minutes hauling, 5.33 cycles lost: -26,047m3 ores)
    total yield: 188,996m3
    total yield per ship: 94,498m3

    2 Hulks, 1 boosting (mindlink implant, 15% yield.)
    224,818.1 ore per hour
    8 hauling trips per hour (16 minutes hauling, 5.33 cycles lost: -26,047m3 ores)
    total yield: 198,771m3
    total yield per ship:99,385m3


    1 Hulk, 1 orca (full boosts)
    130,703m3 ore per hour
    No hauling required this hour (60,000m3 space available).
    total yield: 130,703m3
    total yield per ship:65,351m3

    1 hulk, 1 orca (full boosts + implant)
    148,762 ore per hour
    No hauling required this hour (50,000m3 space available).
    total yield: 148,762m3
    total yield per ship: 74,381m3

    2 hulk, 1 orca (full boosts + implant)
    297,524 ore per hour
    1 hauling trip per hour (2 minutes hauling, 0 cycles lost)
    total yield: 297,524m3
    total yield per ship: 99,174. (More isk per hour per ship if using 3 hulks at this point).


    3 hulk, 1 orca (full boosts + implant)
    446,286 ore per hour
    2 hauling trip per hour (4 minutes hauling, 0 cycles lost)
    total yield: 446,286m3
    Total yield per ship: 111,571
    Tikera Tissant
    #52 - 2012-03-24 17:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tikera Tissant
    I think you have made so odd errors in your calculations and I'm seriously in awe...

    27,500 cargo hold? How on earth can you do that without a magic wand?
    If you mean a can, that takes way longer than a cycle to put that in a station. Since going to station, switching a ship, going back, picking can, again to station, that is not possible in 1 cycle time.

    if you mean hulks, together they will have only 10,580 per hulk, which means just 2 cycles and a bit. Less than 2 if you have one of your chars as a booster.

    The only way your plan can work, is if you jetcan everything, and picking it all up at the end with an orca, which is extremely not viable at all, and a stupid idea at best.

    A hulk with 17199 m3 will also not do 1,629.12 m3, but a lot less as you lose the 2 MLUIIs.


    And finally:
    Those are "perfect" numbers. They do not take into account partial cycles as asteroids are not endlessly full, so in practice you have to trim those numbers by 10-15%. 10% is if you have a good empty system and you mine different belts a day. If you mine the same belt every day, drop those numbers by 15% or more.

    I suggest you re-do all that math.

    Also, you need to remember that you can't only mine Pyroxeres. You will clean the belt in less than an hour, which means you also need to add the travel time to another belt.
    Jorma Morkkis
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #53 - 2012-03-25 15:29:01 UTC
    Tikera Tissant wrote:
    27,500 cargo hold? How on earth can you do that without a magic wand?


    True. Even with T2 cargo rigs, T2 expanders and 9 GSC it's only 26827 m3 Also paper-thin tank = "Gank me" message for easy mode pvpers.
    Styth spiting
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #54 - 2012-03-26 02:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Styth spiting
    Jorma Morkkis wrote:
    Tikera Tissant wrote:
    27,500 cargo hold? How on earth can you do that without a magic wand?


    True. Even with T2 cargo rigs, T2 expanders and 9 GSC it's only 26827 m3 Also paper-thin tank = "Gank me" message for easy mode pvpers.


    Sorry, wasn't referring to the hulk doing the hauling to station, I was referring to swapping out to a industrial ship to haul jetcans.

    if each hulk was simply hauling to station the than the amounts the hulks would be mining would be much much less, with both losing 18% mining yield and wasting cycles through cargoholds filling up, or not being filled up enough.


    Tikera Tissant wrote:

    And finally:
    Those are "perfect" numbers. They do not take into account partial cycles as asteroids are not endlessly full, so in practice you have to trim those numbers by 10-15%. 10% is if you have a good empty system and you mine different belts a day. If you mine the same belt every day, drop those numbers by 15% or more.

    I suggest you re-do all that math.

    Also, you need to remember that you can't only mine Pyroxeres. You will clean the belt in less than an hour, which means you also need to add the travel time to another belt.


    Yeah, the numbers for both setups assume never running out of the specific ore, crystals breaking, rats, ganks, re-positioning, roids being mined out 1/2 way through cycle time, can flippers, etc. but their isn't any other realistic way to (that I know of) to compare the 3 common setups for dual mining like this.

    In the example I posted it was simply Orca + hulk (with additional hulks added to show where the benefits even out with one another), and 2 hulks mining and jet canning. I didn't include 2 hulks mining and dropping off in station since this is the worst way to mine in the game.
    Jorma Morkkis
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #55 - 2012-03-26 04:35:34 UTC
    Styth spiting wrote:
    Sorry, wasn't referring to the hulk doing the hauling to station, I was referring to swapping out to a industrial ship to haul jetcans.


    Two words: can flipping

    Yes, I know it doesn't happen always, but it will happen.
    Styth spiting
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #56 - 2012-03-26 07:31:25 UTC
    Jorma Morkkis wrote:
    Styth spiting wrote:
    Sorry, wasn't referring to the hulk doing the hauling to station, I was referring to swapping out to a industrial ship to haul jetcans.


    Two words: can flipping

    Yes, I know it doesn't happen always, but it will happen.




    2 x hulks unloading to station:

    -309.53m3 per MSMII per cycle using the above posted data (removal of 2 MLU II's or -18%).
    3958.77m3 total per cycle per hulk.
    79175.4m3 total per hour per hulk.
    17,000m3 cargo hold each. (cargo hold opt I x 2, expanded cargo holds II x 2)


    2 hulks, no booster, hauling to station.

    • Every 4 cycles requires a trip to station (17,000/3958.77 = 4.29)
    • 840 seconds to mine and haul 4 cycles worth of ore (15835.08m3).
    • 4 total hualing and mining cycles per hour (4 minutes extra remaining).


    total per hour per hulk: 63,340m3
    Total per hour: 126,680m3
    Total per hour lost: -44,378m3 (combined hulks).
    (Yield lost is roughly equal to 1 hour of mining lost every 3 hours.)



    2 hulks, 1 boosting (10% yield boost), hauling to station.

    • Every 4 cycles requires a trip to station (17,000m3, 419m3 wasted)
    • 840 seconds to mine and haul 4 cycles worth of ore (17,000m3).
    • 4 total hauling and mining cycles per hour.


    total per hour per hulk: 68,000m3
    Total per hour: 136,000m3
    Total per hour lost: -79,043m3 (combined hulks, compared to 2 hulks with 1 boosting data above).
    (Yield lost is roughly equal to 1 hour of mining every 2 hours.)

    Compared to 1 orca with full boosts + implant and one hulk (148,762m3 per hour) = -12,762m3


    1. Meaning 1 orca boosting + implant will yield 12,762m3 more per hour over 2 hulks mining and hauling to station.
    2. Mining and hauling to station has a loss of roughly 3 cans lost to can flipping when using 2 hulks + 1 booster that are switching to a hauler to haul jet cans (I think it would be every 2 jet cans filled).



    Myself personally i'd rather jetcan and enjoy the extra ore and take a chance of a can being flipped every so often.

    And again as said above this data assumes a perfect situation and are rough estimates and not exact since I don't care to put that much effort into finding the data out, its just to show how ineffective mining to station is.
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