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Repair Drones Need Fixed

Author
Fudwap
Questionable Circles
#1 - 2012-02-15 11:41:07 UTC
There was a thread on this on the old forums but it still hasn't been addressed.

You should be able to repair your own ship with repair drones without the need to target yourself.

If people are worried about how it affects ship balance then just make it that you can't use the drones on yourself when you have an aggro timer.

That is all.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-02-15 12:16:35 UTC
Actually, that's a rather nice way of solving the issue.

I'm all for that.
Alexa Coates
Coalition Of Misfits
#3 - 2012-02-15 13:51:05 UTC
This would make ships with amazing tanks already, even harder to kill, such as a domi, myrm, whatever. There is a reason you can't, and its worked for so long.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-02-15 14:00:51 UTC
Alexa Coates wrote:
This would make ships with amazing tanks already, even harder to kill, such as a domi, myrm, whatever. There is a reason you can't, and its worked for so long.


Did you read the entire OP?

Only applicable if you DO NOT have aggro. Ie, you wouldn't be able to use them in fights.

Which as you rightly point out, would be a massive problem if you could (during fights that is).
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#5 - 2012-02-15 14:52:37 UTC
pirates and roamers into 0.0 would love this. However, as far as the aggro timer goes, do you mean the 15 minute aggression timer or the 60 second aggressive action timer? if you use the former, it would limit the usefulness, as you would need to wait 15 minutes. However, if you use the later, you would be able to rep yourself while taking no aggressive action, even if you're being attacked. In my opinion, this would work best if you could only do it after two minutes of taking no aggressive action (including against npcs) or being aggressed in any way (including npcs), however, I don't think there is a timer already in place that currently does that.



I would point out that I don't think implementing this change would be trivial from a technical standpoint.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#6 - 2012-02-15 16:35:16 UTC
All for it, IF you can indeed not use them in combat. It make the tank of most ships unbreakable.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#7 - 2012-02-15 16:48:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
Belthazor4011 wrote:
All for it, IF you can indeed not use them in combat. It make the tank of most ships unbreakable.


Really? So a Domi with 5 heavy armor bots on it has an unbreakable tank? You can't even shoot the armor bots or destroy them?

Alexa Coates wrote:
This would make ships with amazing tanks already, even harder to kill, such as a domi, myrm, whatever. There is a reason you can't, and its worked for so long.


It would also make ships like the Domi lose about 2/3 of their DPS.

Fudwap wrote:
There was a thread on this on the old forums but it still hasn't been addressed.

You should be able to repair your own ship with repair drones without the need to target yourself.

If people are worried about how it affects ship balance then just make it that you can't use the drones on yourself when you have an aggro timer.

That is all.


It would be very useful that's for sure. A right-click > repair self on repper drones would be nice. Your point about it not being available if aggressed is a nice suggestion.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

Skorpynekomimi
#8 - 2012-02-15 16:59:37 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
This would make ships with amazing tanks already, even harder to kill, such as a domi, myrm, whatever. There is a reason you can't, and its worked for so long.


Did you read the entire OP?

Only applicable if you DO NOT have aggro. Ie, you wouldn't be able to use them in fights.

Which as you rightly point out, would be a massive problem if you could (during fights that is).


So, no empire suicide ganks due to a full rack of rep drones on every hulk.
(Although, nothing stops fleets using those on each other.)

You'd also remove an ISK sink from the game; repair bills. Drones are WAY faster than hull reps, and if you can pack a few armour and hull drones, you have quicker repairs. For free.

Carriers would be able to repair structure damage on their own. Supercarriers don't have drones anymore, though.

Aggro timers only come up when you're actively aggressing someone or something. Being ENTIRELY PASSIVE, like an unarmed ship has to be means no timer.
This means orcas. Cyno ships. Mining barges. Bait.

Economic PVP

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#9 - 2012-02-15 17:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
Drones are WAY faster than hull reps, and if you can pack a few armour and hull drones, you have quicker repairs. For free.



WTB hull repper drones

Wacktopia wrote:
Belthazor4011 wrote:
All for it, IF you can indeed not use them in combat. It make the tank of most ships unbreakable.


Really? So a Domi with 5 heavy armor bots on it has an unbreakable tank? You can't even shoot the armor bots or destroy them?

It would also make ships like the Domi lose about 2/3 of their DPS.



don't be dense. It could be quite hard to kill a domi's heavy armor bots because he only loses 5 seconds of rep scooping them and letting them out again (anyone remember damp domis?). Targeting time is not insignificant. Furthermore, he only loses that dps when he needs to be repping, and I shouldn't have to explain the nuances of that.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-02-15 17:55:39 UTC
Skorpynekomimi wrote:

So, no empire suicide ganks due to a full rack of rep drones on every hulk.
(Although, nothing stops fleets using those on each other.)


Er, wut?

First up, high sec ganking is all about alpha due to Concordoken, it's one shot one kill, even 0.5 as you don't get a chance for a second arty salvo.

And rep drones don't exactly boost your EHP do they? Merely repair damage.
Either you've brought enough alpha to one shot or you haven't, repair drones won't make a bit of difference on that front.

Quote:

Aggro timers only come up when you're actively aggressing someone or something. Being ENTIRELY PASSIVE, like an unarmed ship has to be means no timer.
This means orcas. Cyno ships. Mining barges. Bait.


That is a fair enough point regarding timers but:

Orca's: If you're ganking them, chances are you've got more than enough DPS to overwhelm what the rep drones add to the tank, otherwise if they're a war target/in low sec, you'll have them scrambled and can shoot the drones anyway.
Cyno ship: As above.
Barges: Covered.

Bait: If you're planning on engaging a ship you think is bait, then either two situations happen:
1) You've got enough Alpha/DPS to annihilate it before the enemy fleet gets there.
2) You get a fleet dropping in to say hello with pointed sticks and the bait ship has survived.

Besides, out of the standard bait ships, there's not many that are going to field 5 heavy repair drones are there?

Also, drones aren't invincible.
Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#11 - 2012-02-16 00:12:33 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:
Belthazor4011 wrote:
All for it, IF you can indeed not use them in combat. It make the tank of most ships unbreakable.


Really? So a Domi with 5 heavy armor bots on it has an unbreakable tank? You can't even shoot the armor bots or destroy them?.


Oh wow did you eat dumbass pills this morning, unbreakable doesnt exsist, try to read it as intended. Roll

Also shoot them all you want they cost nearly nothing and a Domi can bring a whole lot of spares. Blink


Secondly this function would make more people carry them, which will result in a lot more repper drones in space. So if you are ever in a fight someone might get 10 to 50 if not more repper drones on them. Try to beat a tank like that or try to shoot them all, GL with that one. Twisted

So to sum up so you might actually understand it, it raises the tank of certain ships way to much. (Mega, Geddon etc where drones are only a small part of the DPS yet they can field 5 heavies) And it make them more popular so you'll see more of them and be annoyed by them a lot more.
Fudwap
Questionable Circles
#12 - 2012-02-16 00:31:32 UTC
Batelle wrote:
pirates and roamers into 0.0 would love this. However, as far as the aggro timer goes, do you mean the 15 minute aggression timer or the 60 second aggressive action timer? if you use the former, it would limit the usefulness, as you would need to wait 15 minutes. However, if you use the later, you would be able to rep yourself while taking no aggressive action, even if you're being attacked. In my opinion, this would work best if you could only do it after two minutes of taking no aggressive action (including against npcs) or being aggressed in any way (including npcs), however, I don't think there is a timer already in place that currently does that.



I would point out that I don't think implementing this change would be trivial from a technical standpoint.

I actually meant the 15 minute timer so they are basically gimped in combat.

If I escape with my buffer tanked ship I just want to be able to run away and hide. Wait a bit and then repair my ship without the need to go find a station to stick my reppers back on.
bldyannoyed
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-02-16 12:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: bldyannoyed
A Dominix fitted with DCU II, 2x EANM, EM II, Therm II, Kinetic II and Exp II with 5 Heavy Armor Bot II's repping it has a tank of...

Wait for it................

400 DPS

ZOMG TOTALLY UNKILLABLE !!!!!!!

Seriously, a destroyer could break that, and thats on a completely unrealistic fit.

Scrap 3 of the hardeners leaving you with a more believable dcu/2xeanm/exp fit and its a massive 250 dps tank. Go witht he far more common armor bot I's and its barely 200.

Anyone who thinks thats game breaking is mental but so is anyone who thinks the effort involved in overcoming the (inevitable) technical hurdles needed to get drones to operate on something they cant target is equally mental.
Piatora
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#14 - 2012-02-16 13:05:12 UTC
Belthazor4011 wrote:
Wacktopia wrote:
Belthazor4011 wrote:
All for it, IF you can indeed not use them in combat. It make the tank of most ships unbreakable.


Really? So a Domi with 5 heavy armor bots on it has an unbreakable tank? You can't even shoot the armor bots or destroy them?.


Oh wow did you eat dumbass pills this morning, unbreakable doesnt exsist, try to read it as intended. Roll

Also shoot them all you want they cost nearly nothing and a Domi can bring a whole lot of spares. Blink


Secondly this function would make more people carry them, which will result in a lot more repper drones in space. So if you are ever in a fight someone might get 10 to 50 if not more repper drones on them. Try to beat a tank like that or try to shoot them all, GL with that one. Twisted

So to sum up so you might actually understand it, it raises the tank of certain ships way to much. (Mega, Geddon etc where drones are only a small part of the DPS yet they can field 5 heavies) And it make them more popular so you'll see more of them and be annoyed by them a lot more.



Smartbombs say hello. For every "unkillable" setup there is a hard counter. Don't be deliberatly obtuse. That is like saying "ZOMGZ!! The d00d who has 5 scimi/guardian/basi/onieros repping him can't be killed!!" We all know about ECM, damps, neuts, etc. Don't make blanket PVP statements.
Liam Mirren
#15 - 2012-02-16 13:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Some people need to read the OP better, and some need to learn a bit about EVE and apply logic before opening their mouths (looking at you Skorpy).

The idea of rep drones being able to repair yourself while you're not aggressed is an interesting one, problem is that it only really works for ships that have spare dronebay so it would make balancing a lot more difficult (CCP would have to "nerf" ships with extra dronebay). Interesting, but not sure if it's actually needed.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
#16 - 2012-02-16 14:05:47 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
This would make ships with amazing tanks already, even harder to kill, such as a domi, myrm, whatever. There is a reason you can't, and its worked for so long.


Did you read the entire OP?

Only applicable if you DO NOT have aggro. Ie, you wouldn't be able to use them in fights.

Which as you rightly point out, would be a massive problem if you could (during fights that is).



Actually, I've been in many fights where I never triggered an aggro timer.

The classical example of this happening is when ships turn around to burn back to gate - the attacking ships get an aggro timer (and therefore cannot jump back through the gate) while the ship burning back to the gate has little repper drones doing their thing while they burn to jump through, thus making them harder to kill.

See? Balance is a slippery thing. Intriguing idea though.
Orcirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-02-16 16:15:55 UTC
Cyniac wrote:
Buzzmong wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
This would make ships with amazing tanks already, even harder to kill, such as a domi, myrm, whatever. There is a reason you can't, and its worked for so long.


Did you read the entire OP?

Only applicable if you DO NOT have aggro. Ie, you wouldn't be able to use them in fights.

Which as you rightly point out, would be a massive problem if you could (during fights that is).



Actually, I've been in many fights where I never triggered an aggro timer.

The classical example of this happening is when ships turn around to burn back to gate - the attacking ships get an aggro timer (and therefore cannot jump back through the gate) while the ship burning back to the gate has little repper drones doing their thing while they burn to jump through, thus making them harder to kill.

See? Balance is a slippery thing. Intriguing idea though.

People are severely blowing this out of proportion. Even if rep drones were usable during combat, their effect would be negligible. To give you an idea of just HOW wrong this mentality is:
A single oneiros or 4 rep guardian puts out the same amount of armor repping as FIFTEEN t2 large remote rep drones, without even factoring in leadership bonuses (which boost remote armor reps but not drones).
This means that you lose a whopping 1425 DPS worth of drone power to field the equivalent of a single oneiros, and that's in a best case scenario. If you factor in leadership bonuses, getting enough heavy rep drones to match the repping power of a single oneiros means that you lose out on 3475 DPS (a little over 7.3 flights of heavy drones). There's just no way, even if the game were changed to allow self repping with repair drones, that you would see fleets showing up with waves of them. 6 guys and an oneiros have more DPS and more repping power than 7 who all bring RR drones, so if you want to field more repping in your fleet you will ALWAYS be better off bringing more logis than you would be swapping to rep drones.

It's also worth noting that people won't always have rr drones on them for the same reason they don't fit local reps to fleet ships; if you're flying in a fleet, you fly a fleet fit ship. RR drones just aren't very useful in fleets.

As for the solo pilot, it's already been pointed out, but the repping power of a set of even heavy t2 rep drones on a terribly overtanked dominix does not amount to much, and the domi loses most of its DPS in exchange for this. It's another scenario in which it's just better, both in terms of raw dps and tanking ability, to field something else, for example a hyp. How would the domi with a bit more local tank be overpowered, when this theoretical domi would be doing less DPS, while having less tank, than a well fit hyperion?
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#18 - 2012-02-16 21:15:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Orcirk wrote:

A single oneiros or 4 rep guardian puts out the same amount of armor repping as FIFTEEN t2 large remote rep drones, without even factoring in leadership bonuses (which boost remote armor reps but not drones).
This means that you lose a whopping 1425 DPS worth of drone power to field the equivalent of a single oneiros, and that's in a best case scenario. If you factor in leadership bonuses, getting enough heavy rep drones to match the repping power of a single oneiros means that you lose out on 3475 DPS (a little over 7.3 flights of heavy drones). There's just no way, even if the game were changed to allow self repping with repair drones, that you would see fleets showing up with waves of them. 6 guys and an oneiros have more DPS and more repping power than 7 who all bring RR drones, so if you want to field more repping in your fleet you will ALWAYS be better off bringing more logis than you would be swapping to rep drones.


I'm pretty sure those "leadership" bonuses you're talking about are actually ganglink bonuses from a damnation/legion, so lets forget that idea. Secondly, you're talking about larger fleets, and the topic at hand is how self-repping during combat would affect the combat meta-game. You can already rep other people with drones during combat, so as the fleet gets larger, its pretty obvious that the relevance of self-repping becomes less important (unless its a factor in people deciding to train for t2 rep drones). So really we should only be considering small fleets. Also the numbers you've put up about losing 1425 dps in exchange for 15 rep drones is only assuming you've got a fleet of dominixes each recalling 5 ogre ii's with max skills. So of course its going to be a huge/main source of damage. Let me propose a more reasonable scenario:

3 typhoons. Phoon pilots already have crazy SP in the first place, so its not too unreasonable to assume they'll have t2 repper bots. Phoons also have 175m3 of drone space, so they can each bring 5 heavy armor bots and 50m3 worth of other drones. Now, because they have 15 hammerhead iis instead of 15 ogre iis, they lose half their drone dps (466) when they're going for max dps. When they switch to rep drones, they get the benefit of a full guardian in armor repair. The repping drones can't be neuted or jammed. They're difficult for larger ships to target and kill. And when they do die, the guys using them aren't down a 200m isk ship.

I suppose this example isn't game breaking either. The biggest impact would be in the case of solo buffer-fit battleships. Also making them usable for self repping during combat would pretty well change the entire concept of eve PVE.

Quote:
It's also worth noting that people won't always have rr drones on them for the same reason they don't fit local reps to fleet ships; if you're flying in a fleet, you fly a fleet fit ship. RR drones just aren't very useful in fleets.

Yes, rep drones won't make up for logi in a big fleet, but the reason people don't fit local reps is that they don't want to compromise their EHP buffer, and that decision applies to all kinds of pvp, including solo and small gang. If drones allow a ship to rep itself, it gets a chunk of dps regenerated over a long period of time because of that buffer tank. Also the fit in general won't be gimped by dedicating slots/pg/cpu to local reps.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

SpaceSquirrels
#19 - 2012-02-16 21:22:39 UTC
OOC seems fair.

To the guy who said repair bills as an isk sink... Um people just use a single repper as is. Just keep an armor and hull up in dock. I dont count a single hull and armor repper as an isk sink...
axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#20 - 2012-02-16 22:23:44 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Orcirk wrote:

A single oneiros or 4 rep guardian puts out the same amount of armor repping as FIFTEEN t2 large remote rep drones, without even factoring in leadership bonuses (which boost remote armor reps but not drones).
This means that you lose a whopping 1425 DPS worth of drone power to field the equivalent of a single oneiros, and that's in a best case scenario. If you factor in leadership bonuses, getting enough heavy rep drones to match the repping power of a single oneiros means that you lose out on 3475 DPS (a little over 7.3 flights of heavy drones). There's just no way, even if the game were changed to allow self repping with repair drones, that you would see fleets showing up with waves of them. 6 guys and an oneiros have more DPS and more repping power than 7 who all bring RR drones, so if you want to field more repping in your fleet you will ALWAYS be better off bringing more logis than you would be swapping to rep drones.


I'm pretty sure those "leadership" bonuses you're talking about are actually ganglink bonuses from a damnation/legion, so lets forget that idea. Secondly, you're talking about larger fleets, and the topic at hand is how self-repping during combat would affect the combat meta-game. You can already rep other people with drones during combat, so as the fleet gets larger, its pretty obvious that the relevance of self-repping becomes less important (unless its a factor in people deciding to train for t2 rep drones). So really we should only be considering small fleets. Also the numbers you've put up about losing 1425 dps in exchange for 15 rep drones is only assuming you've got a fleet of dominixes each recalling 5 ogre ii's with max skills. So of course its going to be a huge/main source of damage. Let me propose a more reasonable scenario:

3 typhoons. Phoon pilots already have crazy SP in the first place, so its not too unreasonable to assume they'll have t2 repper bots. Phoons also have 175m3 of drone space, so they can each bring 5 heavy armor bots and 50m3 worth of other drones. Now, because they have 15 hammerhead iis instead of 15 ogre iis, they lose half their drone dps (466) when they're going for max dps. When they switch to rep drones, they get the benefit of a full guardian in armor repair. The repping drones can't be neuted or jammed. They're difficult for larger ships to target and kill. And when they do die, the guys using them aren't down a 200m isk ship.

I suppose this example isn't game breaking either. The biggest impact would be in the case of solo buffer-fit battleships. Also making them usable for self repping during combat would pretty well change the entire concept of eve PVE.

Quote:
It's also worth noting that people won't always have rr drones on them for the same reason they don't fit local reps to fleet ships; if you're flying in a fleet, you fly a fleet fit ship. RR drones just aren't very useful in fleets.

Yes, rep drones won't make up for logi in a big fleet, but the reason people don't fit local reps is that they don't want to compromise their EHP buffer, and that decision applies to all kinds of pvp, including solo and small gang. If drones allow a ship to rep itself, it gets a chunk of dps regenerated over a long period of time because of that buffer tank. Also the fit in general won't be gimped by dedicating slots/pg/cpu to local reps.


What the actual ****, everyone knows rep drones are really really bad, there is absolutely no way that changing rep drones to being able to self-rep will change anything in the game.

For small fleets, if what you assume would be correct, people would already all carry Rep drones, the only difference being that there is 5 missing on them due to not being able to self rep, that little difference is far from game breaking. The truth is everyone knows youre way better off filling your drone bay with a mix of light and heavier damage drones and ecm drones, that will very much always be better.

The only situations where it could be a little better is for solo work or 2-3 man gangs, and right now since in those situations rep drones are never, ever, ever used, well it might just give them a little bit of utility. Drones are extremely easy to shoot down, and in 99% of situations you are better with the extra DPS of actual combat drones then the few dps tank provided by repping drones.

Very very far from game breaking or changing the metagame.
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