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CSM - Do you think? (... continued)

First post First post
Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1 - 2011-09-07 02:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Main things about this thread:

  • Goons and conflict of interest.
  • CSM not having enough high sec, low sec and WH representation.
  • ABC ores and WHs


Conflict of interest

A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other.

Even the definition stressed that in italics!

"Eurogamer: The Council of Stellar Management [CSM] has been increasingly vocal and rebellious in recent months. What's your relationship with them like at the moment - your personal feelings and those of the company as a whole?

Hilmar P├ętursson: The CSM has been under constant evolution based on what's going on in the current environment, what's going on with CCP and Eve, who's on the Council and all that. The CSM has helped greatly through the years in getting feedback for aspects of the game.

But some of my concerns right now relate to whether the CSM is maybe focused on a particular aspect of the game and I'm starting to get feedback from players that they worry the CSM is too pre-occupied by a certain playstyle. That might mean we may need to change the structure, but definitely the CSM has worked as a feedback tool greatly throughout the years. We will have them over at the end of the year, after everything that's gone on, and we will have a chance to talk about that. We'll just see where we are and take it from there."


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-10-21-eurogamer-interviews-ccps-hilmar-petursson-interview


[quoe=Fawcks
TL;DR, short posts./quote]

Goons in:

  • Game
  • CSM
  • CCP staff


= conflict of interest.

To try TL;DR this for others.

Big alliances electing CSMs run the risk of pushing the game to alliance and null sec, while constantly penalising PvE, WH and high sec players.

{Link}Can we separate two things in your minds?


  1. There is Goons and what they do in game or out.
  2. There is Goons and how they have permeated all aspects of the game, creating a conflict of interest.



I have no problem with Goons in general. My problem is with the conflict of interest and thus this thread.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
It is the pervasiveness of {Goons} that troubles me. Largest alliance, so they have big swing in the game. CSM swing, so they "speak for us" then they are in the company so they have control of the game swing.

Doesn't this bother anyone else? People get fired and disbarred as lawyers for conflicts of interest like this.

Further, someone in game mentioned that too many with one mind set can imbalance a game and ruin it. I hope that isn't happening.


Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Ladie Scarlet wrote:

I've seen a lot of people try to explain Goons. None of them have ever been as wrong as you.


Beware the force of perception.

Do you deny that the game has a heavy slant to push people into null sec? Why are they wanting to nerf ABC ores? Isn't the choice to stay in WHs and avoid null sec a prerogative of the customer?
Have to be careful when taking away options.

Getting late here but I am sure you can all find ways that the game pushes and keeps trying to push people into null sec.

Someone was suggesting the other day that null sec should be in the middle of space and the factions at each compass point.


Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The list of CSMs (I was told two have stepped down since the emergency meeting, anyone got confirmation?

Hypothetical possibility

On page 27

What could have happened is
Goons CEO "Get more people into null sec"
Goon staff of CCP "We remove ore so they must come to null sec! CSM Goons back me up"
Goons CSMs "There is much ore coming from WHs"
Other CSMs "Lies!"


Kengutsi Akira wrote:


Being that youre new Id say google "T20 EVE"and "Devs and the friends they keep" (see below) for a record as to why its bad for CCP employees to be in the biggest alliances in EVE

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/op-ed/847-Jumpgate-EVEs-Devs-and-the-Friends-They-Keep


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=230100#post230100

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jita Alt666
#2 - 2011-09-07 02:38:22 UTC
CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2011-09-07 02:43:16 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.

in the first reply and everything
Jenshae Chiroptera
#4 - 2011-09-07 02:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Jita Alt666 wrote:
CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.

Richard Hammond II wrote:
I can argue that my $15 ($30 actually) spends just like anyone else's and itll be spent elsewhere (An Im sure Im not the only one) when the Goons Destroy OUR game (Given they "dont want to destroy THE game, just YOURS") by making higsec unlivable.


I can argue that WH corporations invest as much time and energy. They have to fight off constant pirate invasions and scan for everything. they have to make and manage POS(es)
I can argue that some of my friends invest more time and energy into their high sec characters than 0.0 people do. My one friend for example has been playing EVE for five years and makes 150M a day in high sec from PI, radar sites, ladar sites, mag sites and grav sites. He raids WHs from high sec and since they are predominantly C2 that means he will lose significantly if ABC ores were removed from C2 and C1
Think he is the only one playing like this? Think again.

Right, all that aside:

Want to go the way of the dying game fast?

At what point do you think that new players want to go out to 0.0 space?
- Is it when they are incredibly frustrated from not being able to grow in high sec?
- Is it when they can't afford to buy their capital ships when you ruin WHs?

You see if you ruin high sec and WHs, you are ripping the newbie uterus out of EVE and feeding it to the big alliances. When it is gone, they will starve and die.

Side note

Mikhail Glatinov wrote:
and you guys complain about russians??

Not to mention VILE RAT bots aswell? hahahahh

let's see how goons damage controll this one

evenews24 expose goons RTM/bot ring

Comrade Commizzar wrote:
The metagaming aspect of Eve is actually greater than the game itself and this is made worse by CCP's unwillingness or inability to design around it. This is not good for Eve and is detrimental to attracting new subscribers. The "Moons=Plex=Cap Fleet=Sovereignty=Moons" Syndrome excludes new blood from participating. Once the new subscriber figures this out, he either quits or limits his game play to WH, trading, or industrial activities mostly in highsec.
.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jita Alt666
#5 - 2011-09-07 02:52:25 UTC
I can argue that unless you have dealt with the logistics of fitting fleet ships for a 1000man alliance when the nearest market hub is 24 gates away while under constant encroachment by enemy roaming gangs, that you little about time and energy investment.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#6 - 2011-09-07 02:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I can argue that unless you have dealt with the logistics of fitting fleet ships for a 1000man alliance when the nearest market hub is 24 gates away while under constant encroachment by enemy roaming gangs, that you little about time and energy investment.


Learn to delegate {more} and exaggerate less.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-09-07 02:58:03 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

At what point do you think that new players want to go out to 0.0 space?
- Is it when they are incredibly frustrated from not being able to grow in high sec?
- Is it when they can't afford to buy their capital ships when you ruin WHs?
.

It's not very difficult for newbies to get into low/null when they're determined to do so.
I jumped into 0.0 within a month of chargen. A friend of mine was attacking ships in a rifter until a pirate corp scooped him up while he was still in trial.
Deklein Coalition takes in thousands and thousands of newbies brought in from their "home" forum communities.

Hisec doesn't really protect newbies necessarily. Like you said, it protects 5-year veterans who want to make 150M ISK a day without risking anything or incurring cost.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#8 - 2011-09-07 03:01:44 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Throw newbies in at the deep end and to Sansha space with the ones that drown!

Basically.

Think how many steps CCP have taken to ensure that high sec is safer?
Think how many newbies would hit a warp bubble, die and quit?

Not everyone goes at the same pace, leave options open.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-09-07 03:20:46 UTC

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Throw newbies in at the deep end and to Sansha space with the ones that drown!

Basically.

Think how many steps CCP have taken to ensure that high sec is safer?
Think how many newbies would hit a warp bubble, die and quit?

Not everyone goes at the same pace, leave options open.

Options for individual playstyle should be respected, but recognizing that EVE is a world driven by players' actions balanced against one another is paramount.

Should EVE have a place where newbies can get a handle of the game? Absolutely.
Does it follow that that same place have a near-monopoly on low-end mineral mining, ice mining, T1 and T2 manufacturing, logistics, etc. due to its safety? Not really.

This is a separate issue from what we started with though (why CCP wants players in 0.0) which JitaAlt summed up quite well.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#10 - 2011-09-07 03:25:24 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Does it follow that that same place have a near-monopoly on low-end mineral mining, ice mining, T1 and T2 manufacturing, logistics, etc. due to its safety? Not really.

So you want to put the building blocks that would help them step into null sec beyond their reach? Roll

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-09-07 03:27:01 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Does it follow that that same place have a near-monopoly on low-end mineral mining, ice mining, T1 and T2 manufacturing, logistics, etc. due to its safety? Not really.

So you want to put the building blocks that would help them step into null sec beyond their reach? Roll

Roll
Digital Messiah
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2011-09-07 03:29:06 UTC
I doubt CCP soundwave is risking his means to stay afloat IRL for the whims of goons. Would you risk the job that pays your rent, utilities, and food bill, just to make a club your involved in happy.

This isn't fight club, THIS IS Ceeee Ceee Peeeeeeeeee.

Something clever

Mehrdad Kor-Azor
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-09-07 03:37:47 UTC
The reason the big powerblocs get their delegates in the CSM is because they are all organized behind their candidate(s). If other groups want delegates to represent them, then they just need to get the word out, get people to sign in the voting mechanism, whatever. It won't be as easy for Joe W-space to be elected as it would be for The Mittani, but it's certainly possible.

In short, all the problems you describe in the CSM can be alleviated with effort in (I hate this phrase) 'getting the vote out'.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#14 - 2011-09-07 03:38:01 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
I doubt CCP soundwave is risking ....

Fair enough and let me be clear. I am not saying that Goons are messing with things and pulling puppet strings. I am suggesting there is a conflict of interest and that the possibility for abuse exists.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#15 - 2011-09-07 03:49:03 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.


Conversely they RMT the most and bot the most, which costs CCP the most money.

Also, every previous QEN contradicts your statement.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#16 - 2011-09-07 03:49:14 UTC
I can argue that my $15 ($30 actually) spends just like anyone else's and itll be spent elsewhere (An Im sure Im not the only one) when the Goons Destroy OUR game (Given they "dont want to destroy THE game, just YOURS") by making higsec unlivable.

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.

Harold Tuphlos
The Dark Space Initiative
Initiative Mercenaries
#17 - 2011-09-07 03:54:29 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Digital Messiah wrote:
I doubt CCP soundwave is risking ....

Fair enough and let me be clear. I am not saying that Goons are messing with things and pulling puppet strings. I am suggesting there is a conflict of interest and that the possibility for abuse exists.

And this is Eve so that is good....
Jenshae Chiroptera
#18 - 2011-09-07 03:56:30 UTC
Harold Tuphlos wrote:
And this is Eve so that is good....

Explain? Sometimes it sounds better in your head than written down for others to read.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-09-07 04:11:51 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I can argue that unless you have dealt with the logistics of fitting fleet ships for a 1000man alliance when the nearest market hub is 24 gates away while under constant encroachment by enemy roaming gangs, that you little about time and energy investment.



so u jump 10 JF from ur 0.0 station to lowsec bordering highsec, warp to gate, fill on stuff scout the lowsec gate then cyno back

hell
ESCORT YOUR ****, u know, caps on standby, 100 or so battleships
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-09-07 04:23:29 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I can argue that unless you have dealt with the logistics of fitting fleet ships for a 1000man alliance when the nearest market hub is 24 gates away while under constant encroachment by enemy roaming gangs, that you little about time and energy investment.



so u jump 10 JF from ur 0.0 station to lowsec bordering highsec, warp to gate, fill on stuff scout the lowsec gate then cyno back

hell
ESCORT YOUR ****, u know, caps on standby, 100 or so battleships

lmao
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