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Why are the best newbie corps closed to the public?

Author
Magic Missiles
#1 - 2012-02-05 09:07:20 UTC
I started playing EVE because of what I read about nullsec. Fleets and epic battles piqued my interest. So I made my first steps by joining a training corp. Extremely nice people, very good start to the game. I recommend OUCH to anyone who is new and I hope that nobody confuses what I am talking about in my title with groups like OUCH and EVE UNI.

What I am talking about are the nullsec corps/alliances who are not explicitly around to train rookies. To the best of my knowledge, the most newb-friendly corps outside of the previously mentioned niche are Goonswarm Federation and TEST Alliance. And again, to the best of my knoweldge, both groups find members through their own private communities rather than the new player population in general. I realize this is most likely due to the issue of spies. Being generous to a "new player," who is in-fact a member of some rival corporation would be bad, but what length does a legitimate new player need to go to in order to find some similar level of newbie acceptance in a more public group?

I've browsed forum posts in the recruitment section, spent hours chatting with players in the recruitment channel, even signed up and done some reading on third party forums to get a better idea of who is who and where I should be looking. Nothing so far has really shown up on my radar as both large and established, but willing to take on new players and provide them with the support they need in order to survive and proliferate in nullsec.

Some corps make it to the half-way point. They encourage new players to join them and even teach you a thing or two about their particular style of combat, however, they are for the most part small and really have little to no way of providing a newbie access to the ships and modules he needs to stay in the fight. My first forray into a corp of this kind was fun, but I ended up spending a lot of time being scourged by the constant need to find some source of income. Buying things in nullsec was expensive, going back to empire every time I need a ship was out of the question.

So the question remains burning in my mind: Am I looking for a unicorn here? Are all the universally helpful alliances either training corps or private shops? Is there a publicly recruiting alliance that has ship replacement and other essentials necessary to keeping a lowly newb such as myself flying in fleets rather than continuously worrying about how and where he'll buy his next rifter?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-02-05 09:23:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
In addition to the spy thing you mentioned, TEST and Goonswarm enjoy a high player retention due to their recruitment from an out-of-EVE community, the already existing social bonds making it more worthwhile to spend the time it takes molding and training a player from newbie all the way into an FC.

General EVE players are much more mercenary and are just as likely to leave for greener pastures then to stick it out with the corp/alliance that trained them once they've felt they're ready to move on or are limited by their new or the corp has simply hit hard times and now would be a good time to leave. This is why it's much easier for a character or corporation already situated in null, even as a former foe, gets much higher priority then a rookie. Veterans are just as feckless as rookies, but at least you won't have to hold their hand or manufacture them ships.
Magic Missiles
#3 - 2012-02-05 09:33:37 UTC
I do understand, somewhat, that dimension of it. However; for all the things I had read it seemed that those corporation were chomping at the bit for new players to join them. Is there some kind of grand hypocrisy being touched on here or am I missing something more nuanced in the transition from true newbie to active member of the nullsec community.
Humidor Cigarillo
#4 - 2012-02-05 09:44:13 UTC
I wouldn't say it's a "grand," hypocrisy. Just the way the game mechanics have structured sov. and the people who live with it on a daily basis. The way I see it you have two options:

Option a: You go spend some time making friends with people on somethingawful or reddit and run the risk of being branded a J4G, meaning joined for guild, who will be scammed and run out.

Option b: You accept the fact that you're an untrustworthy liability and your early months, perhaps your first year, are better spent in empire. That doesn't mean you have to avoid pvp or going out into null on a regular basis, but you'll find lowsec has a LOT more opportunities for you as a youngster.
Valei Khurelem
#5 - 2012-02-05 09:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Here's what I propose if you absolutely want to get into PvP ( I personally don't see why anyone would want to with how things are currently but there you go ) make some good friends in high sec you can trust, get about 20 or 30 of them even if they're in high sec corps and just have fun blasting your way through the inevitable gate campers that will be there looking for easy kills.

Seriously, if high sec players did this, 0.0 players would be hiding in their sovereignty all the time since EVE is a numbers game and they know it, even if they aren't willing to admit so. Most high sec players don't realise just how many of them there are compared to 0.0 players and they have their own economy so the losses would be pretty minimal if they kept their standings up.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium

Magic Missiles
#6 - 2012-02-05 09:55:10 UTC
Yeah this just gets more depressing by the post.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-02-05 10:06:12 UTC
Magic Missiles wrote:
Yeah this just gets more depressing by the post.

FYI: I wouldn't really take NPC forum alts' advise as a source of reliable information.

There's no real "grand hypocrisy" involved as far as I can see. It's just that the 'large, established alliances' you're looking to join got to be large and established by having dedicated, talented and above all reliable players. They fought off everyone else who wanted the space that they live in. Having the assets that they do, they get their pick of the nullsec talent pool, and it's a lot more time effective to just pick guys who are already established as reliable nullsec pilots then recruit a liability and a potential spy in the hope that in half a year they'll be able to do their part as part of a fleet. The alliances you mentioned are special cases, for reasons I already mentioned.

Small corporations who don't have much to offer recruits will take who they can get. Your fortunes are linked with theirs and you can either make connections to establish your eligibility when applying to better corps or work hard to raise the level of prosperity of the corp you're in. Good luck finding somewhere if you're expecting a free ride however.
Magic Missiles
#8 - 2012-02-05 10:13:15 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Small corporations who don't have much to offer recruits will take who they can get. Your fortunes are linked with theirs and you can either make connections to establish your eligibility when applying to better corps or work hard to raise the level of prosperity of the corp you're in. Good luck finding somewhere if you're expecting a free ride however.


Such a corporation is fine by me, but I fail to see the connection between a "free ride," and actually having ships and modules available for me to use. Not even free, I mean just buying them. Do you realize how many of those small corps simply want newbies to supply their own frigates out to some deep nullsec system? Imagine making 20+ jumps a night to get a new ship that costs you 150% of what you can earn in a night of shooting rats and scavenging from wrecks. I do this on a regular basis right now. It isn't sustainable. It is absolutely draining and the opposite of the fun that I enjoy when I actually get to roam.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-02-05 10:17:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
If getting stations and supplies is a problem in your current corp, have you considered switching over to a corp based in Providence? They have like 50+ stations in one region, don't travel much and are very familiar with working with new players. downside: you must obey the NRDS code and help dispense space-justice to criminals
Magic Missiles
#10 - 2012-02-05 10:19:01 UTC
I'd love to find a corp in a place like that. Can you suggest any I should contact?
Plutonian
Intransigent
#11 - 2012-02-05 10:19:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Plutonian
Magic Missiles wrote:
... My first forray into a corp of this kind was fun, but I ended up spending a lot of time being scourged by the constant need to find some source of income. Buying things in nullsec was expensive, going back to empire every time I need a ship was out of the question.

So the question remains burning in my mind: Am I looking for a unicorn here? Are all the universally helpful alliances either training corps or private shops? Is there a publicly recruiting alliance that has ship replacement and other essentials necessary to keeping a lowly newb such as myself flying in fleets rather than continuously worrying about how and where he'll buy his next rifter?

I understand what you're asking, but the quoted section above sent warning bells off in my mind.

There are no corps I am aware of, in Empire, Lowsec, or Null, which will provide you ships and modules, freeing you from ever having to generate isk. Every serious corporation I have ever seen requires their pilots to be self-sufficient to some degree.

EDIT: NM... you addressed this point before I could post. I misunderstood.
Humidor Cigarillo
#12 - 2012-02-05 10:39:47 UTC
Magic Missiles wrote:
I'd love to find a corp in a place like that. Can you suggest any I should contact?


I'm aware of a few lolrp corps who take a special interest in newbies. Check for them in Cultores Veritas Alliance aka CVA, as they are the resident fungus that simply cannot be removed from providence for very long.
Mysteriax
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-02-05 10:53:41 UTC
The Graduates is a corp which trains newer members.
There are some skillpoint requirements but they are lower if you went to eve university.
5 mil SP if you went to eve university 15 mil sp otherwise.

-TGRAD Pub- is our recruitment channel. The corp has about 300 people so its not really that small :).
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-02-05 11:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Azala
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
General EVE players are much more mercenary and are just as likely to leave for greener pastures then to stick it out with the corp/alliance that trained them once they've felt they're ready to move on or are limited by their new or the corp has simply hit hard times and now would be a good time to leave.




I would not say that's necessarily true.

Quite often new players leave starter NPC corps only to find that they've joined a corp that has over 100 members yet only about 10 actually play and that's on a good day.


If a corp is active and involves the new person in their activities rather than using them to just make up the corp numbers, then as long as the corp's playstyle is similar to the new player's, the new player is more likely to stay.


One of the problems is that there are many corps that have effectively a lot of phantom members (ex players or player that might drop in once and awhile), so it can be a bit of a minefield at trying to find a good corp that suits their purpose.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#15 - 2012-02-05 13:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
You are looking for Unicorns.. well we take noobies go find unicorns and kill them in fire.

http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12342632

The deal is, pretty much no one is going to pay for you to learn PVP and the grind for ISK is something everyone has to do at some point or another. Added to this it's pretty time consuming to train new guys, so I suggest you read and do as much as possible on your own.

People are more willing to recruit new players if you can demonstrate that you have a basic understanding of PVP or at very least have ability to provide something useful to them. Meaning if you aren't in a corp already, that has a basic plan of what you should train toward, then you should take it on yourself to train some basic useful combat ship.

The reality is a new player isn't going to offer the average PVP corp much if anything except a lot of losses on their KB. So you need to find a corp or group that either has a use for new players or has a interest in training them.

We are a Faction War Militia corp that has been recruiting a lot of new guys and tossing them in Thrashers. It's the best way we have been able to come up with, for a solution on how to turn new players into useful members of a gang. We have a basic skill plan that you can train in about 3 days but we expect you to fill out that skill plan to improve the ship using T2 mods and train toward BC's.

We are doing this now, to fill out our numbers, the easiest way to do that was to go after new players and spend a bit of effort on training them rather than compete with other established corps for experienced PVPers. In short we found a reason and a need to use new players then figured out how to use them as effectively as possible.

I can't say how long we will actively recruit new players as it's hell on the KB stats as well as very time consuming. However if you are looking for a PVP corp that will recruit new players, then send us an app (but we aren't paying for your ship losses lol).

I mentioned above we are in Faction War so it's a lot of low sec PVP, including killing pies or maybe even going pie from time to time, but we live very close to Syndicate and often pop our heads out there or into other local null sec areas as well. We are also looking for experienced players that are interested in training or even players wanting to give it a go at FCing gangs.

edit..

Just wanted to say we base out of Caldari high sec (for now), so it's a very easy trip to Jita, but we also try to keep a lot of extra Thrashers on hand. We typically have a bunch already fitted in our home system that you can buy for basic costs.
Katrina Bekers
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2012-02-05 14:50:49 UTC
Magic Missiles wrote:
Do you realize how many of those small corps simply want newbies to supply their own frigates out to some deep nullsec system? Imagine making 20+ jumps a night to get a new ship that costs you 150% of what you can earn in a night of shooting rats and scavenging from wrecks. I do this on a regular basis right now. It isn't sustainable. It is absolutely draining and the opposite of the fun that I enjoy when I actually get to roam.

Welcome to EVE. You are indeed new.

Welcome to a game where 90% of your gaming time is "work", or waiting for something to happen - a skill to finish, a job to complete, a rat to respawn. Where the tedious activities give you enough resources, you can enjoy the remaining 10% of your game time. Don't be fooled by the awesome youtube trailers. Unless you want to go the bot way, THIS is how the game works.

There's a reason why every corp, every alliance, every group puts in their recruitment ads "self sufficient" as requisite. You can be given free ships and modules, but if you are in for the long ride, you must absolutely stop thinking that EVE is some sort of glorified Unreal Tournament - where your own respawns are "free" - and learn to deal with a game designed from the ground up with the notion that a loss should bear consequences, that you're free to purchase anything anywhere, but also to find "empty shelves", that you're given enough rope to hang yourself.

Welcome to the sandbox. You're not required to play. But if you want to stay, these are the unwritten, unadvertised rules. Everyone and his mom would love to just login/shoot/logout, as if EVE was some F2P space version of World of Tanks. But this is not what you'd find in your career. Unless you literally buy your way into the game with PLEXes, or bot the living sheet out of your accounts.

Some weeks ago, a funny-but-not-so-much picture by a famous spaceblogger made a good tour of the intarwebs. Let it shine a beam of awareness unto you:

http://jestertrek.com/eve/blog/2012/evefun.png

Lastly, but definitely not least, being a lowly cog in one of the superalliances you mentioned, let me share the word of our propaganda overlords. Take it as a "counter" to the jaw-dropping-but-blatantly-false trailers that tell you about epic fights and destiny in your own hands. If you stick with the game, maybe one day you'll thank me:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=96b7Jk5xCTQ

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>

Orion Guardian
#17 - 2012-02-05 15:03:41 UTC
Oh how I love TEST and Goons Propaganda, they pu alot more thought behind it than most of the "enemy" Alliances I know.

(not naming anything of course)
Valei Khurelem
#18 - 2012-02-05 15:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
Everyone and his mom would love to just login/shoot/logout, as if EVE was some F2P space version of World of Tanks.


I was with you right up until the moment you made it out that being able to log in for five minutes and shoot stuff would be a bad thing and compare it to something like World of Tanks. There's a reason why counter-strike and games like it have still been going strong after ten years.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium

Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#19 - 2012-02-05 15:30:17 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Quote:
Everyone and his mom would love to just login/shoot/logout, as if EVE was some F2P space version of World of Tanks.


I was with you right up until the moment you made it out that being able to log in for five minutes and shoot stuff would be a bad thing and compare it to something like World of Tanks. There's a reason why counter-strike and games like it have still been going strong after ten years.


But not every game needs to be a Counterstrike. World of Tanks or WoW.
Catalyst XI
A.G. Vulcan Stettin
#20 - 2012-02-05 15:53:02 UTC
so basically you're looking for some cheap pvp? Well best advice i can give is join RvB. Tons of small gang and fleet pvp. Best part is almost all the fights are with cruiser and lower class ships. This means even players who started the game only a week ago can join and have some fun from day 1 in RvB, and it also means it doesn't cost much when you lose your ship, so you can do more pvp and less grinding for isk. Also RvB has a free/cheap ship purchasing programs to help with some of the cost.

Ive been in RvB for only a couple days and it is without a doubt the most fun Ive ever had in eve. Nobody is gonna rail you for being a poor ass newbie who can only fit a rifter with meta 3 t1 mods. Also all the FC's and other pilots Ive flown with so far all seem to be really nice guys who don't mind explaining stuff to the new guys.

So i suggest, forgetting about 0.0 for awhile and come sharpen your teeth in RvB.

o7
CXI
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