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Missiles and the Doppler Effect

Author
Garphunkle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-01-15 21:56:04 UTC
First of all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

My question being, are missile explosion velocities / travel speeds effected by the doppler effect? For example if I am traveling at 500m/sec towards an unmoving target and shoot a missile that travels 3000m/sec will that missile be traveling at 3500m/sec along its 10 second flight time or will it only do 3000m/sec? Conversely, if I am fleeing a rabid blaster ship will it reduce my overall DPS because my 500m/s is acting against my explosion velocity? Also if I have this whole science thing dead wrong, please be polite. - Garph
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#2 - 2012-01-15 22:08:29 UTC
Turrets are direct damage - you fire, it hits. Your ROF is 3 seconds, it hits every 3 seconds exactly when you fired it. If you're moving it doesn't really matter.

OTOH, missile actually travel towards your target. Thus, if you are going 5km/s towards your target and you are firing missiles that go 5km/s... all of your missiles will hit at roughly the same time.

Basically: yes, the Doppler effect works for short term DPS increases.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#3 - 2012-01-15 22:55:42 UTC
Relative motion is the name, I think. Doppler effect is for waves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_motion#Relative_motion

I was so confused by this, Liang are you saying that if my velocity towards a target is x my missile velocity is y the actual velocity to target is x+y?

DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#4 - 2012-01-15 23:04:19 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
Check out the cavalry Raven.
You used to be able to massively increase alpha by MWDing towards your target at the same speed as your torps.
stoicfaux
#5 - 2012-01-15 23:18:08 UTC
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
Relative motion is the name, I think. Doppler effect is for waves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_motion#Relative_motion

I was so confused by this, Liang are you saying that if my velocity towards a target is x my missile velocity is y the actual velocity to target is x+y?



No speed adding. This isn't real physics.

Liang is saying that if your ships flies as fast as your missiles, you can speed to your target and the missiles you launch along the way will all hit at the same time.

Made up numbers for overly dramatic example:
Ship speed: 5,000 m/s
Missile speed: 5,000 m/s
Target speed: 0 m/s
25km from target: At 00:00, launch missile, which will hit in 5 seconds or at 00:05
20km from target: At 00:01, launch missile, which will hit in 4 seconds or at 00:05
15km from target: At 00:02, launch missile, which will hit in 3 seconds or at 00:05
10km from target: At 00:03, launch missile, which will hit in 2 seconds or at 00:05
5km from target: At 00:04, launch missile, which will hit in 1 seconds or at 00:05
0km from target: At 00:05, launch missile, which will hit in 0 seconds or at 00:05

All six volleys hit at once at 00:05. If your ship didn't move, then all the missiles would have hit one second apart, over six seconds (from 00:05 through 00:10.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

river Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-01-16 04:14:35 UTC
oh i wish this was true.....we would see countless alpha ravens
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#7 - 2012-01-16 05:01:49 UTC
river Zateki wrote:
oh i wish this was true.....we would see countless alpha ravens


Like I said in the thread that undoubtedly spawned this one: it works best with stealth bombers.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Tyroch Jovakko
Auream Regulam
#8 - 2012-01-16 05:26:53 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
river Zateki wrote:
oh i wish this was true.....we would see countless alpha ravens


Like I said in the thread that undoubtedly spawned this one: it works best with stealth bombers.

-Liang


stealth bombers and the raven both get a velocity bonus to the torps.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#9 - 2012-01-16 06:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Tyroch Jovakko wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
river Zateki wrote:
oh i wish this was true.....we would see countless alpha ravens


Like I said in the thread that undoubtedly spawned this one: it works best with stealth bombers.

-Liang


stealth bombers and the raven both get a velocity bonus to the torps.


Its more about the mobility of the ship in question. Consider the case of a Manticore with MWD firing CN Jugs at a stationary bait Drake tackled at zero by a Taranis in a belt. The Manticore starts the run at 80km and approaches at 2600 for ~25 seconds.

The stationary Manticore normally does 650 DPS under these conditions, but suddenly accelerates towards the Drake:
- Missile #1 is launched at 70km and will arrive at T=15.5 + 6.85 * 0 = 15.5
- Missile #2 is launched at 52km and will arrive at T=11.5 + 6.85 * 1 = 18.35
- Missile #3 is launched at 34km and will arrive at T=7.5 + 6.85 * 2 = 21.2
- Missile #4 is launched at 16km and will arrive at T=3.5 + 6.85 * 3 = 24.05

So between T=15.5 and 24.05 (8.55 sec) the Manticore deals 17,848 damage for a total of 2,087 DPS.

Compare this to if the Manticore had sat still:
- Missile #1 is launched at 70km and will arrive at T=15.5 + 6.85 * 0 = 15.5
- Missile #2 is launched at 70km and will arrive at T=15.5 + 6.85 * 1 = 22.35
- Missile #3 is launched at 70km and will arrive at T=15.5 + 6.85 * 2 = 29.2
- Missile #4 is launched at 70km and will arrive at T=15.5 + 6.85 * 3 = 36.05

So between T=15.5 and 36.05 (20.55 sec) the Manticore deals 17848 damage for a total of 868 DPS

Any questions?

-Liang

Ed: We did this to this Drake: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=1565

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
#10 - 2012-01-16 09:39:55 UTC
Works awesome when you BLOPs a bomber gang onto a target BS and everyone hoof it directly to the target with torps overloaded.
Kagan Storm
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-01-16 17:06:19 UTC
I was thinking about this for like 3 months now... Thank you for confirming i know what missiles are for now... gona go train torps... bb... Bear


Hmm is it just me or have we just invented ramming maneuver? Shocked

My ego is the the size of my carriers jump range.

Goose99
#12 - 2012-01-16 17:10:29 UTC
MWDing towards target in a straight line in SB... There's gonna be a lot of popped bombers.Lol
Alua Oresson
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2012-01-16 17:18:07 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
MWDing towards target in a straight line in SB... There's gonna be a lot of popped bombers.Lol


That's one issue I'd see with it. If there was another torp platform that could get significant speed I could probably see it. But does a Raven or a 'Phoon have the speed to do that? Hmmm, nanophoon.

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#14 - 2012-01-16 17:34:25 UTC
Alua Oresson wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
MWDing towards target in a straight line in SB... There's gonna be a lot of popped bombers.Lol


That's one issue I'd see with it. If there was another torp platform that could get significant speed I could probably see it. But does a Raven or a 'Phoon have the speed to do that? Hmmm, nanophoon.



You can get a nanophoon up close to 2km/s as well I think - but you lack the range to take advantage of it. Maybe with Javs?

-Liang

Ed: Hell, even cruise might have decent DPS if you cavalry them off of a phoon.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
The Weekend Warriors
#15 - 2012-01-16 17:54:46 UTC
Why, oh why wasn't the tornado allowed to keep it's torps?
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#16 - 2012-01-16 18:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
What you're looking at there is just condensing the impact time of your missiles- the DPS from the time you start firing till the last missile hit is still going to be the same. That gives you a bit of burst control at the time of impact, although not enough to be useful imo since it's still almost 10 secs duration, and certainly not enough to make up for your immediate death by MWD directly toward a target.

You will also see apparent variation in missile range due to relative motion, depending on whether your target is moving towards you etc. Placed on a line, the missile travels the same distance always, but your ship and your target are moving which means the range displayed on the overview is not necessarily the range that the missile travels. So you'll get "longer" range if they are moving toward you, and "shorter" if moving away. (ex: range is 50km. target is approaching you, fire at 60km. add travel time, target is at 50km at time of impact. range appears to be 60km.)
Garphunkle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-01-17 02:19:58 UTC
Liang is right, I did ask this question for clarification on something she posted elsewhere but I couldn't find it again. Because I fly a Drake this really makes no difference but thanks for all the other things you told me about.