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How Do I Deal With Ninja Salvagers?

Author
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-01-04 20:54:16 UTC
There's a few Russian corps, in the Citadel, and outlying systems, that go into other peoples missions and salvage their wrecks, they don't loot, that way you can't kill them without suicide ganking. Really Lame. So, one's only real recourse is to leave to a system far away, enough people leave where they're at these Russians will no doubt leave in search of them and like a plague they'll continue to, harass, other players by stealing from them. I think it'd be nice if we'd be able to kill people who steal from us, people who do so by salvaging our wrecks. Call me a carebear or whatever, but it really is ridiculous that they're allowed to outright steal from others. Being a new player and all I don't have many options with dealing with them. Apart from buying Plexes to hire mercs to wardec any and all Russians, I don't know what I could do. Would CCP even patch it so that people who salvage other people wrecks would be 'stealing'? I mean, it was hard enough learning this game, building up enough isk to get my first BC, but now there's these Dbags stealing from me in the only way I'm trained to make isk...Is there something I don't know about, a way to deal with these parasites efficiently?
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-01-04 21:02:55 UTC
The wrecks aren't yours, and they make the place look terrible. They must be cleaned up fast or property values will plummet!

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
#3 - 2012-01-04 21:04:03 UTC
As long as they only salvage, there's not much you can do to them. You can move to another agent however. If you choose to stay, then they can continue to take your salvage, as salvage is not 'owned' by anyone currently, just the cargo.

You do also have the option of counter-griefing. When they enter your grid, just start blowing up your wrecks and wait for them to leave, or try to get a fresh spawn of rats to target them.

"Music is a mysterious thing. Sometimes it makes people remember things they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember or not." - Citan Uzuki, Xenogears

Marduk Nibiru
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-01-04 21:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Marduk Nibiru
* War dec them so you can pop their salvage vessels (of course puts you at risk as well)
* Warp out when there's a spawn, hopefully with scramming frigs.
* Have a suicide alt available...get up to them, warp him in and pop-em.
* Have lower SP corp members vacuum your field as you go...they often love to as they need ISK and standing.
* Realize that this is part of the game and deal.

That's about it.

Oh, and learn to blitz. You can make more money warping in, blowing up one rat, and turning in the mission than clearing the whole field much of the time. Keep doing that to them and they'll probably tend not to follow you much.
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-01-04 21:45:49 UTC
I guess this is one of the reasons Eve doesn't have that many people playing. Someone can get past the learning curve, has the patience for planning training, and then there's gameplay that allows other players to steal from them without any consequences. So, I'm a new player, and my only options are either to be passive aggressive and run away whenever they're around, to get a 2nd acc and train an alt just to deal with them, or buy plex to hire mercs to wardec, or somehow, find some corp in Null who will recruit a low sp noob and leave behind all the people I've met so far. All of those solutions are lame by any standard...How can they be seen as acceptable solutions? Maybe I'm just too accustomed to shooters, and dealing directly with people whose actions produce enmity towards them, but I've never been one to just bend over and take it. I'm rather baffled why CCP allows a situation like this, someone care to explain why this needs to be IG?
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#6 - 2012-01-04 21:54:38 UTC
Salvaging your wrecks isn't stealing! If they loot your wrecks it is and you're allowed to shoot at them... so there is consequences.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
Wild Geese.
#7 - 2012-01-04 21:54:54 UTC
SnowxCrash wrote:
I guess this is one of the reasons Eve doesn't have that many people playing. Someone can get past the learning curve, has the patience for planning training, and then there's gameplay that allows other players to steal from them without any consequences. So, I'm a new player, and my only options are either to be passive aggressive and run away whenever they're around, to get a 2nd acc and train an alt just to deal with them, or buy plex to hire mercs to wardec, or somehow, find some corp in Null who will recruit a low sp noob and leave behind all the people I've met so far. All of those solutions are lame by any standard...How can they be seen as acceptable solutions? Maybe I'm just too accustomed to shooters, and dealing directly with people whose actions produce enmity towards them, but I've never been one to just bend over and take it. I'm rather baffled why CCP allows a situation like this, someone care to explain why this needs to be IG?


Real life is really friggin hard; If you leave your backpack open in the middle of the street, with your iPad showing, some **** is going to come by and take it.

Eve theft occurs only when you let it.

Canflippers take your mined ore that you put in a jetcan -- to make you fire back in your effectively defenseless mining ship, so they can fire back. They don't do it for your ore. Get a secure canister and they won't be able to take anything.

Ninja salvagers take your mission loot/salvage -- big deal, simply blitzing Lv4 missions will pay you out far more than going around and collecting the loot will. Ninjas don't do it for the profit, they do it to get you to shoot them, so they can shoot back. Or to troll you and make you sad. Trust me, I've done it.

Ignoring them gives them a few million ISK of loot, while you continue doing your crazy profitable mission in peace. If you really want that loot/salvage, get one of those people you've met so far to come along in a Noctis and collect everything.

If you want to "deal directly" with looters/salvagers, get in a corp. People stealing from you allows your whole corp to fire on that person, so you can set up fun traps for them. You don't have to "bend over and take it", you just should think before punching back, and calculate your punch to hurt more than theirs.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro
#8 - 2012-01-04 21:56:04 UTC
Or train some probing skills and have at it yourself.


Use the agent finder to find another agent of the same level and corp in a different system. Lower security status of system means more mission rewards. So look for one in a 0.5 rated system.



As for why this sort of thing needs to be in the game: Well, it gives more depth to the gameplay and provides a greater range of choices as to how you play. Being that this isn't a single player game it only makes sense that you can find others no matter where they are and interactive with them whether they want you to or not.

Help rid New Eden of T2 BPOs: ** https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62797 **The Full Pocket Aggro blog:  http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/ **Now showing: **Margin Trading Scams

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#9 - 2012-01-04 21:59:44 UTC
It's cause of how what is defined as "yours".

The loot inside the wreck IS yours.
The twisted bits of metal and junk on the outside are not, and it remains of public access until it has been put into some other cargo hold.

From what I can gather CCP cannot "fix" this (it's intended) because the wreck itself has no container, it has ownership rights to whatever is inside it, but not to the wreck itself.

Salvage does not have an owner until it has been removed form the wreck.

The Drake is a Lie

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
Wild Geese.
#10 - 2012-01-04 22:04:06 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
It's cause of how what is defined as "yours".

The loot inside the wreck IS yours.
The twisted bits of metal and junk on the outside are not, and it remains of public access until it has been put into some other cargo hold.

From what I can gather CCP cannot "fix" this (it's intended) because the wreck itself has no container, it has ownership rights to whatever is inside it, but not to the wreck itself.

Salvage does not have an owner until it has been removed form the wreck.


Actually CCP could easily fix this by making salvagers be "offensive" modules, but they don't as it's intended.

Killing someone and lets you somehow suddenly own their scraps? That is not how ownership transfer works. Even the loot in the container doesn't belong to you -- if you check the wreck of a player ship at least, it belongs to the victim. The aggressor just gets access because otherwise looting anyone you kill would be obnoxious.

But no, wrecks and their salvage are like asteroids: public property until claimed.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
Wild Geese.
#11 - 2012-01-04 22:05:56 UTC
Oh, and as at least a former ninja, I should mention:

SnowxCrash wrote:
Would CCP even patch it so that people who salvage other people wrecks would be 'stealing'?


If CCP does this, I will love them forever.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-01-04 23:03:23 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Salvaging your wrecks isn't stealing! If they loot your wrecks it is and you're allowed to shoot at them... so there is consequences.

Sorry, but I thought it was my mission I was in, and I was the one who destroyed the ship that the wreck came from. Seems reasonable that the salvage rights are mine, as noone else have any reasonable claim to them. It's a theme in just about every story in SF that whoever claims rights to a ship to salvage is well within their rights in that claim in defending it with whatever means necessary. So from the standpoint of genre and reason I have full rights to the salvage and any interloper trying to take that away I should have full rights in preventing.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-01-04 23:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Oh, and as at least a former ninja, I should mention:

SnowxCrash wrote:
Would CCP even patch it so that people who salvage other people wrecks would be 'stealing'?


If CCP does this, I will love them forever.


I'd start ninja salvaging too if CCP did this and I would buy 30 PLEX from them to show them how much they've pleased me. Pirate

I'm on your side here, OP Bear

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

J Kunjeh
#14 - 2012-01-04 23:09:53 UTC
I guess this thread is bound to pop up every few weeks or so...

OP, do a search on the forums and you'll find a lot of good advice about how to deal with them.

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
Wild Geese.
#15 - 2012-01-04 23:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
So from the standpoint of genre


Hey bro, you may not have noticed, but EVE is not in any way similar to other games in the "genre".

Regardless, this same whine has been made a thousand times in the past. Ninjasalvaging started to become a thing in early 2008 and ninjasalvaging whines have popped up constantly since then. Not only has CCP never given an inch, they've actually come out in support of ninjasalvaging as a profession.

Link to some (but not) of CCP's statements on the subject:
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-01-04 23:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: SnowxCrash
Petrus Blackshell wrote:


Real life is really friggin hard; If you leave your backpack open in the middle of the street, with your iPad showing, some **** is going to come by and take it.
Thank you for trying to argue against my reasoning by comparing a SF themed video game to RL. As long as we're on this fail boat of comparison I'll remind you that if someone did steal something of mine there are consequences when you're caught. If I was there, as I often am in my missions, and some dbag tried to steal my computing device you know what I'd do? Push'em to the ground, restrain him, and ask someone to call the police. There'd be consequences to the action of stealing.
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Eve theft occurs only when you let it.

Canflippers take your mined ore that you put in a jetcan -- to make you fire back in your effectively defenseless mining ship, so they can fire back. They don't do it for your ore. Get a secure canister and they won't be able to take anything.
I don't mine, but thanks for the advice.
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Ninja salvagers take your mission loot/salvage -- big deal, simply blitzing Lv4 missions will pay you out far more than going around and collecting the loot will. Ninjas don't do it for the profit, they do it to get you to shoot them, so they can shoot back. Or to troll you and make you sad. Trust me, I've done it.

Ignoring them gives them a few million ISK of loot, while you continue doing your crazy profitable mission in peace. If you really want that loot/salvage, get one of those people you've met so far to come along in a Noctis and collect everything.

If you want to "deal directly" with looters/salvagers, get in a corp. People stealing from you allows your whole corp to fire on that person, so you can set up fun traps for them. You don't have to "bend over and take it", you just should think before punching back, and calculate your punch to hurt more than theirs.


I'm interested in playing this game. If I just wanted the shortest path to ISK and glory I'd take up some of the offers my friends in other games have given to join them for a free ride. I don't find free rides fun, I like to game, and part of games is playing them, and part of the draw of just about every mmo to date is to loot stuff, horde it, and profit. Perhaps you've been playing so many years where you just can't have fun doing that anymore, so I won't hold this ill-gotten idea against you, but I will remind you that it is fun to do as a new player. Also, I don't understand why you bothered to put your last paragraph there as what I've wanted all along is for that to be an option. If they salvage my wrecks, wrecks that exist solely due to my actions, for which I have full claim to, I want it to count the same as does with someone steals loot. Is that so much to ask?

Also, you didn't answer the only real question worth answering. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be removed from Eve?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
Wild Geese.
#17 - 2012-01-04 23:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Also, you didn't answer the only real question worth answering. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be removed from Eve?


You haven't explained why it should leave, other than your gross misunderstanding of what EVE is.

The "Standards of the genre" mean jack **** in EVE because EVE is not like other games of the genre. Nothing in EVE's design philosophy is really similar to, say, WoW. In WoW I can't declare war on your guild and gank you repeatedly to take your loot, nor can I scam you via contacts (and expect the GMs not to say anything about it).

Now, from a lore perspective, it doesn't make sense either. The loot and salvage 'belong' to the owners of the ship that you just blew up. Given that they are now dead and that CONCORD really doesn't give a **** about the well-being of pirates, they are now ownerless. Any ownership you have over anything, then, is completely arbitrary. CONCORD has determined that modules and ammo in the wreck belong to you but the floating wreck itself does not.

From a gameplay perspective, EVE's design emphasizes group play and having to interact with other players (which doesn't always mean cooperating with them; it also means fighting or competing with them). Intelligent missionrunners can employ a number of tricks to subvert the ninjasalvager, and it creates a very interesting dynamic. In addition, ninjasalvaging is a fun, skillful profession that newbies can get into. I personally know many people who only got into the game because of it.

So, from the lore perspective, ninjasalvaging makes sense. From a gameplay perspective, ninjasalvaging is awesome.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#18 - 2012-01-04 23:41:59 UTC
SnowxCrash wrote:

Also, you didn't answer the only real question worth answering. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be removed from Eve?


Yes.

EVE is a Sandbox and EVE is a PvP game, you shouldn't be able to farm ISK immune to negative interaction with other players. If that's what you want go play one of the many Themepark MMO games.

Salvaging is a CCP endorsed character occupation in EVE, it is NOT considered stealing.

Salvaging isn't the path to great wealth anyway, although salvaging wrecks in missions done by others is one the better ISK makers for new players.


SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-01-04 23:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: SnowxCrash
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Also, you didn't answer the only real question worth answering. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be removed from Eve?


You haven't explained why it should leave, other than your gross misunderstanding of what EVE is.

The "Standards of the genre" mean jack **** in EVE because EVE is not like other games of the genre. Nothing in EVE's design philosophy is really similar to, say, WoW. In WoW I can't declare war on your guild and gank you repeatedly to take your loot, nor can I scam you via contacts (and expect the GMs not to say anything about it).

Now, from a lore perspective, it doesn't make sense either. The loot and salvage 'belong' to the owners of the ship that you just blew up. Given that they are now dead and that CONCORD really doesn't give a **** about the well-being of pirates, they are now ownerless. Any ownership you have over anything, then, is completely arbitrary. CONCORD has determined that modules and ammo in the wreck belong to you but the floating wreck itself does not.

From a gameplay perspective, EVE's design emphasizes group play and having to interact with other players (which doesn't always mean cooperating with them; it also means fighting or competing with them). Intelligent missionrunners can employ a number of tricks to subvert the ninjasalvager, and it creates a very interesting dynamic. In addition, ninjasalvaging is a fun, skillful profession that newbies can get into. I personally know many people who only got into the game because of it.

So, from the lore perspective, ninjasalvaging makes sense. From a gameplay perspective, ninjasalvaging is awesome.


I've explained the reasoning. It's really as simple as cause and effect. The wrecks exist because of my actions. Can anyone have any claim to something that exists solely due to myself? I rolled the mission, went to it, destroyed the ships, made the wrecks through that action. Why should anyone else profit from my efforts, other than myself, without having to 'steal' from me and suffer the consequences of doing so. It's also worth pointing out that it's hard to justify EVE as encouraging teamplay in this regard considering how easy it is to solo l3/4s. Even more from the standpoint of maximizing profit. The fastest way to do this would be to get a partner, as I often do, both of you do dps, one goes to get a Noctis to salvage a bit b4 the mission is about to be over. That's teamplay, working together to increase earnings and have fun. But when some parasite has been salvaging the pockets behind you that teamplay goes out the window, and in effect you have to have one person solo a mish and the other wait to salvage, which is rather ridiculous, tedious, and defeats the purpose of finding someone to enjoy doing missions with. Having company is often about going to fights you can't do alone, working together to win those, and profiting from it. Which becomes troublesome when more than half the wealth get's jacked by someone who lacks common courtesy and is too lazy to run their own missions.

Also, when I was speaking of genre i wasn't speaking of games, I was speaking of pop/soft/hard SF stories, which are found primarily in books, books of which Eve and just about every other game/movie in existence has based themselves off of.
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-01-05 00:04:48 UTC
Xorv wrote:
SnowxCrash wrote:

Also, you didn't answer the only real question worth answering. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be removed from Eve?


Yes.

EVE is a Sandbox and EVE is a PvP game, you shouldn't be able to farm ISK immune to negative interaction with other players. If that's what you want go play one of the many Themepark MMO games.

Salvaging is a CCP endorsed character occupation in EVE, it is NOT considered stealing.

Salvaging isn't the path to great wealth anyway, although salvaging wrecks in missions done by others is one the better ISK makers for new players.




Huh, shouldn't be able to farm ISK without negative interaction with players...Tell me now, other than the animosity that many players no doubt feel to those who salvage their missions, what negative interaction do these salvage ninja's have to deal with? Or right, none. They just warp in, unwanted, uninvited, and take what they want with no consequences to their actions. Though there is the part of people not liking them...oh wait, no doubt this is an alt of theirs...hmmmm. I'm not seeing the negative part of being a salvage ninja....care to enlighten me?
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