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Can we please remove or nerf drone aggro.

Author
Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
#1 - 2017-07-20 13:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Li Soikutsu
Hello.

Can we please remove drone aggro or at least Nerf it.

Drone aggro is a annoying and tedious features plus it makes some builds pretty bad.

Just running normal anomalies it's not to bad you have to recall a drone rarely, however in DED sites its insane the amount aggro drones are getting making the drone ship (for example drone Proteus) pretty bad in some DED sites.

Also in my opinion it doesn't at extra depth to the game play it simply wants me to not use drone.

Ofcourse you could say 'go fly something without drones' i suppose i could or they could make it so all fits including drone ships are viable and we can all use what we consider to be more fun fits.

Thanks.
Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2017-07-20 13:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Drones were never supposed to take zero aggro in PvE sites. The reason for this is that if drones take zero aggro it becomes incredibly easy to setup an essentially AFK setup (cough VNI cough) and the inherent advantages drones have over guns (application, range, fitting) pretty quickly snowball.

CCP indicated that they're looking at a rework of drone/rat interactions in the Carrier thread, but since that seems to be towards curbing AFK gameplay I somehow very much doubt that they're going to go in this direction.

Having to micro and pay attention to your drones is supposed to be the trade-off for all those advantages, and that is interesting gameplay when it works. The current problem is that most of the time there's not much to do besides watch the drone die and send out more after aggro stabilizes, which is less than ideal on the whole.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3 - 2017-07-20 13:29:46 UTC
Err no you cannot afk rat. Yes it does add to gameplay.

Drones come with pros and cons like everything else. You can switch to a different weapon system or you can fly closer to your target.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
#4 - 2017-07-20 13:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Li Soikutsu
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Drones were never supposed to take zero aggro in PvE sites. The reason for this is that if drones take zero aggro it becomes incredibly easy to setup an essentially AFK setup (cough VNI cough) and the inherent advantages drones have over guns (application, range, fitting) pretty quickly snowball.

CCP indicated that they're looking at a rework of drone/rat interactions in the Carrier thread, but since that seems to be towards curbing AFK gameplay I somehow very much doubt that they're going to go in this direction.

Having to micro and pay attention to your drones is supposed to be the trade-off for all those advantages, and that is interesting gameplay when it works. The current problem is that most of the time there's not much to do besides watch the drone die and send out more after aggro stabilizes, which is less than ideal on the whole.



If the main reason behind drone aggro is anti AFK ratting they might as well build in a simple timer that will auto recall / abandon drone if there is no game activity of any kind for X amount of time.

I would rather have them remove the entire AUTO attack feature (incoming rage ? ) then this non stop drone aggro nonsense.

and i mean especially in DED sites it's not to bad in regular anomlies

Anyways thanks for your input o/
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2017-07-20 17:05:32 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Err no you cannot afk rat. Yes it does add to gameplay.

Drones come with pros and cons like everything else. You can switch to a different weapon system or you can fly closer to your target.


If you want to kill afk ratting, just prevent drones from working afk by disabling the auto-aggro. No need to have aggro trigger that work but only half the time because :CCP: meaning you can still afk rat as long as you know how to prevent the trigger from happening.

Now the only point of contention is: "Does CCP actually want to stop afk ratting?".
grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2017-07-20 17:17:18 UTC
Better idea:

Automatic drone functions. Start simply, with drones that automatically return to bay once they're fired upon. They don't re-launch, they just return.

Maybe build from there, maybe not.


How does that sound? Still nukes AFK setups, while reducing micro-management. Drones can still be webbed and killed by NPCs, or killed by PCs.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#7 - 2017-07-20 17:22:11 UTC
I don't have an issue with Drone Aggro at the moment. But I do wish there were some indicator that would let me know if one of my drones were being targeted instead of waiting to see that damage is being applied.

Maybe something like the yellow box/red box we have with rats/players targeting/aggressing us but rather put the yellow/red box around the drone in the drone window that shows that my drone is being targeted by someone other than me or is being aggressed.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2017-07-20 17:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
grgjegb gergerg wrote:
Better idea:

Automatic drone functions. Start simply, with drones that automatically return to bay once they're fired upon. They don't re-launch, they just return.

Maybe build from there, maybe not.


How does that sound? Still nukes AFK setups, while reducing micro-management. Drones can still be webbed and killed by NPCs, or killed by PCs.


It sound like extra coding that might be bypassed by player if they find a way to prevent rats from swapping aggro. Disabling auto-aggro pretty much only require to comment out the lines about aggressive mode.

You also make drone boat night impossible to effectively use in PvP since I could always force your drone to be auto-recalled with a single un-groupped gun. Unless you want to spam that F key to keep telling them to attack every time my gun cycle.
Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
#9 - 2017-07-20 19:21:20 UTC
First of all thank for all the reply's on suggestions.

I get that some ppl are against removing drone aggro because AFK ratting,even though afk ratting is still more risky considering you have a change to get jumped on when afking. (risk vs reward QuestionAttentionIdea)

However i am mainly concerned about the DED sites. If you ever tried running those with a drone boat you soon realise that aggro compared to regular anomlies is completly over the top. Losing a few drones now and then isn't to bad... But all 5 drone pulling insta aggro from the entire freaking room is kinda insane.. even with die hard mico management it's impossible to keep all of them alive.

So either nerf the amount of aggro they are getting or remove it all together. I don't consider it a fun part of the game anyways
I rather spend my time when running DED site looking awesome explosions then staring at the drone HP window nonstop.



Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#10 - 2017-07-20 21:40:13 UTC
I'd love to remove drone auto engaging. CCP obviously want a mixed bag of seni afk

Ded sites are not only in null sec and ded rat ai is not unique to ded sites.

Like i said, get closer to your target or change weapon system.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#11 - 2017-07-21 14:02:00 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Like i said, get closer to your target or change weapon system.

Been saying this for years. Even in DeD sites I have very little issue with drone agro and it has been six months or more since I lost a drone to NPC rats.

How do you work this magic? well it truly is extremely simple.
First you keep your drones on a very short leash, nothing more than 20k to 25k and even then only the fast moving lights should be that far out. Beyond that sentries are your best option.
Keeping them this close means you can recall them to safety BEFORE they die even if they have full room agro, well you can provided you are attentive to the damage indicators.
Keeping them this close means that for most of their time outside the safety of the drones bay they are within range of a remote shield booster or armor rep which really can make the difference between a drone that needs repair or having to replace it.
If you are not using sentry drones then the drone link augmentor should never be fit to a ship used for PvE activities you simply do not need that much control range and fitting one or more restricts your options for remote reps.
Does all of this require effort on your part as the pilot, well yes as a matter of fact it does. It raises your efforts to about the same level as a missile or turret pilot would have running the same DeD site and that alone is more than enough reason to leave drone agro as it is.

So in the end OP I see this more as a pilot problem than I do as an agro problem.
Adapt how you fly drones to meet the needs, or continue to lose them the choice is yours to make.
It is lazy and foolish to ask for a change to the game because you are incapable or unwilling to adapt to the situation you face.

Scialt wrote:
I don't have an issue with Drone Aggro at the moment. But I do wish there were some indicator that would let me know if one of my drones were being targeted instead of waiting to see that damage is being applied.

Maybe something like the yellow box/red box we have with rats/players targeting/aggressing us but rather put the yellow/red box around the drone in the drone window that shows that my drone is being targeted by someone other than me or is being aggressed.


People been asking for this since I started in 2010 so don't expect it to change anytime soon.

On the other hand this is simply not needed all you have to do is ask yourself one simple question.
Do I have drones outside my ship?
Yes - they WILL HAVE agro so take all appropriate actions to help minimize damage or loss.
No - then you do not need an indicator to tell you they are being targeted.
There you go targeting question answered quickly, simply and no changes to the game are needed and this has the added benefit that you are taking preventative measure from the moment you launch your drones.
Cade Windstalker
#12 - 2017-07-21 14:22:00 UTC
Li Soikutsu wrote:
If the main reason behind drone aggro is anti AFK ratting they might as well build in a simple timer that will auto recall / abandon drone if there is no game activity of any kind for X amount of time.

I would rather have them remove the entire AUTO attack feature (incoming rage ? ) then this non stop drone aggro nonsense.

and i mean especially in DED sites it's not to bad in regular anomlies

Anyways thanks for your input o/


It's not just about AFK ratting, it's about having to pay attention to your drones and as something to offset the benefits that drones give you. Even if you're at your computer actively flying and controlling the drones they're still an incredibly strong weapons system against NPCs.

As I pointed out previously, CCP are looking at changes to how NPCs interact with Drones. They said so in the last Carrier changes thread. I'd put the odds of them removing drone aggro entirely at within rounding error of zero though.

The main problem with drone aggro right now is the way large chunks of the site tend to swap onto Drones all at once, which makes drone aggro a very feast or famine proposition, and the interactions between NPC EWar and drones.

Personally I hope CCP make Drone Aggro more consistent across NPC types and sites but also make it more survivable if you're paying attention. Something like reducing the number of rats that will go after one drone, and reducing the chance of a rat using EWar on a Drone.

That would effectively remove the AFK-Ishtar/VNI problem and make Drone Aggro less frustrating to deal with for a player that's actually paying attention.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#13 - 2017-07-21 16:01:29 UTC
CCP made a broken agro system, the drone agro doesn't need fixed but the agro system itself. I have quit using drone ships in any pve because of as soon as I launch lights, every frigate targets its, ive even had larger ships like cruisers and up drop locks which shouldn't have to go after a light drone.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#14 - 2017-07-23 16:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Donnachadh wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Like i said, get closer to your target or change weapon system.

Been saying this for years. Even in DeD sites I have very little issue with drone agro and it has been six months or more since I lost a drone to NPC rats.

How do you work this magic? well it truly is extremely simple.
First you keep your drones on a very short leash, nothing more than 20k to 25k and even then only the fast moving lights should be that far out. Beyond that sentries are your best option.
Keeping them this close means you can recall them to safety BEFORE they die even if they have full room agro, well you can provided you are attentive to the damage indicators.
Keeping them this close means that for most of their time outside the safety of the drones bay they are within range of a remote shield booster or armor rep which really can make the difference between a drone that needs repair or having to replace it.
If you are not using sentry drones then the drone link augmentor should never be fit to a ship used for PvE activities you simply do not need that much control range and fitting one or more restricts your options for remote reps.
Does all of this require effort on your part as the pilot, well yes as a matter of fact it does. It raises your efforts to about the same level as a missile or turret pilot would have running the same DeD site and that alone is more than enough reason to leave drone agro as it is.

So in the end OP I see this more as a pilot problem than I do as an agro problem.
Adapt how you fly drones to meet the needs, or continue to lose them the choice is yours to make.
It is lazy and foolish to ask for a change to the game because you are incapable or unwilling to adapt to the situation you face.

Scialt wrote:
I don't have an issue with Drone Aggro at the moment. But I do wish there were some indicator that would let me know if one of my drones were being targeted instead of waiting to see that damage is being applied.

Maybe something like the yellow box/red box we have with rats/players targeting/aggressing us but rather put the yellow/red box around the drone in the drone window that shows that my drone is being targeted by someone other than me or is being aggressed.


People been asking for this since I started in 2010 so don't expect it to change anytime soon.

On the other hand this is simply not needed all you have to do is ask yourself one simple question.
Do I have drones outside my ship?
Yes - they WILL HAVE agro so take all appropriate actions to help minimize damage or loss.
No - then you do not need an indicator to tell you they are being targeted.
There you go targeting question answered quickly, simply and no changes to the game are needed and this has the added benefit that you are taking preventative measure from the moment you launch your drones.


So what you are saying is that to *properly* use drones you just have to not use any of the features that make them useful over guns, while still suffering all of their substantial relative drawbacks.

Honestly, I would not want the AI to be rolled back to when it didn't target drones. However, it was a poorly implemented change because there are no reliable tools to deal with agro, and actually very few unreliable tools.

What needs to happen is some reliable ewar to help the droneship protect it's drones, some drone modules to help improve tank and repair, and overall upgrades to the mobile drones to improve survivability.

It's ludicrous to say that drones should not be operating beyond 20k from the ship. They aren't sentry drones, and they should not have to operate like them. If that was how they should be used, then there should be a way to set a tether so that they won't stray from that range, and really you should not be able to get them 60k from the ship with skills alone.

It's also pretty stupid to claim that watching the drone health bars like an OCD psychotic waiting for damage to appear while also managing your ship like any other pilot and manually ensuring that no drone gets more than blaster range from the ship without any tools to manage the trick puts them on the same level of effort as using guns or missiles. There is no reason to remove drone agro (and thus enable afk combat), but that does not mean the situation is OK and not in need of correction.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#15 - 2017-07-23 21:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
No it doesn't need 'reliable' tool. What you're asking for is a switch that when fit, says 'my drones are immune to npc's'

Not going to happen. You already have ai that prioritises ewar and remote reps, so a simple target painter is likely to get them to switch target. You can already remote repair drones and only certain types of rats go for drones frequently.

Using drones has huge advantages. The price of this power? They get shot at.

If drone aggro was so bad why is everyone using them? Ishtars, VNI's, Rattlers, gilas, domi's and even the op with a drone proteus...

OP just needs to learn how to use drones.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
#16 - 2017-07-23 22:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Li Soikutsu
Daichi Yamato wrote:
No it doesn't need 'reliable' tool. What you're asking for is a switch that when fit, says 'my drones are immune to npc's'

Not going to happen. You already have ai that prioritises ewar and remote reps, so a simple target painter is likely to get them to switch target. You can already remote repair drones and only certain types of rats go for drones frequently.

Using drones has huge advantages. The price of this power? They get shot at.

If drone aggro was so bad why is everyone using them? Ishtars, VNI's, Rattlers, gilas, domi's and even the op with a drone proteus...

OP just needs to learn how to use drones.



tbh i am starting to doubt if you ever done a 10/10 with a drone boat, if you did it's beyond me why you would ever defend it.. Shocked

Just did a shansha 10/10 with a drone prot managed to keep most in one piece by following them around (which btw makes the entire thing that makes drones boats awesome obsoleet) but ones you get in the final room it becomes evem more impossible - every second 20 + NPC's will insta switch to the drones. I lost 4 praetors before calling it gg and allot of acolytes (and i bring 15+). FYI the drones where within 15 km from me. The moment they got focused i would insta recall them and some of them couldnt even make it back .. or the made it back in low armor/hull..

It's broken ... i am oke with them getting aggro but the amount atm just retarted.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#17 - 2017-07-23 22:31:22 UTC
Done 10/10's in a triple repped domi.

If you're having that much trouble, switch the weapon system. And when no one does 10/10's with drones ccp may think 'hmmm something may be up here'. But honestly, its likely more ded sites are run with drones than any other weapon system because they are that good.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#18 - 2017-07-24 06:31:16 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
No it doesn't need 'reliable' tool. What you're asking for is a switch that when fit, says 'my drones are immune to npc's'

Not going to happen. You already have ai that prioritises ewar and remote reps, so a simple target painter is likely to get them to switch target. You can already remote repair drones and only certain types of rats go for drones frequently.

Using drones has huge advantages. The price of this power? They get shot at.

If drone aggro was so bad why is everyone using them? Ishtars, VNI's, Rattlers, gilas, domi's and even the op with a drone proteus...

OP just needs to learn how to use drones.



Man, I love it when you overdose on the hyperbole.

Having a reliable tool does not mean it's a one shot solution that requires no further action or sacrifice.

I know people say the AI prioritizes Ewar and reps... but that has never been my experience in any kind of useful way. When the AI decides drones must die, it focuses on drones, period. You can pull them back in, but as soon as you put them out it switches right back, no matter what kind of ewar and repping you are doing... often focusing on the same drone they were shooting when you pulled them in. I use target painters all the time, as it's one of the few useful ewars in PvE and benefits both my ship and the drones, but at no point have I ever seen anything switch to me over it.

Ewar in general needs a solid look for use in PvE anyway, in most cases it's entirely useless. But drones were originally designed and balanced without AI aggroing them except in special circumstances, and making the change to what we have now without addressing methods of dealing with it was irresponsible and lazy development.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#19 - 2017-07-24 14:14:50 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So what you are saying is that to *properly* use drones you just have to not use any of the features that make them useful over guns, while still suffering all of their substantial relative drawbacks.

No what I am saying is that like ALL other weapon systems you need to adapt to what is happening.
Drones still give you one to the longest range options, you still have the flexibility to choose not only the proper damage type but also the proper size to deal with a specific target, in short drones have not lost any of the power, range or flexibility that make drones drones. The only thing that was lost is this crazy idea that we should be able to drop a single set of drones and then sit back, drink a cold one and watch while they chew up the entire site. Yes I know I am a terrible person, I think you should actually have to invest some time and effort into managing your drones.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
Honestly, I would not want the AI to be rolled back to when it didn't target drones. However, it was a poorly implemented change because there are no reliable tools to deal with agro, and actually very few unreliable tools.

There is one EXTREMELY reliable tool at your disposal the problem with the OP and others like you is that you do not want to use that tool. High sec, low sec, nul sec, worm holes I fly drones ships in all of them and I only lose one or two drones in any six month period, but then I expect to have to work to protect them and unlike you I am willing to hold ranges to something that is reasonable for the situations I face

That is not to say that things could not get better, again unlike you I do not want them to reduce agro related issues, in fact I am OK with them increasing agro issues as a way of better controlling the AFK nature of drones as long as those of us that do not AFK drone get better tools to help deal with it.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
It's ludicrous to say that drones should not be operating beyond 20k from the ship. They aren't sentry drones, and they should not have to operate like them. If that was how they should be used, then there should be a way to set a tether so that they won't stray from that range, and really you should not be able to get them 60k from the ship with skills alone.

No it is ludicrous to think that you can send a standard drone 30k to 50k out and expect it will not be shot into little pieces.
It is ludicrous to even think about a tether to limit drones range from a ship because no one deserves to have a game mechanic that prevents loss due to their own ignorance.
It is ludicrous to use a standard drone in a situation where you should be using sentry drones and yes once an NPC ship is out past 20k to 25k sentries are usually a much better option and by time they are 30k to 40k out you should NEVER have standard drones out since sentries can quite effectively deal with frigates at that range. Exception to this would be ships like the Gila that cannot use sentry drones.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
It's also pretty stupid to claim that watching the drone health bars like an OCD psychotic waiting for damage to appear while also managing your ship like any other pilot and manually ensuring that no drone gets more than blaster range from the ship without any tools to manage the trick puts them on the same level of effort as using guns or missiles. There is no reason to remove drone agro (and thus enable afk combat), but that does not mean the situation is OK and not in need of correction.

Funny, I find it much easier to deal with a drones ship than I do any other weapons system. No reloads to come up at a critical moment, no missile travel time, no lost time waiting while I burn into range to shoot something and best of all I still have the ability to select a weapons system that is damage type and size specific based on the target I am shooting.

Now specifically to those damage indicators, perhaps this is due to my commercial pilot training / experience (no I did not fly for an airline) or maybe my car racing experiences but in everything I do I set up a visual scan sequence to check gauges and other indicators and then run that visual scan every few seconds. In EvE I simply include the drones damage indicators to the list of things to scan so they get scanned every few seconds and to be honest it takes no real effort and very little (usually one second or so) time to scan those indicators. If you find watching you drones damage indicators to be a source of problems then I suggest you set up a UI scan procedure and then use it. In a very short period of time this scan and therefore the drone damage indicators will become habit and you will not even notice that you are doing it.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#20 - 2017-07-24 17:17:34 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


[quote=Scialt]I don't have an issue with Drone Aggro at the moment. But I do wish there were some indicator that would let me know if one of my drones were being targeted instead of waiting to see that damage is being applied.

Maybe something like the yellow box/red box we have with rats/players targeting/aggressing us but rather put the yellow/red box around the drone in the drone window that shows that my drone is being targeted by someone other than me or is being aggressed.


People been asking for this since I started in 2010 so don't expect it to change anytime soon.

On the other hand this is simply not needed all you have to do is ask yourself one simple question.
Do I have drones outside my ship?
Yes - they WILL HAVE agro so take all appropriate actions to help minimize damage or loss.
No - then you do not need an indicator to tell you they are being targeted.
There you go targeting question answered quickly, simply and no changes to the game are needed and this has the added benefit that you are taking preventative measure from the moment you launch your drones.


Actually, I don't get aggro on my drones unless I screw up (at least not on my drone ratting ships).

There are actual ways to control aggro... particularly when you realize that NPC rats absolutely HATE E-war when it comes to aggro. Sometimes though if you screw up the trigger for the next wave you do get aggro by accident. That's where a little extra warning that your drones are being targeted would be useful. Also useful for PvP of course.
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