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LF pvp fit cuiser(s) suggestions
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Papageno Imperium
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-06-29 10:46:52 UTC
Hi, in order to help my corpmates in pvp, i am wondering which vessel and what fit would be best to use. I could be asking corp but i like to make post here :]

I am a Gallente omega clone with about 5 mil SP, trained in using missiles and drones with 0 pvp xp. I got decent wallet, but would prefer in using t1/t2 cruiser for cheaper cost. Perhaps kitting ships could work, the main goal being to scare off tacklers. Caracal or Hookbill maybe. I would avoid using Vexor, been ratting nonstop on it for a month so, bit tired of it.

Any help appreciated,
Thanks in advance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87UE2GC5db0
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#2 - 2017-06-29 11:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Binchiette
There are litterally hundreds of options and which one you pick depends on your prefered style, the skils of your corpmates in PvP, and providing a doctrine which is alpha friendly and easy to use.

So before you begin there are two questions to ask:

1. Which weapon system do you want to use.
2. What kind of defences do you want to have.
3. What faction of alpha clones do you have in your corporation.

Now, when it comes to weapon systems which are easy to use the two main options are drones and missiles. These are newbro friendly because they require very little skill in manual piloting. Gunnery options such as hybrids, projectiles, and energy weapons require much better range control transversal matching and manual piloting skills. They do have the benefit of immediate damage application and this is why they are prefered in fleet engagements.

The next question to consider is consistency of tank. Essentially you want your fleet to be either armour or shield tanked. Never both. These confer different advantages so not only will mixing tank make things hard for your logi - it will also mean the ships in your fleet will behave differently. According to EvE Uni there are two common newbro fleet doctrines they fly.

1. Gallente Armour (Thorax, Exequror, and Celestis)
2. Shield and Missiles (Caracal, Osprey or Sythe, Belicose, and Blackbird)

You could possibly add a Brutix or Drake respectively to those two doctrines for command bursts. I would suggest keepiing things simple. If you are Gallente I would recommend blaster Thorax with Exequror logi. I'd downgrade the damps to the Maulus hull instead of the Celestis, and add some light tackle Atrons or Incursus into the mix. On the Thorax I would fit Medium Electron Blasters with 1600mm plate, and supported with Exequror using 3 x Medium Remote Armour Repairers and Medium Cap Boosters and local repairs if you intend using solo logi. With smaller gangs you want your logi to be capable of independant operation - and you keep their capacitor alive by eating cap boosters.


For the missile doctrine I would suggest rapid light missile caracals. As this is a natural coutner to small tackle frigates. Add some webs and target painters, an Orthrus for tackle, and you have a dangerous fleet comp. which is very easy to use.
Memphis Baas
#3 - 2017-06-29 11:58:44 UTC
You won't be able to "scare off" tacklers; by definition tacklers have the mentality of "I'll be a hero and die a glorious death, and maybe hold that ship pinned long enough for my buddies to get it killed, but even if I don't, chicks dig tacklers, so it's glorious anyway." No way you can posture to "scare off" against that kind of crazy.

If you're helping your corpmates in PVP but you're not confirming with them what you should bring, that means you're bringing a surprise (as far as they're concerned), so they won't be able to give you any of the fleet roles that require some reliability, like tackling or scouting or ewar or logistics. Thus, you're "supplemental" DPS, congrats, welcome to the fleet.

Thus, my advice is to fit a Caracal for missile DPS. Maybe RLML (rapid light missile launchers) if you're looking at killing tacklers. You can search the internet for an exact fit, RLML Caracal is a popular fit.
Papageno Imperium
Doomheim
#4 - 2017-06-29 14:30:56 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
There are litterally hundreds of options and which one you pick depends on your prefered style, the skils of your corpmates in PvP, and providing a doctrine which is alpha friendly and easy to use.

So before you begin there are two questions to ask:

1. Which weapon system do you want to use.
2. What kind of defences do you want to have.
3. What faction of alpha clones do you have in your corporation.

Now, when it comes to weapon systems which are easy to use the two main options are drones and missiles. These are newbro friendly because they require very little skill in manual piloting. Gunnery options such as hybrids, projectiles, and energy weapons require much better range control transversal matching and manual piloting skills. They do have the benefit of immediate damage application and this is why they are prefered in fleet engagements.

The next question to consider is consistency of tank. Essentially you want your fleet to be either armour or shield tanked. Never both. These confer different advantages so not only will mixing tank make things hard for your logi - it will also mean the ships in your fleet will behave differently. According to EvE Uni there are two common newbro fleet doctrines they fly.

1. Gallente Armour (Thorax, Exequror, and Celestis)
2. Shield and Missiles (Caracal, Osprey or Sythe, Belicose, and Blackbird)

You could possibly add a Brutix or Drake respectively to those two doctrines for command bursts. I would suggest keepiing things simple. If you are Gallente I would recommend blaster Thorax with Exequror logi. I'd downgrade the damps to the Maulus hull instead of the Celestis, and add some light tackle Atrons or Incursus into the mix. On the Thorax I would fit Medium Electron Blasters with 1600mm plate, and supported with Exequror using 3 x Medium Remote Armour Repairers and Medium Cap Boosters and local repairs if you intend using solo logi. With smaller gangs you want your logi to be capable of independant operation - and you keep their capacitor alive by eating cap boosters.


For the missile doctrine I would suggest rapid light missile caracals. As this is a natural coutner to small tackle frigates. Add some webs and target painters, an Orthrus for tackle, and you have a dangerous fleet comp. which is very easy to use.


So much info haha, thanks to you and Memphis Baas, the overhaul answer seem to lean toward the caracal with RLML which is perfect since my ratting ship uses the same ammo. I should probably also ask corp for further advices but i kind know what they need, and its nowhere near what i can train to atm, so the caracal is fastest and easiest to get into for a start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87UE2GC5db0
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#5 - 2017-06-29 15:36:06 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
You won't be able to "scare off" tacklers;...


No, you wont be able to scare them off, but, you should be able to make them dead. Smile
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#6 - 2017-06-30 07:25:20 UTC
Papageno Imperium wrote:

the main goal being to scare off tacklers.



It seems to me that if you want to pvp, your main goal shouldn't be to scare off fights but to attract them.
Papageno Imperium
Doomheim
#7 - 2017-07-01 21:44:32 UTC
Trevor Dalech wrote:
Papageno Imperium wrote:

the main goal being to scare off tacklers.



It seems to me that if you want to pvp, your main goal shouldn't be to scare off fights but to attract them.


Im just ratting in the system, never realy getting out of it, so i only need to pvp when one of our own getting tackle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87UE2GC5db0
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2017-07-01 23:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Memphis Baas wrote:
You won't be able to "scare off" tacklers; by definition tacklers have the mentality of "I'll be a hero and die a glorious death, and maybe hold that ship pinned long enough for my buddies to get it killed, but even if I don't, chicks dig tacklers, so it's glorious anyway." No way you can posture to "scare off" against that kind of crazy.

+1 to Memphis for the accurately colorful description. Lol


And confirming... tacklers have a "semi-suicidal" mentality.

I say "semi-suicidal" because it is not ideal to die on long roams or play "catch up" from the other side of the map.
Plus they want to score as many kills as possible.

This means when they see that there is a good chance they may blow up, they will typically pull range and/or warp out... and then return and employ slightly different tactics.


All that said... the best ways to deal with tacklers is...

- ECM: tackling ships utterly HATE ships that employ ECM. If you can jam out a tackler (or multiple tacklers), the victim can often escape. Now whether you survive is a different story as you will probably be primaried and the tacklers will try to nuke you ASAP.

- Drones: small drones will eat frigates alive... especially if they are not moving particularly fast.

- Missiles: Light Missiles (and especially Light Missiles in Rapid Light Launchers) can potentially chew apart frigates. Be careful of Assault Frigates and Tech 3 Destroyers though. Certain setups on those ships can potentially tank the damage.
Oh... and some interceptors are fast enough to "outrun" missiles.


Basically; disrupt or kill the tacklers should be your goal. That means either having good jamming skills or good damage application.

How did you Veterans start?
Papageno Imperium
Doomheim
#9 - 2017-07-02 08:21:43 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
You won't be able to "scare off" tacklers; by definition tacklers have the mentality of "I'll be a hero and die a glorious death, and maybe hold that ship pinned long enough for my buddies to get it killed, but even if I don't, chicks dig tacklers, so it's glorious anyway." No way you can posture to "scare off" against that kind of crazy.

+1 to Memphis for the accurately colorful description. Lol


And confirming... tacklers have a "semi-suicidal" mentality.

I say "semi-suicidal" because it is not ideal to die on long roams or play "catch up" from the other side of the map.
Plus they want to score as many kills as possible.

This means when they see that there is a good chance they may blow up, they will typically pull range and/or warp out... and then return and employ slightly different tactics.


All that said... the best ways to deal with tacklers is...

- ECM: tackling ships utterly HATE ships that employ ECM. If you can jam out a tackler (or multiple tacklers), the victim can often escape. Now whether you survive is a different story as you will probably be primaried and the tacklers will try to nuke you ASAP.

- Drones: small drones will eat frigates alive... especially if they are not moving particularly fast.

- Missiles: Light Missiles (and especially Light Missiles in Rapid Light Launchers) can potentially chew apart frigates. Be careful of Assault Frigates and Tech 3 Destroyers though. Certain setups on those ships can potentially tank the damage.
Oh... and some interceptors are fast enough to "outrun" missiles.


Basically; disrupt or kill the tacklers should be your goal. That means either having good jamming skills or good damage application.


Good infos, as for ECM, im a complete ignorant mf... How would you describe using ECM on a caracal, which skills and modules/drones are in use for this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87UE2GC5db0
Redus Taw
Farmers Union Iced Coffee
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2017-07-02 12:19:55 UTC
Papageno Imperium wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
You won't be able to "scare off" tacklers; by definition tacklers have the mentality of "I'll be a hero and die a glorious death, and maybe hold that ship pinned long enough for my buddies to get it killed, but even if I don't, chicks dig tacklers, so it's glorious anyway." No way you can posture to "scare off" against that kind of crazy.

+1 to Memphis for the accurately colorful description. Lol


And confirming... tacklers have a "semi-suicidal" mentality.

I say "semi-suicidal" because it is not ideal to die on long roams or play "catch up" from the other side of the map.
Plus they want to score as many kills as possible.

This means when they see that there is a good chance they may blow up, they will typically pull range and/or warp out... and then return and employ slightly different tactics.


All that said... the best ways to deal with tacklers is...

- ECM: tackling ships utterly HATE ships that employ ECM. If you can jam out a tackler (or multiple tacklers), the victim can often escape. Now whether you survive is a different story as you will probably be primaried and the tacklers will try to nuke you ASAP.

- Drones: small drones will eat frigates alive... especially if they are not moving particularly fast.

- Missiles: Light Missiles (and especially Light Missiles in Rapid Light Launchers) can potentially chew apart frigates. Be careful of Assault Frigates and Tech 3 Destroyers though. Certain setups on those ships can potentially tank the damage.
Oh... and some interceptors are fast enough to "outrun" missiles.


Basically; disrupt or kill the tacklers should be your goal. That means either having good jamming skills or good damage application.


Good infos, as for ECM, im a complete ignorant mf... How would you describe using ECM on a caracal, which skills and modules/drones are in use for this?

You won't use ECM on a caracal. The caracal is meant to actually fight with the gankers. An ECM or a Neuting ship are meant to disrupt the attackers so people can get away. ECM (electronic counter measures) and Neut (Energy Neutralizers) ships would be like the Griffin, Kitsune, Falcon and Sentinel, Dragoon, Curse, Pilgrim respectively. To explain ECM and Neut a little more, ECM has a chance to unlock all of your targets locked targets for a certain amount of time and they cannot lock any targets within that time frame. Neut's, drain their capacitor so they cannot use mwd, weapons, tackle, active tank mods, etc. I'd love to sit here and chit chat about theory, but I don't have any real experience with any of these besides one very failed attempt of using a neut dragoon (although using that had nothing to do with theory, I just like the dragoon) so I'll leave further recommendations to experienced ECM and Neut users.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#11 - 2017-07-02 17:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Papageno Imperium wrote:
Good infos, as for ECM, im a complete ignorant mf... How would you describe using ECM on a caracal, which skills and modules/drones are in use for this?

Hoo boy... ummm...

Okay. Let's take this slow. Smile


First: I would highly recommend that you talk with a PvP player (or several) in your corp/alliance (or an ally) and try to get some mentoring.

There is so much about PvP that is it kinda hard to cram all the information you need in a single forum post.
And even if one could, you would still need hands-on training and experience (because there are HUGE differences between theory, anecdotes, and practical reality).

One thing I often tell newbies is to be a PvPer first... even if they don't exactly care for it and/or have a clear income stream
The reason for this is that PvP is pretty much a constant aspect of the game that cannot be entirely avoided.
In learning how to effectively hunt and destroy other players (see: being a hunter-killer), one also learns how to protect their assets and themselves from other players.

In your particular case, you are looking to assist other players that have been accosted by hunter-killers. This means time is of the essence.
Ergo, you will need to learn and focus on how to be faster and hit harder than your opponents.
And this kind of tactical approach is more in line with "ganking."


Second: There are several type of Electronic Warfare (Ewar) in the game;
- Tracking Disruption (reduces range / tracking speed of turrets)
- Energy Neutralizing/Vampire ("destroys" / syphons capacitor energy)
- Remote Sensor Dampening (reduces targeting range / speed)
- Warp Disruption/Scrambling (prevents a target from warping and/or using Microwarpdrives / Microjumpdrives)
- Target Painting (increases target sensor footprint, making it easier to target and apply damage to)
- Stasis Webification (reduces target max speed)
- ECM (uses a Random Number Generator mechanic to potentially break all target locks and prevent any from being made for 30 seconds)

All of these...
- utilize medium power slots
- require that you have a target lock and are in range
- need to be activated on the target ship
- have skills that can be found in the Electronics skill tab


Third: The Caracal is a straight combat ship. Fit for speed, damage, and "pinning" a target yourself (because if the target escapes, they will simply come back... you want to kill the target ASAP).

If you want a ship that works well with ECM, I suggest you look into the Griffin or Blackbird.

Now... you CAN throw an ECM module on a Caracal, but the odds that the jam will be successful are significantly lower.
Always look at the bonuses of the ships you are flying and fit accordingly.

How did you Veterans start?
Papageno Imperium
Doomheim
#12 - 2017-07-03 20:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Papageno Imperium
ShahFluffers wrote:
Papageno Imperium wrote:
Good infos, as for ECM, im a complete ignorant mf... How would you describe using ECM on a caracal, which skills and modules/drones are in use for this?

Second: There are several type of Electronic Warfare (Ewar) in the game;
- Tracking Disruption (reduces range / tracking speed of turrets)
- Energy Neutralizing/Vampire ("destroys" / syphons capacitor energy)
- Remote Sensor Dampening (reduces targeting range / speed)
- Warp Disruption/Scrambling (prevents a target from warping and/or using Microwarpdrives / Microjumpdrives)
- Target Painting (increases target sensor footprint, making it easier to target and apply damage to)
- Stasis Webification (reduces target max speed)
- ECM (uses a Random Number Generator mechanic to potentially break all target locks and prevent any from being made for 30 seconds)

All of these...
- utilize medium power slots
- require that you have a target lock and are in range
- need to be activated on the target ship
- have skills that can be found in the Electronics skill tab


Very usefull info there thank you. Im getting that because Caracal isnt ECM friendly, you didnt explained further about giving an exemple of ECM modules/drones. no problem at all. But now i know that it is for breaking a target lock :)

It got my modules figured out (RLML with shield extender + 50mn coldgas warpdrive + warp disruptor ll + ballistic control system ll x3 + damage control ll) My range on missile is only 28 km, bad for a kitter im thinking. And so i added the warp disruptor which will force me to fight at the range of about 20-24 max. I hope it will be enought to wipe frigates and destroyers. Against cruisers, ill prob die trying, especialy as we seen tengu rocking in lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87UE2GC5db0
Earnest Emu
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2017-07-03 21:47:09 UTC
google eve is easy, they have some really helpful videos with ship fits. There are many others also like abaddon21, etc
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#14 - 2017-07-04 01:20:50 UTC
Papageno Imperium wrote:
you didnt explained further about giving an exemple of ECM modules/drones. no problem at all. But now i know that it is for breaking a target lock :)

The gist of ECM is this...

- All ships have a stat called "Sensor Strength"
- ECM modules also have a stat along the same lines

Both will determine the probability that you will break a ship's target lock and prevent them from locking up anything for 30 seconds.

Generally speaking...
- the higher a ship's "Sensor Strength" the lower the probability that you will jam them.
- the higher an ECM modules strength is, the higher the probability that you will jam them.

It is Random Number Generator mechanics. So even under extremely ideal circumstances, there is always a chance the jam will fail.

How did you Veterans start?
Papageno Imperium
Doomheim
#15 - 2017-07-04 09:56:40 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Papageno Imperium wrote:
you didnt explained further about giving an exemple of ECM modules/drones. no problem at all. But now i know that it is for breaking a target lock :)

The gist of ECM is this...

- All ships have a stat called "Sensor Strength"
- ECM modules also have a stat along the same lines

Both will determine the probability that you will break a ship's target lock and prevent them from locking up anything for 30 seconds.

Generally speaking...
- the higher a ship's "Sensor Strength" the lower the probability that you will jam them.
- the higher an ECM modules strength is, the higher the probability that you will jam them.

It is Random Number Generator mechanics. So even under extremely ideal circumstances, there is always a chance the jam will fail.


The more i learn, the less i know. Im not conected to the game atm but im assuming sensor strenght of ship is written in their description. It is probably best to know them all to know when to use ECM or not.
Thanks ShahFluffers for the usefull informations. Im thinking now that i could use audio teaching while im ratting for hours, this may be a good way to learn about mechanics while making isk. Eve uni might have that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87UE2GC5db0
Fluffy Moe
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2017-07-05 00:15:11 UTC
Papageno Imperium wrote:
Hi, in order to help my corpmates in pvp, i am wondering which vessel and what fit would be best to use. I could be asking corp but i like to make post here :]

I am a Gallente omega clone with about 5 mil SP, trained in using missiles and drones with 0 pvp xp. I got decent wallet, but would prefer in using t1/t2 cruiser for cheaper cost. Perhaps kitting ships could work, the main goal being to scare off tacklers. Caracal or Hookbill maybe. I would avoid using Vexor, been ratting nonstop on it for a month so, bit tired of it.

Any help appreciated,
Thanks in advance.


Celestis. Hands down. Gallente, super cheap and you can easily nullify 2 tackle ships with it, or 1 tackle and 1 whatever if you fit it right.

Your trainign for Celestis you want to be in the following order:
1. Capacitor - all cap skills as high as you can ASAP - this will help not just this, but all your ships.
2. Powergrid and CPU - don't need them 5s, but at least 4s.
3. Gallente cruisers to at least 4 (5 is better of course)
4. Train up for T2 dampeners and their respective skills, you want reduction on their cap drain etc.

Once you fit your Celestis with dampeners, check each individual dampener effectiveness, once your skills are up enough to hit around 60% per dampener, with 2 dampeners you'll be able to reduce a ships target range to zero. I like to run 3-4 dampeners on it.
Papageno Imperium
Doomheim
#17 - 2017-07-05 17:00:21 UTC
Fluffy Moe wrote:
Papageno Imperium wrote:
Hi, in order to help my corpmates in pvp, i am wondering which vessel and what fit would be best to use. I could be asking corp but i like to make post here :]

I am a Gallente omega clone with about 5 mil SP, trained in using missiles and drones with 0 pvp xp. I got decent wallet, but would prefer in using t1/t2 cruiser for cheaper cost. Perhaps kitting ships could work, the main goal being to scare off tacklers. Caracal or Hookbill maybe. I would avoid using Vexor, been ratting nonstop on it for a month so, bit tired of it.

Any help appreciated,
Thanks in advance.


Celestis. Hands down. Gallente, super cheap and you can easily nullify 2 tackle ships with it, or 1 tackle and 1 whatever if you fit it right.

Your trainign for Celestis you want to be in the following order:
1. Capacitor - all cap skills as high as you can ASAP - this will help not just this, but all your ships.
2. Powergrid and CPU - don't need them 5s, but at least 4s.
3. Gallente cruisers to at least 4 (5 is better of course)
4. Train up for T2 dampeners and their respective skills, you want reduction on their cap drain etc.

Once you fit your Celestis with dampeners, check each individual dampener effectiveness, once your skills are up enough to hit around 60% per dampener, with 2 dampeners you'll be able to reduce a ships target range to zero. I like to run 3-4 dampeners on it.


Ok, once i blow up my three caracals, i will take a look a this. I have found a nice video about celestis tho, taking a loki, was pretty neat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87UE2GC5db0