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Bltizing: Machariel vs Vargur

Author
Mark Remillard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2017-06-05 21:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Remillard
I have a question for the more experienced mission runners here. I have been reading on these forums that Machariel's Blitz missions faster than a comparably skilled/equipped Maruader. However I am having a hard time understanding where that determination is coming from.

I attempted to do my own assessment by making similar loadout's for both using 300-400 million ISK for fitting (to avoid gankers), I left out the Drones and Salvaging modules to simplify the post (I also tend to swap out prop mods as needed). I am not seeing the MAchariel as a clear winner here, In fact the Vargur seems to do better once tracking is factored in.

Stat Comparison (Pyfa was used):

Machariel : 1017 DPS, 6.5 Tracking Speed, 57.5 Falloff Range, 341.6 Active Tank,
Vargur (No Bastion): 930 DPS, 10.4 Tracking Speed, 52.75 Falloff Range, 385 Active Tank
Vargur (Bastion): 930 DPS, 10.4 Tracking Speed, 72.5 Falloff Range, 1100 Active Tank

The Machariel gains about 10% more damage but the (Bastion) Vargur had 60% better accuracy and slightly better range.......

[Machariel, PVE Machariel Auto]

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Gist X-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
[Empty High slot]

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II




[Vargur, Vargur PVE Auto]

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Gist X-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Bastion Module I
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II




Am I building the Machariel wrong or something?

Edit: I posted the Machariel twice....
Flharfh Lhar
Sasquatch Control Bureau
#2 - 2017-06-05 22:23:49 UTC
I assume you meant to post the vargur fit instead of the mach fit twice.

I've never used one to do missions, but isn't the big attraction of using the mach to do missions that it is the fastest battleship both in warp and sub-warp speeds? With an AB you can zoom around at like 600 m/s, which is as fast or faster than most AB cruisers.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#3 - 2017-06-05 22:27:40 UTC
Marauder excels at sitting in one spot while culturally enriching targets with bullets, utilizing the range bonus while in siege. It's a drawback if the site has many gates.

Mach, on top of more dps and on-site mobility, warps like a cruiser, which can save a lot of time.
Mark Remillard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2017-06-05 23:03:58 UTC
Flharfh Lhar wrote:
I assume you meant to post the vargur fit instead of the mach fit twice.


Wow. Epic fail there on my part. I have fixed the post
Mark Remillard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2017-06-05 23:06:05 UTC
So, If I understand you guys right. The speed doesn't necessarily come from damage but more from improvements to travel time?
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#6 - 2017-06-05 23:54:06 UTC
Mark Remillard wrote:
So, If I understand you guys right. The speed doesn't necessarily come from damage but more from improvements to travel time?


Yeah, because if you have to kill a lot of stuff, then you're not blitzhing through missions.
Doris Laur
TheAuthority
Pigships
#7 - 2017-06-06 00:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Doris Laur
Mark Remillard - The Mental Man Project

The Exiles/Milieu books?

The Galactic Milieu Series of science fiction novels by Julian May is the sequel (and prequel) to her Saga of Pliocene Exile.


. . . or somewhere in the Durat Galaxy ?

. . the Magnificat, also written my Julian May.

Those sound really interesting.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#8 - 2017-06-06 03:46:38 UTC
mach has warp speed, that's probably 90% of it. a bit more dps doesn't hurt either. Oh yea and the ability to fly 1500m/s with a MWD

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Kaiden krios
Mangueireiros
#9 - 2017-06-06 03:49:06 UTC
I use this combination, Vargur + Machariel, for 2 years and is very effective. If the mission is 2 ou more jumps, Mach will be better because of the travel time, and for blitz you only need to kill the required rats to end the mission.

I will give the following example, usually Dread Pirate Scarlet is 3-5 jumps aways, and i use Mach to blitz. But sometimes it's in my own system, and i use Vargur to clean everything and colect some loot.

If you use some Ascendancy Implants (Mid-Grade), the warp speed of Mach is very good, it can do 4,9AU/s. This is my current fit:

[Machariel, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
[empty rig slot]

Garde II x4
Mark Remillard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2017-06-06 13:06:08 UTC
Doris Laur wrote:
Mark Remillard - The Mental Man Project

The Exiles/Milieu books?

The Galactic Milieu Series of science fiction novels by Julian May is the sequel (and prequel) to her Saga of Pliocene Exile.


. . . or somewhere in the Durat Galaxy ?

. . the Magnificat, also written my Julian May.

Those sound really interesting.


Winner :)
Iskies Sent!
Doris Laur
TheAuthority
Pigships
#11 - 2017-06-06 13:24:30 UTC
Mark Remillard wrote:
Doris Laur wrote:
Mark Remillard - The Mental Man Project

The Exiles/Milieu books?

The Galactic Milieu Series of science fiction novels by Julian May is the sequel (and prequel) to her Saga of Pliocene Exile.


. . . or somewhere in the Durat Galaxy ?

. . the Magnificat, also written my Julian May.

Those sound really interesting.


Winner :)
Iskies Sent!


Thank you very much.Big smile
Zarek Kree
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#12 - 2017-06-06 20:09:38 UTC
It's possible that you're using a different definition of "blitzing" than the majority of Mach blitzers. Some (mistakenly in my opinion) use "blitzing" to mean speed running full clears. However, it's intended meaning by those who have made an art form of it is to complete the mission as quickly as possible while entirely ignoring all rats except those that are mission objectives. You spend most of your time flying to and from the missions and then charging from one gate to the next. Only a small fraction of your time is spent actually shooting. It simply doesn't require that much firepower. You rarely spend more than 3-4 minutes inside the mission pocket (and most of the time far less than that).

What's more, you can only legitimately blitz about 12 L4 missions in the game - and only 8 of those require a battleship (the rest are run with a fast frigate). If you're running any other missions or shooting anything other than objective ships, you're not blitzing - you're simply speed running a mission.

Using that definition, a Mach is far and away the fastest blitzing ship in the game. A Tengu comes close depending on skills - but certainly not a maurader.

When done correctly, you make far more isk/hr blitzing than you'd ever make running full clears. But 95% of the money comes from the LP - not the bounties or salvage.
Jazmyn Stone
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2017-06-06 20:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jazmyn Stone
Anyone remember Stoic's Mach? I guess not.

He wanted to see how much isk could be made by blitzing L3s. He even kept a spread sheet on it. All that information can be found in posts, from about 2 years ago. I believe he was making about 100m/hr. The Mach was touted at "King of Level 3s".

Usually blitzing in EVE Survival notes, tell you the minimum of what you have to do to complete the mission. This is what Stoic was doing, however, he put a stop watch to it. He timed from the time he left his base, ran the mission, and then complete it with his agent. This is what was put as "BLITZING". He was doing it as fast as he could. He even installed warp speed rigs on his Mach to cut down the time to and from the missions. It was a tremendous effort on his part to keep track of everything and put it down in a spread sheet.

Stoic also had 3 Tracking computers, and a sensor booster on his Mach.

After failing to beat Stoic's Mach in a Ferox, though I had come close to some of his times, I realized I needed to get to and from the missions quicker. So I fitted a Tengu with warp speed rigs, 3 tracking computers and a sensor booster too. I had 250mm T2 rials with Caldari Antimatter. My tank was only a Pith c-type MSB.

There are about 22-23 missions that can be BLITZED this way.

My Tengu beat Stoic's Mach times, 21 out of 23 missions, (or 20 out of 22). The Mach was no longer the King of Level 3s.

So there is a big difference between blitzing a mission, and BLITZING a mission with your hair on fire. BLITZING is done with stop watch.

It was agreed with Stoic, that the pace of BLITZING is rigorous, and cannot be kept up for any length of time. One slip of the finger, one delay in targeting, can mean seconds, and a losing time.

So, there it is. I disagree completely that a Mach is the fastest blitzing ship in the game. In Level 3s - NO! In Level 4 - maybe>

-Jaz

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Zarek Kree
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#14 - 2017-06-06 21:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarek Kree
I'm not sure I see the benefit of blitzing L3s vs L4s. Although there are fewer blitzable L4 missions, you can still maintain your standings even without running burners. However, as an L4 blitzer/burner pilot, I'll admit that I've never run a head-to-head comparison of isk/hr without including burners.

With burners included, you can easily exceed 200m isk/hr, but that obviously involves a steep learning curve and a couple of billion isk in burner mission ships.

There's no doubt that a Tengu and Mach are close when it comes to blitzing L4s. I've seen spreadsheet results that go both ways. Ultimately, I think it comes down to relative skills and experience with the ship. My Tengu skills are actually a little better than my Mach skills now, but I'm still better blitzing in the Mach simply because I've been using it longer and have my mission checklist down to a science.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#15 - 2017-06-06 22:50:04 UTC
I feel like blitzing 3s can be done somewhat casually, although can involve a lot of clicking due to many of the ships being frigs/destroyers. I don't think messing up by a few seconds each mission is a huge harm though. sure running at 100% optimal is hard, but 90% isn't too bad. my testing in a warp speed Proteus was around 50-60m/hr (1400-2000isk/lp), although that was just taking every mission. throw in some declines and some better knowledge of the mission pool and I think you can push it a bit higher. but I don't think it can hit 100. Proteus has a drone bay and more dps but less range than the tengu, maybe at some point I'll go revisit it.

I've done more tracking on lv4s, and there I can pretty comfortably say you can make over 200m/hr being mostly efficient. The blitz list for missions is much better defined, and burners pay out a ton. Although with burners a ton of time is spent in travel so you don't need to pay 100% attention most of the time. Either use a second monitor, or use your browser in a window so you can see the relevant parts of the screen.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#16 - 2017-06-06 23:03:33 UTC
Zarek

I want to clarify two things, maybe three.

This blitzing that Jaz was talking about only deals with L3s, not L4s.

If anyone does any looking for those old posts, and I could probably find them, you may not find Jaz's name, because I authored the posts. Jaz ran the L3 missions.

At that time, the contest was between Jaz and Stoic. It had nothing to do with Burner missions. It was just something Stoic set out to do, and he did it very well. In his spread sheet, he not only kept track of his time, but the mission name, it's distance, the lps, the rewards, the bounties, and the cost of his ammo used in the mission. I would say that if you saw it, you would have remembered it. So, you haven't seen it.

Your blitzing is not the same as their BLITZING, so that is a mute point.

I guess there was no actual real point of what Stoic started, he said he did it for "giggle and laughs", just to see what the numbers would be. And to generate about 100m/hr, running L3s is actually pretty good.

The posts about isk generated from running Burner missions, came afterward. This little contest between Stoic and Jaz may have been before burner missions.

I will try and find those posts again, as I have had to do over the last few years, and post them again.

I don't think the Mach and Tengu are close competitors in L4s. The Mach wins hands down. L3s is completely different.

-Kirst.

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Mark Remillard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2017-06-06 23:41:12 UTC
Thank you for the feedback everyone. My questions were answered. Not quite sure why Jazmyn Stone is changing the topic into a discussion of Ideal level 3 Blitzing but it is interesting nonetheless.


Jazmyn Stone
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2017-06-06 23:49:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jazmyn Stone
I am sorry for the hi jack.

There was talk of blitzing, there was talk of Machs. Just wanted to give some history as this happened before many of you even joined EVE. I also wanted to set the record straight and make some corrections.

I thought I could add something relevant, but I guess that was missed. Sorry again. Mea Culpa

Edit: My L3 blitzing took place in May 2014. Burner Missions started August, 2014.


-Jaz

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#19 - 2017-06-06 23:52:45 UTC
ion's tengu thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=408949
stoics' mach thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345580

sure they are lv3 missions, but the tactics are mostly the same just against a few more and bigger ships in lv4s

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#20 - 2017-06-07 00:10:59 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
I'm not sure I see the benefit of blitzing L3s vs L4s. Although there are fewer blitzable L4 missions, you can still maintain your standings even without running burners. However, as an L4 blitzer/burner pilot, I'll admit that I've never run a head-to-head comparison of isk/hr without including burners.

With burners included, you can easily exceed 200m isk/hr, but that obviously involves a steep learning curve and a couple of billion isk in burner mission ships.

There's no doubt that a Tengu and Mach are close when it comes to blitzing L4s. I've seen spreadsheet results that go both ways. Ultimately, I think it comes down to relative skills and experience with the ship. My Tengu skills are actually a little better than my Mach skills now, but I'm still better blitzing in the Mach simply because I've been using it longer and have my mission checklist down to a science.

It's mostly an SP thing, many low sp players will rush into lv4s and make less than if they stayed in lv3s and learned efficient tactics.

And yea in the lv4 pool there are a bunch of decent missions. when you get around to cherry picking you can break 100m/hr running mostly the blitz missions plus a few that are worth doing full clears on. things like the blockade where you make 20mil in bounties and get 8-9k lp in ~18 mins. the Enemies abound chain that last I checked easily beat 100m/hr. even something like gone berserk without the blitz isn't too bad, something like 10mil in 10mins plus lp. but all this requires solid BS skills and it takes time to get there. I have an old spreadsheet where I hit 80m/hr and that was before I started blitzing, I even ran a courier mission (note LP was worth much more then, at 1800 isk/lp it drops to 55m/hr). I think my early blitzing spreadsheets got lost on a HD failure.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

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