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Strategic Cruiser Focus Group Working Thread

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C C P Alliance
#1 - 2017-05-30 15:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hey everyone! If you've read the previous thread asking for applications or our recent dev blog you'll know that we have spun up another community focus group to help refine plans for a Strategic Cruiser rebalance this summer. We almost have the whole group in the channel now and we're starting in earnest.

The basic outline of our goals and early plans can be found in the balance presentation from Fanfest as well as the dev blog.

We'll be using this thread as a location for general community discussion and Q&A as we go through this process.

Anyone can observe the logs of the discussion in the focus group slack through https://focusgrouplogs.tech.ccp.is/

We'll also link other working documents in this thread as we go forward so the whole community can take a look.

Thanks!

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

C C P Alliance
#2 - 2017-05-30 15:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2017-05-30 15:40:53 UTC
Reserved

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Aprilon Dynasty
#4 - 2017-05-30 16:02:07 UTC
The discussion is looking good so far, i just want to make sure the exploration voice is heard loud and clear, while cloaky nullified T3's are a pain for PvP they are important for explorers, i'm open for penalties that would affect PvP while having those subs fitted, for instance a scan res penalty like you get for fitting stabs etc

I just don't want the PvP pains to end up making these ships unviable for exploration
C C P Alliance
#5 - 2017-05-30 16:07:44 UTC
Cypherous wrote:
The discussion is looking good so far, i just want to make sure the exploration voice is heard loud and clear, while cloaky nullified T3's are a pain for PvP they are important for explorers, i'm open for penalties that would affect PvP while having those subs fitted, for instance a scan res penalty like you get for fitting stabs etc

I just don't want the PvP pains to end up making these ships unviable for exploration


Yup preserving exploration gameplay is definitely a priority for CCP as well.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Aprilon Dynasty
#6 - 2017-05-30 16:10:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
The discussion is looking good so far, i just want to make sure the exploration voice is heard loud and clear, while cloaky nullified T3's are a pain for PvP they are important for explorers, i'm open for penalties that would affect PvP while having those subs fitted, for instance a scan res penalty like you get for fitting stabs etc

I just don't want the PvP pains to end up making these ships unviable for exploration


Yup preserving exploration gameplay is definitely a priority for CCP as well.


Oh and just a clarification, the probe bonus on the cloak sub is per level for scan probe strength i'm assuming, the same as the current bonus, its hard to tell whats per level on that line compared to static bonuses, more of a formatting issue really :P
#7 - 2017-05-30 16:20:49 UTC
Great discussions and points well made from the focus group so far.

I got extremely interested by the Heat bonus mention few days ago. It comes down to a simple fact : a visible bonus is better than a invisible/passive bonus.

Give a ship to someone telling him that overheat damage is reduced by 20% when using armor hardeners, he will be like "cool !" without thinking anything else. You don't have any mention telling you how much time you can overheat until you are at 100% damage, and except doing the math yourself or launching pyfa / eft, it's not something apparent.

Give a ship to someone telling him there is a bonus to overheat bonus, and he will see his scram going from 24km to 36km (assumng the OH is 50% instead of 20%, random number). The pilot will immediately see the difference, and in this case the use of this bonus will feel more rewarding.

This is something which is already listed in your proposal changes and I like it. I am perplex about the overheat damage reduction bonus, such as now, because it feels less rewarding

Regarding the slot layout, I would make a difference between the Legion and Proteus subsystems so that the legion tends to have more low slots than the proteus. For the legion, +2 Mid / +2 Low would then be +1 Mid / 3 Low.

Regarding the Active tank subsystem on the Tengu, I believe "+10% Shield Boost, +10% Shield Boost Benefits" should be read as "+10% Shield Boost, +10% Shield Boost Overheat Benefits" ?
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#8 - 2017-05-30 16:48:49 UTC
Is there any compelling reason to keep the kinetic lock on the Tengu missile subsystem?

rough calculations, missile tengu will have 10 launchers Kin locked where the legion 6.5 but with added 7.5 medium drones and the loki 7.5 with4 medium drones and damage application bonus
Scary Wormhole People
#9 - 2017-05-30 16:54:35 UTC
"Increase cost slightly"

Is this form the new item being added to the hull manf requirements?

I was hoping the invension side could be looked at as well. If I'm understanding this correctly, this item is being used to put some cost difference into the hulls like how the racial Hybrid Tech Decryptors used to. Except it's being done on building side instead of invension. Which imo is where the changes need to be made.

Back when hybrid tech decryptors were a thing, the caldari racial variant was so expensive it proped up the intact and malf relic prices because of how inefficient using wrecked relics were. With the rest of the races bouncing between malf and wrecked.

Removing the decryptors made all four T3s cost the same to invent. Then later (or was it at the same time?) we got to choose the outcome of our invension and that basically buffed invension chance by 200% (1/4 chance of what you wanted to 1/1). This is also ignoring the success boosting decryptors we get to use now as well.

So what I'd like to see is Hybrid Tech Decryptors added back into sleeper data sites (Giving them back the only drop that was worth anything) and then reducing the invension chance by 50% (or 75% if you want to go back to how relics used to be priced).

Then maybe I won't have to tell people that run relic/data sleeper sites that the hackable cans are a waste of time.
Pandemic Legion
#10 - 2017-05-30 16:54:43 UTC
Quote:
Reduce T3C base resists to T3D level


Does that mean T3D base or T3d's in defensive mode?
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#11 - 2017-05-30 17:23:34 UTC
I would like to see the skillpoint loss die in a fire... Much as I appreciate CCPs "financial benefits" to skillpoint loss, it's a godawful mechanic that dissuades a lot of players from using an entire class of ships that has no place in today's game.

Remove the SP loss and you have more flexibility to play about with defensive options.
#12 - 2017-05-30 17:37:55 UTC
Like: missile Loki and Legion subs
Dislike: +1 high slot and only ROF all missile subs
Can you add a secondary (?!) e-war bonuses/sub like TP, TD and sensor damp?
United Neopian Federation
#13 - 2017-05-30 17:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sterling Blades
Currently liking how things are going with the wip subsystem sheet. Do have to nitpick about the base resist changes down into t3d territory, and truthfully a bit miffed with certain combinations, but overall its actually a fairly solid work and progress set.

The gods are out there. They watch us. They guide, they manipulate. We rally behind the ones we adore, and rain fire against those who rally behind the ones we hate. The question now is, to whom does your allegiance fall behind, dear Empyreans?

Digital Vendetta
#14 - 2017-05-30 17:49:20 UTC
Although I'd hate to see my superoptimized 10/10 solo runner T3cs go, those changes look great.

I am thinking that maybe the probe should not be part of the cloak and instead tied to electronics like it is right now;
Combat probing T3Cs in normal, day to day ops in Null are very useful thanks to that particular bonus, since You sacrifice ewar/ sensor strength for probing.
But it seems like there's no better place to put that so let it be.

Overall:
+++ cloaky sub. Loving it.
+++ Loki optinal and falloff bonus
++ Drones on secondary legion sub :)
+ Overall more droney cruisers
~ Don't know if the Tengu AB speed AND Heat benefits don't make it too strong, especially for 100MN fits.
- Proteus: Current drone sub gives 100mb, 5% hybrid and 10% drone damage and is very mediocre. I'd like for a hybrid damage or that final 25mb drone

Amarr Empire
#15 - 2017-05-30 18:12:35 UTC
legion offense seems weak compared to the others
i guess thats just its thing
Shadow Cartel
#16 - 2017-05-30 18:13:30 UTC
50% ehp nerf pls, and make the cap regen thing into cap amount or something so cap batteries don't go nuts like on hacs
#17 - 2017-05-30 18:22:47 UTC
naed21 wrote:
"Increase cost slightly"

Is this form the new item being added to the hull manf requirements?

I was hoping the invension side could be looked at as well. If I'm understanding this correctly, this item is being used to put some cost difference into the hulls like how the racial Hybrid Tech Decryptors used to. Except it's being done on building side instead of invension. Which imo is where the changes need to be made.

Back when hybrid tech decryptors were a thing, the caldari racial variant was so expensive it proped up the intact and malf relic prices because of how inefficient using wrecked relics were. With the rest of the races bouncing between malf and wrecked.

Removing the decryptors made all four T3s cost the same to invent. Then later (or was it at the same time?) we got to choose the outcome of our invension and that basically buffed invension chance by 200% (1/4 chance of what you wanted to 1/1). This is also ignoring the success boosting decryptors we get to use now as well.

So what I'd like to see is Hybrid Tech Decryptors added back into sleeper data sites (Giving them back the only drop that was worth anything) and then reducing the invension chance by 50% (or 75% if you want to go back to how relics used to be priced).

Then maybe I won't have to tell people that run relic/data sleeper sites that the hackable cans are a waste of time.


The same thing would be accomplished if they increase the value of the subsystems datacores(increased usage/decreased drops), from currently 5k isk (essentially zero)
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#18 - 2017-05-30 18:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Chance Ravinne
Gonna need more time to look this over, but at initial glance I am VERY excited about the covert ops possibilities with these options. My greatest reserve has been that the changes would present no compelling reason to ever fly a T3C over a Stratios for cloaky hunting (not HK-ing), and my fears are allayed.

There are going to be some REALLY COOL fits here. Have to take this to the lab for a bit but I am hugely optimistic about at least this angle of the changes.

Thank you for sharing, Fozzie!

PS: I really like the overheat/paste theme

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Caldari State
#19 - 2017-05-30 18:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Eustise
Cypherous wrote:
The discussion is looking good so far, i just want to make sure the exploration voice is heard loud and clear,


Jump bumping in to say that all exploration seems to be in a fantastic place with these changes so far. There were doubts we'll even be able to fit cloaky and nullified at the same time, or even the scan bonuses with the covops, or get somekind of lowslot messing around with, but we're pretty ok. I'll still hold my breath until i see the final numbers for armor/shield to check out how it works against Ghost Sites and Superior Sleeper Caches, since that's where EHP actually matters for us, but the big issues have passed and we'll take the EHP hits as everyone else, as well as the agility hits.

Taking a Proteus as an example, we'll have the option of a new fully bonused offensive system if we give up a current lowslot, which will allow us to properly molest Asteros and maybe, just maybe, even Strats. With the RR/burst bonus sub we get the current slot layout, however, we will get a new targetting range lock penalty with the Nullification sub. Depending on how many stabs you run, that may affect you.

Coming back to EHP, it's worth mentioning that we'll get a new 37.5% local rep bonus, compared to the +hp bonus we used to get. With the other nerfs, it'll round to about 10-15% more local rep (considering current fit), and it may prove more useful than face-tanking Superior Archives or Sleeper sites in general. I'm not sure how the tradeoff will work. However, given T3D resists, a Prot will have the same 50% explosion resistence as it always had, which means Ghost Sites will do the same amount of damage to you.

In any case, given tank changes, if you get caught with a full explo fit, expect to not reach the gate in time to jump this time around. Which imho, is fine. Also, if you used a Prot, you'll be happy to know we get 50 instead of 25mbit now, even for the RR sub, not even going into the full offensive one where we get 100mbit. So even when you're not ready, you can still defend yourself against an Astero for example.
Hiigaran Protectorate
#20 - 2017-05-30 18:49:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Cypherous wrote:
The discussion is looking good so far, i just want to make sure the exploration voice is heard loud and clear, while cloaky nullified T3's are a pain for PvP they are important for explorers, i'm open for penalties that would affect PvP while having those subs fitted, for instance a scan res penalty like you get for fitting stabs etc

I just don't want the PvP pains to end up making these ships unviable for exploration


Yup preserving exploration gameplay is definitely a priority for CCP as well.


Why did you transfered scaning bonuses to deffence slot? some exploration sites do a lot of damage, with this i can say "Farewel forever" to a sleeper sites, i do not care about offence at all at that, please move exploration bonuses to other slot, offence with cloak as it was for all i care. EXPLORERS NEED DEFENCE!!!
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