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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Player-AI PvE
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Zoltan Cole
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-05-20 11:19:06 UTC
Belts should spawn player-AI faction frigates (- cruisers?) that have the speed, tank, and damage of a standard fit. To make them more common, it obviously doesn't have to drop its BPC or whatever every time, but if they're common and have good bounties/rewards, there's every reason to go out and check belts to get that PvP feeling.. and how great is that?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2 - 2017-05-20 11:20:18 UTC
player AI faction frigates?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#3 - 2017-05-20 11:42:33 UTC
Try hunting belt rats in incursion constellations, I think you'll find the Sansha quite capable although they don't have adaptive AI.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2017-05-20 11:49:19 UTC
Every other attempt that CCP have ever made to give 'that pvp feeling' from ratting has failed. Why would this work when burners, clones, mordus, incursions, sleepers, drifters and (probably) those BR shipyards didn't?
Count Szadek
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2017-05-20 14:38:23 UTC
Don't they already do this with the NPC Mining / Response fleets?
Zoltan Cole
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#6 - 2017-05-20 14:55:24 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Every other attempt that CCP have ever made to give 'that pvp feeling' from ratting has failed. Why would this work when burners, clones, mordus, incursions, sleepers, drifters and (probably) those BR shipyards didn't?

I wouldn't guess from discussions on them that clones, mordus, incursions, sleepers, and drifters were meant to be "PvP" AI (and burner missions don't even require points, so the skillfulness of keeping speed at range while countering maneuverability isn't established).

It's helpful content if it's a good, repeatable experience in the midst of leveling mission rep (e.g., for burners) and getting into PvP (not to mention finding a WH corp or finding a C13). It should come as a good alternative to FW complexes and gatecamping.
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#7 - 2017-05-20 16:19:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokan Narkar
Count Szadek wrote:
Don't they already do this with the NPC Mining / Response fleets?

well... maybe someone is doing them but there are two major issues with this kind of content

first: attacking miners is useless and gives no benefit, afaik you must wait for the hauler who can drop skin and when he spawns you have only limited ammount of time to kill him oh and he is tanky like freighter too witth 2 or maybe 3 stabs

waiting for him can take longer than hour and then when he finally arrive its Iteron Mark which is the wrong kind of hauler who doesnt drop anything and when you find the Occator randomly somewhere you don't have time to form fleet before he finish his taks and disappear - and afaik its not solo-able the response fleet has ewars, drain and damage

ie. players can't choose when they start it and thats a big issue with PvE content

second problem is the standing loss with the owner of the fleet


even if this is actually soloable we got basically the same problem as burners - one or two specific setups to do the job nothing else
Cade Windstalker
#8 - 2017-05-20 21:03:04 UTC
Burner Missions are that way ->
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#9 - 2017-05-20 21:26:01 UTC
If you want that PvP feeling why not go PvP?
mkint
#10 - 2017-05-21 02:19:11 UTC
Any time CCP has promised "PVP-like PVE" it's always ended up either a dud or gameable. How many years since w-space was added? Have we not learned that people who are trying to PVE just want a repeatable predictable experience, simple decisions, low risk, etc, while people who want to PVP go out and PVP? So, no, CCP's decades-long promise of AI that fights like players is probably a complete waste of resources. Additionally, look at who PVPs and why. It's always an attempt to disrupt someone else's activities. With that in mind, pretending an NPC is a player is nonsense.

What you're actually looking for are more hooks to actual PVP. PVE will never replicate the experience.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Zoltan Cole
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#11 - 2017-05-23 10:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoltan Cole
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Burner Missions are that way ->

Not a rebuttal.

Zoltan Cole wrote:
It's helpful content if it's a good, repeatable experience in the midst of leveling mission rep (e.g., for burners) and getting into PvP (not to mention finding a WH corp or finding a C13). It should come as a good alternative to FW complexes and gatecamping.



Sonya Corvinus wrote:
If you want that PvP feeling why not go PvP?

It's not "why isn't this (forum) character just PvPing", but "let's get fresh characters into practice with manual piloting .. and generally being good 'tackle', not to mention getting them out of missions and out of orbiting beacons. "Just go lose 50 ships" is no alternative to "just go kill 50 rats".
Rhaegon Aesir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-05-23 14:45:47 UTC
Zoltan Cole wrote:
"let's get fresh characters into practice with manual piloting .. and generally being good 'tackle', not to mention getting them out of missions and out of orbiting beacons.


So...get people away from shooting NPCs...and make them shoot more NPCs. How exactly does this solve anything? The new AI is tougher, yes, but its still nothing at all like an actual player. I mean, the Blood Raiders couldn't even kill T1 frigates.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#13 - 2017-05-23 16:20:48 UTC
Npc's will always be predictable. They will always operate under certain parameters. Even burners have been clocked and farmed. So too will blood raiders be practiced to perfection. This is the nature of npc's. Always.

You want that 'pvp feeling' when you go into a belt? Hunt other players. Thats it. Thats the only way you're gonna get what you want.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Zoltan Cole
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-05-23 16:23:18 UTC
Rhaegon Aesir wrote:
Zoltan Cole wrote:
"let's get fresh characters into practice with manual piloting .. and generally being good 'tackle', not to mention getting them out of missions and out of orbiting beacons.


So...get people away from shooting NPCs...and make them shoot more NPCs. How exactly does this solve anything? The new AI is tougher, yes, but its still nothing at all like an actual player. I mean, the Blood Raiders couldn't even kill T1 frigates.

Well, what are you trying to solve?

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Npc's will always be predictable. They will always operate under certain parameters. Even burners have been clocked and farmed. So too will blood raiders be practiced to perfection. This is the nature of npc's. Always.

You want that 'pvp feeling' when you go into a belt? Hunt other players. Thats it. Thats the only way you're gonna get what you want.

It's not specifically about the PvP feeling except for practice.
Rhaegon Aesir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-05-23 16:33:13 UTC
Zoltan Cole wrote:
Well, what are you trying to solve?


...I'm not trying to solve anything? I'm trying to show you that there is no problem to solve, if you want to practice PVP you can go...shoot other players. NPCs will never be at the level necessary for this to work.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#16 - 2017-05-23 19:35:53 UTC
My point still stands. There isn't any ai that can give you anything near the level of a pvp experience. Sure we can do better than now but as pointed out, thats what burners are. Thats what the mining npc's are. Pretty sure all the npc's are going to be getting an update at some point.

But you're naive if you think its going to prepare you for a real pvp experience. Especially in eve where your enemies don't have to bring a 'fair' fight.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2017-05-23 19:49:07 UTC
No thankyou, elite frigates with ewarfare are already too much of a nuisance and should be tossed out.
Zoltan Cole
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#18 - 2017-06-03 20:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoltan Cole
*Deleted*
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#19 - 2017-06-04 13:44:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
If you want that PvP feeling why not go PvP?

My thoughts precisely.

Sonya Corvinus wrote:
If you want that PvP feeling why not go PvP?
It's not "why isn't this (forum) character just PvPing", but "let's get fresh characters into practice with manual piloting .. and generally being good 'tackle', not to mention getting them out of missions and out of orbiting beacons. "Just go lose 50 ships" is no alternative to "just go kill 50 rats".

PvE is good to teach these new players simple, basic concepts and that is all it will EVER be good for. Basic levels of things like ship handling, module management, d-scan awareness and fleet procedures are the only things you will ever be able to use PvE for when training a PvP pilot, because anything else is simply beyond the capabilities of a computer game AI.

The U.S. and other military forces have some of the most sophisticated PvE based training systems in existence right now and even they cannot come close to replicating the true stresses and feelings associated with combat in any form, what makes you think that a game company with less money and less developer time can create something that will?