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The degraded and forgotten ships.

Author
#1 - 2017-05-18 04:37:34 UTC
Hello. My in game name is aznomads ive been a veteran in the game sense 2006 first started as a caldari pilot. I would like to speak to someone personally about the ship that i deemed m6 flagship and named the Illucidator MK-XV11 or as you would know it better the caldari standard battleship the Rokh. This has always been my goal ship and though i know the roles it fills arent anything of great value but from the moment my friend Rupee Rue in game gave me my first caldari steam train it has always been the pinacle of my focus. Improving fits finding new combinations of different armories and hardneners and ammunition types to make her the battleship that reflects the image of its class. However from 08 to current date ive seen nerf after nerf toward my pride and joy my reason to fly the vast expanses. My vessel my castle is all but ruins and now ships that take a few weeks to train into can easily out gun what took me 3 years to get to mastery 5 solo.... ide like to know why my ship has been thrown to the side to make way for frigates..... please answer this calling. It may save my subscription. I know one subscriber and monthly player doesnt make much of a dent compared to the vast numbers collected in your creation. Your universe is ever expanding and truely amazing. But so many have been forced into the shadows. The RnK fleets of old to the TEST alliance numbering in the near 1000's have all witnessed the destruction of one of the things that gave them the humble start and built the road to get them where they are today. Though i know as i said one perspective one objector to the order of things as they are compared to thr tens of thousands that go with the flow of the game. But RnK is all but lost and TEST is no more than an afterthought. Do you recall thr golden fleet of RnK? Who truly proved that even when small in numbers compared to many times their offencive force one pilot could change the tides of war depending on his actions. This is my version of killing a butterfly. I just hope the butterfly effect makes you see things through our eyes. We the random few, the forgotten fleets, the wartorn heroes. The eve nomads. Thank you for your time.
AZNomads, balgara, Col Hoss, Baylore, MOONMAN777, AZNomadofmalice, ibfugly

All names listed are seperate people not just alts or fictional creations. And we all look forward to your answer
#2 - 2017-05-18 05:16:53 UTC
AZNomads wrote:
Hello.

My in game name is aznomads ive been a veteran in the game sense 2006 first started as a caldari pilot.

I would like to speak to someone personally about the ship that i deemed m6 flagship and named the Illucidator MK-XV11 or as you would know it better the caldari standard battleship the Rokh. This has always been my goal ship and though i know the roles it fills arent anything of great value but from the moment my friend Rupee Rue in game gave me my first caldari steam train it has always been the pinacle of my focus. Improving fits finding new combinations of different armories and hardneners and ammunition types to make her the battleship that reflects the image of its class.

However from 08 to current date ive seen nerf after nerf toward my pride and joy my reason to fly the vast expanses.

My vessel my castle is all but ruins and now ships that take a few weeks to train into can easily out gun what took me 3 years to get to mastery 5 solo.... ide like to know why my ship has been thrown to the side to make way for frigates..... please answer this calling. It may save my subscription. I know one subscriber and monthly player doesnt make much of a dent compared to the vast numbers collected in your creation.

Your universe is ever expanding and truely amazing. But so many have been forced into the shadows.

The RnK fleets of old to the TEST alliance numbering in the near 1000's have all witnessed the destruction of one of the things that gave them the humble start and built the road to get them where they are today. Though i know as i said one perspective one objector to the order of things as they are compared to thr tens of thousands that go with the flow of the game. But RnK is all but lost and TEST is no more than an afterthought.

Do you recall thr golden fleet of RnK? Who truly proved that even when small in numbers compared to many times their offencive force one pilot could change the tides of war depending on his actions.

This is my version of killing a butterfly. I just hope the butterfly effect makes you see things through our eyes. We the random few, the forgotten fleets, the wartorn heroes.

The eve nomads. Thank you for your time.
AZNomads, balgara, Col Hoss, Baylore, MOONMAN777, AZNomadofmalice, ibfugly

All names listed are seperate people not just alts or fictional creations. And we all look forward to your answer

I formatted it. Not for you, but for everyone else.

TLDR: Buff Rokhs.
#3 - 2017-05-18 12:26:05 UTC
Ever after the kind formatting in still going to have to say

Wut


M8 tell us your idea clearly cut out all the back sorry b.s. that has nothing to do with it
The-Culture
#4 - 2017-05-18 13:28:58 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Not for you, but for everyone else.

You're a legend , cheers.
#5 - 2017-05-18 13:35:49 UTC
Indeed. You need some sort of idea rather than just 'buff rokhs or I'll quit waah'

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

#6 - 2017-05-18 14:19:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
So, first off, the Rokh isn't a bad ship. If there's any problem with it it's simply that Large Rails aren't really good in the Meta right now. Beam Lasers have better tracking and Arty have alpha. Rails, as something in the middle, aren't really big in large Null fights right now. In smaller gangs there are simply better ships.

As for this...

Quote:
Do you recall thr golden fleet of RnK? Who truly proved that even when small in numbers compared to many times their offencive force one pilot could change the tides of war depending on his actions.


This is an unrealistic fantasy, to put it simply.

The only way a small gang beats a large group is if the large group ****s up spectacularly or is massively less skilled than the small group. Any expectation of David vs Goliath playing out on a regular basis is an unrealistic fantasy. There is, after all, a reason that events like this are legends in real life, and even fairly noteworthy when they occur in Eve.

And yeah, your post isn't an idea, it's a story. There might be a concrete idea in there somewhere but if there's one besides "buff Rokhs to OP heights" I'm really not seeing it.

Oh and massive thanks for that formatting Rawketsled, that was unreadable as posted.
Caldari State
#7 - 2017-05-18 15:15:09 UTC
https://youtu.be/bv7vPtXdWnk

OP likes Rokhs. So does this person.

Rawketsled, totally gave you a like... I was going to TLDR the OP and try to put it together from the answers, because that would have been easier. Turns out I was right, the replies were way easier to understand than the OP.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2017-05-18 15:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Rawketsled wrote:
I formatted it. Not for you, but for everyone else.

TLDR: Buff Rokhs.



Can you translate it to standard English?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Limited Expectations
#9 - 2017-05-18 15:39:19 UTC
I somewhat understood the post and I think it belongs to the roleplay section of the forum. Or "out of pod" experience as there seems to be some sort of irl drug involvement.
Solitaire.
#10 - 2017-05-18 16:23:04 UTC
All t1 battleships need buffs.
No reason a battleship should be outgunned by smaller ship's.
I really like the idea of being able to load small and medium ammo into Bs guns for better tracking.
A battleship should be able to SWAT down little frigates like a flyswatter.
Limited Expectations
#11 - 2017-05-18 17:46:04 UTC
Small ammo in large turrets- 1/10. There is something as under caliber ammo but it has the same rate of fire and "tracking" issues.
t1 bs are in healthy place and have very good variety (shield/ armor + solo/fleet variants and other mix) and Rokh is a fantastic shield brick for fleet fights, only reason it's not used is because faction bpo's are being farmed to death and too cheap (mineral cost is similar).
#12 - 2017-05-18 23:05:12 UTC
Blade Darth wrote:
Small ammo in large turrets- 1/10. There is something as under caliber ammo but it has the same rate of fire and "tracking" issues.
t1 bs are in healthy place and have very good variety (shield/ armor + solo/fleet variants and other mix) and Rokh is a fantastic shield brick for fleet fights, only reason it's not used is because faction bpo's are being farmed to death and too cheap (mineral cost is similar).

When CCP themselves have said that BS are not in a healthy place in the overall Meta, you trying to claim they are shows a serious lack of understanding.
However it may be that a direct buff is not the way ideal forward.

Given I can't think of a fit that actually uses oversize guns, and only a few that use under-size gins, my preference would be to make gun slots size locked, and do something like give BS their current number of large guns, 4 medium guns & 2 small guns. Then make tracking small ships even harder for medium & large guns (Before this accuracy BS I'd have done it by just giving them a target sig radius/gun sig radius chance of hitting even a stationary target, but I'm sure you could do it)
Designating slots as potential utility could also be done to prevent this being 6 extra utility slots, make the only possible use M & S guns or empty. PG probably doesn't need to change at all since it would give additional reasons to use the smaller L gun sizes & RCU's. CPU obviously would need to change.

This gives a BS similar fire-power vs a frigate that another frigate has, similar vs a cruiser that another cruiser has, but still heavy fire-power vs BS ^ larger.
It's certainly a more complex & difficult approach, but CCP have shown us that we are no longer tied to the H/M/L slots only with Citadels, and there is room on the UI for that also. (UI I imagine being like a slive of pie, with the M & S slots inside the wheel of the current H slots, but locked to guns only)
And it seems a much more intuitive way forward than just trying to buff BS in a direct fashion.
#13 - 2017-05-18 23:12:10 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
All t1 battleships need buffs.
No reason a battleship should be outgunned by smaller ship's.
I really like the idea of being able to load small and medium ammo into Bs guns for better tracking.
A battleship should be able to SWAT down little frigates like a flyswatter.



you know you can just put undersized guns onto the BB right? and since they have more slots and more PG/CPU generally do get more DPS than ships bonused to those guns?

BBs are not meant to just be simply better than smaller ships they are a different tool for a different job
Limited Expectations
#14 - 2017-05-19 00:57:13 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
When CCP themselves have said that BS are not in a healthy place in the overall Meta, you trying to claim they are shows a serious lack of understanding.
CCP balance changes tend to have the accuracy of a blind person shooting from a roller-coaster.

They are not in a good place in the meta but the ships themselves, their bonuses, cost etc are mostly ok. After t3 cruiser rebalance (aka possible nerf) and upgraded npc AI (pve rework- harder DED sites- pirate bpc worth more than toilet paper), t1 will become more common.
#15 - 2017-05-19 01:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


you know you can just put undersized guns onto the BB right? and since they have more slots and more PG/CPU generally do get more DPS than ships bonused to those guns?

BBs are not meant to just be simply better than smaller ships they are a different tool for a different job

You can, but at that point they suck for their big hitter role. (Ignoring stuff like RLML here as a known unbalanced item)
My idea doesn't make them better than small ships because small ships still have the massive advantage of mobility, but what it does is give them a way to apply DPS that will be slightly less than a Frigate/Cruiser to said frigate cruiser, without murdering their primary role.
At that point you are trading mobility for EHP, rather than the current situation which has led to T3D's online, where you are trading so many things just for EHP that it becomes not worth it. Frigates will still be able to pick their engagements, and I am specifically saying that Large guns/missiles should become worse against small ships for this idea as well, so only your small guns are effective.

@Blade. CCP's implementation of balance is bad yes, but their ability to recognise that something needs balancing is actually pretty good. They just fail at the 'how' quite often. T3 will not increase Battleship use though, it will increase T2 Cruiser use instead.
#16 - 2017-05-19 01:03:15 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

When CCP themselves have said that BS are not in a healthy place in the overall Meta, you trying to claim they are shows a serious lack of understanding.


that doesn't mean BBs are underpowered or are the problem. it could also mean that other ships are over powered.


i can think of a certain line that is faster has more tank and hits just as hard as BBs those ships may be the problem.

let's hold off on creating a new problem until we see how the T3 balance plays out
#17 - 2017-05-19 01:06:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


you know you can just put undersized guns onto the BB right? and since they have more slots and more PG/CPU generally do get more DPS than ships bonused to those guns?

BBs are not meant to just be simply better than smaller ships they are a different tool for a different job

You can, but at that point they suck for their big hitter role. (Ignoring stuff like RLML here as a known unbalanced item)
My idea doesn't make them better than small ships because small ships still have the massive advantage of mobility, but what it does is give them a way to apply DPS that will be slightly less than a Frigate/Cruiser to said frigate cruiser, without murdering their primary role.
At that point you are trading mobility for EHP, rather than the current situation which has led to T3D's online, where you are trading so many things just for EHP that it becomes not worth it. Frigates will still be able to pick their engagements, and I am specifically saying that Large guns/missiles should become worse against small ships for this idea as well, so only your small guns are effective.

@Blade. CCP's implementation of balance is bad yes, but their ability to recognise that something needs balancing is actually pretty good. They just fail at the 'how' quite often. T3 will not increase Battleship use though, it will increase T2 Cruiser use instead.



there is nothing wrong with making the choice to fit undersized guns they do not need the ability to swap from shooting frigs to other BBs on the fly. build your fleet around the BB they are not meant to be solo ships. brings ships good at hitting small ones or slowing them down and fit large guns to your BB otherwise fit smaller guns to your BB and laugh when frigs and cruisers think they have found an easy kill.
#18 - 2017-05-19 02:01:06 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

there is nothing wrong with making the choice to fit undersized guns they do not need the ability to swap from shooting frigs to other BBs on the fly. build your fleet around the BB they are not meant to be solo ships. brings ships good at hitting small ones or slowing them down and fit large guns to your BB otherwise fit smaller guns to your BB and laugh when frigs and cruisers think they have found an easy kill.

*pat pat*
And this attitude is why BB's have been lost from 95% of the meta, & why it is now Cruisers online. (Or T3D online depending)
Wrecking Machine.
#19 - 2017-05-19 04:30:51 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

there is nothing wrong with making the choice to fit undersized guns they do not need the ability to swap from shooting frigs to other BBs on the fly. build your fleet around the BB they are not meant to be solo ships. brings ships good at hitting small ones or slowing them down and fit large guns to your BB otherwise fit smaller guns to your BB and laugh when frigs and cruisers think they have found an easy kill.

*pat pat*
And this attitude is why BB's have been lost from 95% of the meta, & why it is now Cruisers online. (Or T3D online depending)

Agreed. Mach fleets don't real.
Limited Expectations
#20 - 2017-05-19 04:59:51 UTC
Faction isn't exactly t1 and how availability/ price can affect the meta we can see on the example of the Pancake. 1200 dps at 150km craps over all subcaps and the only reason russians dont use it 24/7 is it's cost. It costs what a faction bs SHOULD cost compared to a t1. Let's look at Armageddon and Bhal. 50 mil difference for the ship, considering fit cost is very similar, we end up with less than 20% difference total. I don't even have to look at contracts to know the bpc is going for 39 mil.
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