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Alexander Noir

Author
#1 - 2017-05-17 15:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Che Biko
I was planning to post this in Off-Topic, but I figured that if I am serious, I should make this its own thread.
Makoto Priano wrote:
Mr. Biko, when I say two deaths, I mean this: [..] Provists and Dragonaur who used the death of a man of peace and prosperity to press for the war, making a martyr of the man even as they worked against his very ideals.
[..] As to Noir, I have few words. His life was a respectable one. His death was a treacherous one. Conspiracy theories that try to whitewash the man's actions are the worst sort of wishful thinking.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Whatever his accomplishments, can that final act of murderous madness be forgotten?
I understand what you mean with "two deaths", Miss Priano. I just added my own meaning to it.
I hope that that comment about conspiracy theories was not in response to my eulogic post, but people may get that impression. But now you mention them...
So, there are 3 options that are considered well within the range of probability, if I've been able to get a good sense of what people think:

  1. Noir spends his entire life in preparation of the attack in Malkalen, hoping such an opportunity would present itself, without leaving any trace about his true feelings apart from his last broadcast in Malkalen.
  2. Noir was suddenly struck by some kind of psychosis, with no signs being picked up prior to this event by either his family and friends or psychological evaluations by the navy.
  3. Noir was clonejacked.
  4. Noir had a change of heart at some point during his life.

# 1, out of the three, seems most like a "conspiracy" theory to me...also in the sense that this is the only version of events that blackwashes his name.
# 2 I would consider unlikely (although I lack expertise in that field), but not impossible. It would however mean that he is as much a victim of this tragedy as the others.
# 3 Is likely the one you are referring to as being "the worst sort of wishful thinking". I do however think this option is far more probable for it to be labeled as such. How can you be so sure that, for example, the dragonaurs and provists you mention did not kill two birds of peace with one stone? Surely you must have asked yourself how Noir was able to cause the station's shields to fail?
# 4 is certainly possible, but nothing apart from his last day hints to this, and a radical change of heart late in is life is less likely, as people tend to stabilize as they age. If it was early in his life, then #4 starts to resemble #1.

So, to answer your question, Pieter, no, it can not be forgotten. Far from it, it must be investigated, thoroughly, which is why, each year, I remember him more than Gariushi.

Peace.
Caldari State
#2 - 2017-05-17 18:50:19 UTC
Fun that you consider your first option a "conspiracy" one and that the "3rd option" is considered the most probable... Clonejacking isn't a "conspiracy" act ?

I would more go for the 2nd option, maybe not puting this on the psychosis aspect but you never know how people evolve in their life.

His conspiracy was to kill.
Caldari State
#3 - 2017-05-17 19:21:04 UTC
Noir? Just a typical gallente.

We saw their behaviors when news about Gallente Death Squads appeared in Black Rise.
We saw them when there were slogans to "Exterminate Caldari" on Caldari Prime before it was liberated by Tibus Heth.
And of course we still can see what they are doing in Gallente Prison Camps in Black Rise.

I bet on one. And that's not a "conspiracy". It is a standard gallente backstabbing behavior.

Never trust a gallentean.


And yes, thank you, Mr. Kignol. It's #3 sounds more like conspiracy.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Arataka Research Consortium
#4 - 2017-05-17 21:56:54 UTC
I've read his earlier career and, yes, I was impressed. The man did live a life for peace, I freely admit that much.

What happened between his retirement and his death? I've had events happen to me that forced me to revaluate core beliefs of my own. I've made changes that would startle and shock those who knew me when I was a younger man. I've done things that nobody should ever have to do.

All those things change us, line by line.

Maybe something happened to him? Maybe a member of his family or a friend? Maybe he found something out about an incident from earlier in his career that changed his mind about the Caldari?

I don't know. But it wasn't a guy in a rubber Noir mask that climbed into that Nyx. And the Nyx with Alexander Noir on it was the one that smashed Malkalen station.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

#5 - 2017-05-17 23:46:43 UTC
A single spark can cause an inferno https://youtu.be/5XdToFeOTYo that's what happened in my personal opinion
#6 - 2017-05-18 02:01:20 UTC
My question with these sorts of things is usually "who stands to benefit?"

Because so many different military-industrial corporations in both the Federation and the State would stand to make an unbelievable amount of money from a catastrophe that started a war, 3 seems probable to me. It would really only take one heartless money-grubbing executive at any of these companies to make it happen. It wouldn't even have to be the guy at the very, very top. It could've been a rogue.

2 seems probable as well, and probably the least conspiratorial option, though I studied the man a lot growing up, and he never struck me as the pathological type. So, the most believable in terms of simplicity, but not in terms of his personality..

1 seems like the conspiracy theory.

I could see why one would believe either 2 or 3.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#7 - 2017-05-18 03:10:37 UTC
The Admiral had many moments that demanded respect, his last was not one of them. I truly believe you can never know a man, this catastrophe further enforces that belief. It is very possible that some of these conspiracies have been devised, be it out of hope or denial in an attempt to pass on blame and responsibility to another organization, nation or person.

The man ended the lives of many dutiful Caldari. They will not be forgotten and neither will the actions of that man.
Caldari State
#8 - 2017-05-18 10:18:46 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I've read his earlier career and, yes, I was impressed. The man did live a life for peace, I freely admit that much.

What happened between his retirement and his death? I've had events happen to me that forced me to revaluate core beliefs of my own. I've made changes that would startle and shock those who knew me when I was a younger man. I've done things that nobody should ever have to do.

All those things change us, line by line.

Maybe something happened to him? Maybe a member of his family or a friend? Maybe he found something out about an incident from earlier in his career that changed his mind about the Caldari?

I don't know. But it wasn't a guy in a rubber Noir mask that climbed into that Nyx. And the Nyx with Alexander Noir on it was the one that smashed Malkalen station.

Gallenteans, Mr. Tuulinen, can be extremely treacherous. They can build relations for years to try to get closer to you just to get a chance to shove a knife to your back when you drop the guard.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

#9 - 2017-05-18 11:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Che Biko
I've added the following in the first quote box to the OP:
Quote:
4. Noir had a change of heart at some point during his life.
[..]
# 4 is certainly possible, but nothing apart from his last day hints to this, and a radical change of heart late in is life is less likely, as people tend to stabilize as they age. If it was early in his life, then #4 starts to resemble #1.
Bran Kignol wrote:
Fun that you consider your first option a "conspiracy" one and that the "3rd option" is considered the most probable... Clonejacking isn't a "conspiracy" act ?
To the best of my knowledge, clonejacking can technically be done by one person without conspiring with anyone. Maybe it's best if we abandon the terms "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theory" and start using the word 'tinfoil' unless we actually mean to say that people conspired.
I never labeled #3 as the most probable. I pointed out that #3 is far too probable for it to be summarily dismissed as tinfoil theory, without arguments.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
What happened between his retirement and his death? I've had events happen to me that forced me to revaluate core beliefs of my own. I've made changes that would startle and shock those who knew me when I was a younger man. I've done things that nobody should ever have to do.

All those things change us, line by line.

Maybe something happened to him? Maybe a member of his family or a friend? Maybe he found something out about an incident from earlier in his career that changed his mind about the Caldari?

I don't know. But it wasn't a guy in a rubber Noir mask that climbed into that Nyx. And the Nyx with Alexander Noir on it was the one that smashed Malkalen station.
I've adressed some of this with my addition to the OP.
These are good questions, Pieter. But why have these questions not been investigated? If someone/something gave Noir a new perspective, it would be worth investigating who/what that was, no? Why is the response a lack of investigation that can, at the least, easily be perceived as a cover-up?
You say you don't know what happened. So how can you know it was not "a guy in a rubber Noir mask"?
Alex Hinkelmann wrote:
It is very possible that some of these conspiracies have been devised, be it out of hope or denial in an attempt to pass on blame and responsibility to another organization, nation or person.
Yes, this is possible. It is also equally possible that these theories are dismissed as tinfoil, in denial that possibly another organization, nation, or person could be responsible, possibly their own. That none of you have even attempted to answer my questions in the OP has not convinced me this is not the case.
Speaking for myself, I have not devised these theories in denial, quite the opposite. I want to be more sure of what the truth is. The man Noir used to be, or appeared to be, demands we do not jump to conclusions and easy answers. There were many lives lost that day, and the days following it, there needs to be a proper investigation as to why.
#10 - 2017-05-18 13:24:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
I've always held a clonejack to be the most plausible explanation. With respect to Pieter's valid point that people can re-write ourselves line by line throughout our lives, that process requires time, introspection and communication. It is also something that not everybody does with their life. There are persons in this very thread whom I have personally never noticed to be doing any evolving.

A person of strong convictions changes slowly, tortuously and torturedly, if they change at all. I cannot foresee it as likely that such a process would go unnoticed in Noir's case.

Certainly, I consider it unlikely in the extreme that if his true desire was bloodshed that he would devote such immense time and energy to the peace process in the hope that he would have an opportunity to catastrophically betray it someday. That's a plan with far too much potential to backfire, and only the most badly written of cartoon villains would attempt such a convoluted gambit - a real person with an actual agenda would not invite the possibility of a result opposite to the one they desire.

As for a sudden psychosis...Statistically speaking, that's unlikely. Quite aside from the fact that psychoses don't work that way, there's the timing to consider. For him to suffer that exact psychotic episode at that exact moment and in those exact circumstances? We must assign that scenario a vanishingly small likelihood.

Clonejacking requires only a breach of security by a determined party with sufficient resources, and there are more than enough parties out there who benefit from an unstable relationship betwen the State and the Federation, or from a weakened Ishukone. Others have pointed to Provists and Dragonaurs...I'm not so sure. The Provists weren't so potent a force at that time and the Dragonaurs were still firmly out in the cold.

But there are plenty of candidates. I could point to the any of Ishukone's corporate rivals, or even Gariushi's personal rivals. Or maybe senatorial rivals to the Federation's delegation. Then there are the Guristas, the Serpentis, extremist hawkish elements in the FIO, the Amarr Empire, Mordu's Legion or Sansha's Nation...And that's not even mentioning more outlandish ideas like independent capsuleer organizations, or ridiculous conspiracy-theory examples like the Jovians, Terrans or The Broker.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#11 - 2017-05-18 13:36:23 UTC
Somebody help me out here -- show me the trick to reading deep into a person's soul using only public statements and news articles, or to hacking into the clones of the top brass of the Gallente armed forces. It must be really easy if it's anywhere near the best-fitting explanation, and I'm just not seeing it.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2017-05-18 13:39:27 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
With respect to Pieter's valid point that people can re-write ourselves line by line throughout our lives, that process requires time, introspection and communication.


Or a single, traumatic moment.
Arataka Research Consortium
#13 - 2017-05-18 14:57:50 UTC
I think the only honest answer is that we do not know - but just because Noir's crimes have an unknown motivation, that doesn't mean that they didn't happen or that they didn't happen on the Federal Navy's watch.

For now, until some sort of definitive answer can be found, this remains a stain on the Federal Navy's character and it destroys utterly Noir's legacy of peace. You'd think that would make it important to people to find a resolution, wouldn't you? Sadly, the uncertainty around Noir's crime is more important to many people, as this allows it to be legitimately twisted to serve any purpose desired.

Things being what they currently are, it is hard for me to disagree with Hinkelman-haan's dignified sorrow and anger. Ishukone has the right to feel the way that they do about this and it makes their efforts for peace that much nobler.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

#14 - 2017-05-18 19:12:49 UTC
I have watched but refrained from participating in this discussion for obvious reasons.

After all, we are all saying the same old things and trotting out the same old arguments. But, it got me to thinking why I don't attend the Malkalen theatrics?

Let me clarify my thinking.

Admiral Alexander Noir… was a murder.

More accurately he acted contrary to the intentions and interests of the Federation and is considered a war criminal. Wandering Saint killed more than six hundred thousand people. We may never know what delusion prompted Admiral Noir to commit his act of terror. His last chilling message being the only insight into his final motivation. "I have an obligation to my beloved Federation to settle accounts with this hateful race, these cursed Caldarians. For my entire life, I have mourned for Hueromont, wishing, praying, willing for the day when I could strike back on behalf of those souls who perished. Fate has bestowed upon me this grand opportunity, this great day, to make vengeance for all those who gave their lives for the Federation, the true guardian of our precious Gallentean race.... may you rest in peace now, brave souls of Hueromont, and you, kindred spirits of Nouvelle Rouvenor, knowing that I will take back what was stolen from you... Curse you, Caldari... may I take as many of you with me that I can!"

Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba… also a murder.

More accurately he acted exactly as expected by his compatriots. “To this day he is revered as a national hero and his name is one of the first things every Caldari child learns.” We know Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba motivations perfectly. “Eventually only one of his ships remained, a badly damaged fighter-carrier. In his dying breaths, Tovil-Toba directed the huge vessel down towards Gallente Prime.” An intentional act of terror that cost at least two million people their lives in the city of Hueromont.

Alex Hinkelmann wrote:
The man (Admiral Alexander Noir) ended the lives of many dutiful Caldari. They will not be forgotten and neither will the actions of that man.
So to Mr. Hinkelmanns observation, when I am reminded of the Malkalen ‘disaster’, I reflect on what was lost but also consider that there haven’t been any statues erected to Admiral Noir, an important difference there don't you think. One reviled... one venerated.

So I must agree with Mr. Bilko, it is appropriate when remembering one, we remember the other.

But forgive me, I ramble. In a lively, discussion a young Piot cautioned me against anger. He said, "Anger will never disappear so long as thoughts of resentment are cherished." A quote he attributed to Karin Midular.

It's good advice. It's just a pity so few of us head it.
Arataka Research Consortium
#15 - 2017-05-18 21:07:20 UTC
Again. One started a war and one bought enough time with his death to get enough civilians off Home to make the State viable. Also, Tovil-Toba brought down the U-Nat government.

I hate to be saying 'The ends justify the means' but.... To us, the ends were survival.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Caldari State
#16 - 2017-05-18 21:10:47 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba… also a murder.

More accurately he acted exactly as expected by his compatriots. “To this day he is revered as a national hero and his name is one of the first things every Caldari child learns.” We know Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba motivations perfectly. “Eventually only one of his ships remained, a badly damaged fighter-carrier. In his dying breaths, Tovil-Toba directed the huge vessel down towards Gallente Prime.” An intentional act of terror that cost at least two million people their lives in the city of Hueromont.

No, he wasn't a murderer. Nor it was an act of "terror". It was an act of distraction.

How people can forget history that fast? How they can forget that when Admiral Tovil-Toba did that there was the WAR, and when Noir committed his terror act there was PEACE?!... I believe the history textbooks should be available in every store and I strongly recommend all IGS posters to learn the history first before answering! Don't shame yourself, don't shame your side, learn the facts first!

Admiral Tovil-Toba saved billions of lives from gallente oppression, giving Caldari time to evacuate the planet. He with just his vessel attacked superior invader forces, bringing the fight to their home to divert their forces away from us. He sacrificed himself to SAVE HUMAN LIVES.


On the other hand, what Noir did, it was an act of treachery, of hatred and anger. No, no sane people should be able to compare act of Noir with act of Tovil-Toba. What Noir did is the same with what Dragonaurs did when they successfully demolished Nouvelle Rouvenor... with one exception. Dragonaurs were their own organization, that doesn't belong to the State legally. While Noir represented the Federation as being the Admiral of the Federation Navy.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

#17 - 2017-05-18 22:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
Alex Hinkelmann wrote:
The Admiral had many moments that demanded respect, his last was not one of them. I truly believe you can never know a man, this catastrophe further enforces that belief. It is very possible that some of these conspiracies have been devised, be it out of hope or denial in an attempt to pass on blame and responsibility to another organization, nation or person.




When the man commits an act that is literally undoing all of the work of his life, and flies as opposite as possible in the face of everything he was and did, it's far from wishful or emotional thinking to find that very suspicious. The only real explanation of that is a total psychotic break or a clone-jacking. It would be highly irrational to think his act was just one of many in his life and, well, people make mistakes. People don't flip on a dime to that degree and level of significance unless they've gone completely insane or unless some very extreme event drives them to do so.. and to my knowledge, peaceful progress was being made, so that's out of the question. Unless, like Pieter suggested, he was changed slowly since retirement, and nobody noticed.. which is possible, but would be a testament to the massive failure of hundreds of people who knew him to keep track of him. You'd think that'd be important for a man piloting a giant supercarrier near a station.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

#18 - 2017-05-18 22:57:26 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Again. One started a war and one bought enough time with his death to get enough civilians off Home to make the State viable. Also, Tovil-Toba brought down the U-Nat government.

I hate to be saying 'The ends justify the means' but.... To us, the ends were survival.
We can never get past the excuses, can we. Who started the war? You say it was us, we say it was you, one horror blamed for another, blamed for another, blamed for another.... By the time one turns to love the other has turned to hate, the cycle continues.
Caldari State
#19 - 2017-05-19 09:46:14 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Again. One started a war and one bought enough time with his death to get enough civilians off Home to make the State viable. Also, Tovil-Toba brought down the U-Nat government.

I hate to be saying 'The ends justify the means' but.... To us, the ends were survival.
We can never get past the excuses, can we. Who started the war? You say it was us, we say it was you, one horror blamed for another, blamed for another, blamed for another.... By the time one turns to love the other has turned to hate, the cycle continues.

Name any military operation of Caldari State Navy forces against the Federation between Treaty of Tierijev and Noir's attack.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

#20 - 2017-05-19 12:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
. Also, Tovil-Toba brought down the U-Nat government.


Don't forget how he also cured cancer, made the sun and the moon rise and rode the Raven Eternal to the great afterlife.
I get it you adore the man but good grief lets not attribute to him things he certainly did not do.

Actually, come to think of it, you've recently claimed that Hueromont was an accident ("having some of the debris strike a city out of happenstance"), then revenge(" all he knew was that SOME part of Gallente Prime would know what it was like to receive death from the skies. "), and now you say he single handedly brought down a government - or that at least it was entirely his merit, not of the Federation citizens who rose up against their government.. Could you decide what he did and did he do it intentionally or did he not?

And before anyone asks, yes, you have recently started to **** me off, because you interpret everything your heroes did with astounding positivity, yet you have immense trouble letting other people even think about the same about theirs. Hell, nobody here has actually considered Noir a hero, quite the opposite, but have just questioned what made him do what he did - and you can't let people even do that.
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