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Different styles of Station Trading (How often do you sit on stock?)

Author
Zvoma Zvanda
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2017-05-15 17:10:13 UTC
New to station trading, just using it to fund a bit of solo PVP which I'm enjoying very much. Let me start by explaining my usual approach:

Default flipping: (1) see item with > 10% difference between buy/sell order for an item (e.g. ammo); (2) list ammo b/o, update 0.01 isk as required; (3) b/o fills; (4) set a s/o for the ammo more or less immediately, update when needed; (5) s/o fills, ammo is swapped for a profit around the original estimated figure.

Pretty standard trading, then.

However, I found that on a few occasions the s/o price has plummeted since setting the original b/o. So if it's relisted, the profit margin will be under the 10%. So, I've kept the stock, stuck it in a can (with intended s/o tag) and fingers crossed I will list it when the s/o goes back up. Since doing this, I've been wondering, ''what if I intentionally set a b/o without the <10% isk difference, to resell later?''

Question is: how common is this practice (not relisting immediately), how often is it done intentionally, and what is this type of trading called?

Thanks in advance for patience. Worth adding, I know nothing about market/trading/accounting in RL. But I'm aware of some 101 things like the Bullworth burger.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#2 - 2017-05-15 17:44:31 UTC
If you use the price history tab in the industry tool you should see that the price is cyclical - Eve is a commodity market and behaves much like commodity markets in the real world. If the price is high, people will pile in and drive it down. When it gets too low they will abandon ship and it will snap back - sometimes dramatically. There may be 3rd party tools that help with this, I am more of a manufacturer than a trader and don't use them.

If you buy in the bottom half of the cycle and sell in the top half you will make a profit. It could take a while, since solvency is rarely an issue in virtual markets, they can remain irrational far longer than real markets. The key is making sure your product is listed before the race to the bottom finishes so you catch the bounce. Experience helps - after a couple of years you understand the products you trade, can see the patterns forming and anticipate the move. CCP can always do something disruptive but they usually disclose their intentions well in advance.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#3 - 2017-05-17 00:20:12 UTC
Personally I'm turnover focused on most items.

Long term purchases are an exception, not the norm.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Valona Siura
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-05-17 00:44:13 UTC
Most traders have a mix of buy orders consisting of some they "own" and some they contest.
Market pvp consists of protecting the "owned" buy orders and aggressively attacking the "contested" buy orders generally by crashing the market until somebody blinks 1st.
Having not played since citadels were introduced it seems that "real pvp" as opposed to "market pvp" has now been introduced to trading. Insofar as I loathe "real pvp" I think my Eve trading career is over.
I still have untold billions of isk however which I'm pondering what to do with.
Cista2
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2017-05-17 05:08:54 UTC
Valona Siura wrote:
Most traders have a mix of buy orders consisting of some they "own" and some they contest.
Market pvp consists of protecting the "owned" buy orders and aggressively attacking the "contested" buy orders generally by crashing the market until somebody blinks 1st.
Having not played since citadels were introduced it seems that "real pvp" as opposed to "market pvp" has now been introduced to trading. Insofar as I loathe "real pvp" I think my Eve trading career is over.
I still have untold billions of isk however which I'm pondering what to do with.

When you say crashing the market with buy orders, do you mean sell orders?
And what do you mean with "real PvP" in trading?

My channel: "Signatures" -

Marek Kanenald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2017-05-17 09:36:38 UTC
I often sit on stock and regularly sell with >50% margin.

I prefer it over .01 isk fighting the entire day.


Ormly
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2017-05-17 10:15:49 UTC
I've sat on stock for two years. But that was 50/50 not logging in and forgetting I had it. Did triple my isk investment though.
Zvoma Zvanda
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2017-05-17 20:35:50 UTC
Thanks for the insightful replies. I was wondering whether traders keep their cards close to their chest, so I appreciate this.

If I keep stock for too long and cash in, doesn't the worth of isk depreciate (and by worth, I mean how much plex you get for it)?

The other thing, how possible is it to predict spikes and dips in the market? There seem so many variables (patch changes, wars, player base). Some things seem cyclical sometimes, but many products seem to zip up and down dramatically.

Do you specialise in the same products to learn them better? And stick to high volume or high value products, or just go where the margin differences are?

Planning to experiment for a couple of months with a couple of billion, between quick turnaround and longer term investment.

Any good podcasts/YouTube vids for more advanced tips?
Krysenth
Saints Of Havoc
Fidelas Constans
#9 - 2017-05-17 22:55:12 UTC
For completed stuff, zkill can be a good measuring stick to use as well. Gives a breakdown of what's lost and can give an idea for manufacturing or an idea of what to sit on for a bit. An example that's out of date by several months now, is Scimitars. Few months ago they rose in price from ~150 a hull to over 200 a hull (think they peaked at 220ish). Plus their manufacturing cost stayed the same. If someone had a stockpile of t2 components and enough manufacturing lines, they'd have been able to make substantially more profit out of it.
Cista2
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2017-05-18 06:12:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
Zvoma Zvanda wrote:
If I keep stock for too long and cash in, doesn't the worth of isk depreciate (and by worth, I mean how much plex you get for it)?

Not really.
But there is one important thing to be aware of. When your goal is to become the richest player in EVE, or really whatever goal you have with your trading, what you want to maximise is not your profit per sold item, but your profit per time unit.

You might think those two are the same but they are not. Visualise to yourself: how rich am I 2 months from now? If you keep a particular item you have and sell it when the price is absolutely highest, you may earn for example 30% on that item after exactly 2 months.
But alternatively, you could sell this item RIGHT NOW and earn 0% on it, then buy another item WITH THAT ISK and earn 20% on that after one month, then buy another item and earn 20% after one one month. This would mean after 2 months you would have earned something like 44%.

You would become richer if you have sold your item immediately for no profit at all.
The technical term for this argument is "Opportunity cost". Every day that you "decide" to keep your item in your stock, you lose the opportunity to buy something else.

People tackle this trading challenge differently. Personally, I am not very technical - I take the view that any item in my inventory was given to me for free, indeed like the SKINs that CCP give us sometimes for free.
I pretty much erase the buy prices from my memory and I am only interested in one thing: when is the optimal time to sell this item (that I got for free) to maximise my wealth over time!

As a practical example, I have been selling off half of all the implants that I had in stock, because I noticed all the prices were generally decreasing over the past few weeks. I may even have sold some of these implants with a loss, but I wouldn't know and wouldn't care, because it is only the price going forward I am interested in. I judged that it will be the better option for me to take the money now and invest it in something I believe will give me more profit in the next two-three weeks.

My channel: "Signatures" -

AnakieNine
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2017-05-18 11:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: AnakieNine
Trading comes in all styles and sizes. Just become proficient at what ever you do. Your trading style should never stay stagnant. Change will occur either due to knowledge, time, net worth or just love of the game.

Pick a style that you enjoy the most or hate the least, and become efficient at it. Expect to make a loss.
If instead you make a reasonable return, then expand on that system with your time or your ISK.

Most important when you get bored change it up!

A large part of my current style of trading has matured into the long game. I pick future growth areas and invest into those areas over time. Basically transferring my current peak valued assets into new low value assets that will likely peak in the future. It suits my long game.

I have held onto items for up to 5 years as an investment to maximize profits because I didn't need to sell. Busy selling other things and they where still increasing in vaule. Something I wouldn't recommended for the average item or even the average player, but something worth doing once you have more assets than you can ever sell. Some items have taken me years to actively sell my stock off.

Remember every trader has a different reason for trading. Understanding your competition is important, but be careful as you can get it wrong and it can be costly when starting out.

I have been a trader for over 10 years. I started as a technical trader for the first few years as was dictated by my funds and my need to maximize profit. Since then I have been a producer, a speculator, a price manipulator rotating through about 50 different items at a time (including all minerals) and pushing prices up or down by 30%. I have been just an emotional trader to see what would happen or to prove a point or to dominate a market. I even played the 0.01 game in domain using regional orders for a few years at Jita prices to dominate the market and push domains growth. The point is, in eve, it is hard to make a loss trading if you spend the time and effort.The biggest problem with trading is it takes isk to make isk. Trading is easier as you get more ISK. The first 50bill is exponentially harder than your future billions will be.

Take note of Cista's post. There is lot of valuable information there for any trader that is serious about trading as a career.
Tanuki Kittybeta
Ripperoni in Pepperoni
Trigger Warnings
#12 - 2017-05-21 04:24:57 UTC
I have a very good trading plan always seems to work all the time. heres what i do

i buy an item for, what i think is, a good price. then after waiting for a few days, i see that the item actually goes lower, and that i bought in at a pretty high price. after learning this, i panic sell and i complete my trade.

ive had lots of negative gains for this im really pleased