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Kill Contracts

Author
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-05-14 21:12:15 UTC
Bounties as they were, were too easy to exploit. Now, a portion of the bounty less than the value of the isk the target lost is transferred to the people who made the kill.

A kill contract could be much more specific. It would be to target a player, in a certain ship class.

For example, if there's a dude who I know likes to park a marauder on a lowsec gate, I could create a kill contract on that player for him to be killed in a marauder. Or if I have a hard-on for someone who I know likes to fly in a carrier, again, make a contract for that player to lose a carrier.

The contract system would then advise me of the base cost of the ship based on "stuff" (current eve market valuation stuff) as a good idea of whereabouts the bounty should lie.

Killing the player in a rookie ship, or any other ship, wouldn't complete the contract. In essence, the contract targets the player's ship. Sure if you make the bounty outrageous, they could just buy an empty hull and get popped by a friend, but with advisements on the price of the hull, you'd have to know better.

To stop people from simply taking the contracts on themselves (via alts or friends) it would not be a contract that you could "take". As such I'm not sure "contract" is the right term; it would likely need to be a separate mechanic. It would be there for anyone to see.

Potential uses:
1) I know that someone will be in a system, and I want to hire mercs to engage them. I pay their retainer fee, and then I create a contract with a 1 day expiration for said player in a marauder. They see the contract, and know that my money is good. No fight means no profit, but they still get their retainer. Fight means profit.
2) I get angry with so-and-such about stuff and things. I know he has a special edition ship. I put the contract out, and hope for an awoxer.
3) The usual bounty stuff


I can't see any room for exploitation, can you?
The-Culture
#2 - 2017-05-14 21:33:26 UTC
We have taken contracts like this in the past, its perfactly reasonable to set up something like this over comms or in a chat channle.
I dont really see why we would need something ingame that can be handled with a five minet chat
with your local reputable band of murderers with negotiable motivations .

To be clear , im not shilling for buisness but just pointing out that this is something players already do.
#3 - 2017-05-14 22:34:42 UTC
Plat insurance on any non t2 vessel + no fittings. I don't think you realise how little someone loses in that case. Since generally speaking asking people to hunt a specific target is an expensive undertaking. Since not only do they ahve to hunt the target, they have to camp the target till they get in the perfect ship.

Alts of the target taking the contract then deliberately not completing the contract. and if you implement any kind of collateral from the mercs, making juicy scam contracts on yourself with your alt, then never flying the correct vessel for the contracts to force the mercs to default on their collateral. either way it's abusable.

if the contract is open to everyone, again, they see a contract on themselves and just don't fly that single ship for a while, instead they go and fly a different marauder or use a pirate BS, or a T3 etc.

It's not a terrible idea, but the number of loop holes that will make the system highly cumbersome and therefore not see use are pretty high, while a player negotiated agreement might not be as secure it can deal with loop holes like that via common sense.
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-05-14 22:52:43 UTC
Ralph, I simply don't trust people in Eve. The only person I trust is someone whose home address is committed into memory, having given them the forewarning that I know how to put gasoline into bottles with rags hanging out the end.

A contract legitimizes things.




Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Plat insurance on any non t2 vessel + no fittings. I don't think you realise how little someone loses in that case. Since generally speaking asking people to hunt a specific target is an expensive undertaking. Since not only do they ahve to hunt the target, they have to camp the target till they get in the perfect ship.

Asking someone to specifically hunt would be an edge-case. I'm proposing they be as visible as bounties and kill rights are now. Regarding the actual amount of isk lost, you are right there that platinum insurance on any non-t2 ship negates most of a loss. That said, T2 and T3 are far more valuable.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Alts of the target taking the contract then deliberately not completing the contract. and if you implement any kind of collateral from the mercs, making juicy scam contracts on yourself with your alt, then never flying the correct vessel for the contracts to force the mercs to default on their collateral. either way it's abusable.

As mentioned, the contract would not be a "contract" per say.. it would be visible to everyone, not "taken" by anyone, and that contract is perhaps a misnomer. There would be no collateral, just ISK into escrow for the kill payment.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

if the contract is open to everyone, again, they see a contract on themselves and just don't fly that single ship for a while, instead they go and fly a different marauder or use a pirate BS, or a T3 etc.

That's why I said ship classes. "Marauder", for example, not "Golem" or "Paladin". And if I can force them out of a ship they are fond of using by increasing the risk of using that ship, I'd say that's even more effective than actually killing them in that ship. I know I'd far rather deal with a T3 on gate than a marauder, or a carrier/dread.


#5 - 2017-05-15 03:07:04 UTC
bounty hunting corps already do this though a proper contract would be nice and I have been suggesting it for years.


best way I see to lay it out is just like a normal contract so you can make it public or private.
on the next page you can set up the target(s) of the bounty
third page you set up the total bounty pool minimum km value for payout % of km for the pay out and max pay out per kill.

this would be an extremely flexible tool for setting up bounties and would truly give life to the profession outside of the handful of groups currently dedicated to this.
Mercenary Coalition
#6 - 2017-05-15 05:59:54 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
I can't see any room for exploitation, can you?

Do I get this right: You can just setup a killright for a person without that person necessarily having done anything illegal in terms of game mechanics to kill this person without concord intervention? Does this answer your question?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

#7 - 2017-05-15 06:02:37 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
I can't see any room for exploitation, can you?

Do I get this right: You can just setup a killright for a person without that person necessarily having done anything illegal in terms of game mechanics to kill this person without concord intervention? Does this answer your question?


i see nothing wrong with this at all
#8 - 2017-05-15 08:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vokan Narkar
Ralph King-GriffinI wrote:
dont really see why we would need something ingame that can be handled with a five minet chat
with your local reputable band of murderers with negotiable motivations .

To be clear , im not shilling for buisness but just pointing out that this is something players already do.

Because something like public kill right gives opportunity to everyone not just known mercs. Also, OP might not be aware of you or any other mercs and don't know who to contact.

Kill contract is simply more transparent and doesn't give opportunity to scam. Currently, you either have to trust the mercs they do the job and pay in advance or they have to trust you will pay and kill in advance.

With a public contract it can also happen that you kill someone and then you check contracts and find him there and get extra bonus from the random kill.
#9 - 2017-05-15 13:06:47 UTC
-1

You can set up a contract now so we do not need another idiotic game mechanic that can be abused in more ways than there is space here to enumerate.
If you do not trust other players then go do the dirty deed yourself.
If you do make a contract and the other party does not honor that contract then go kill them.

Test Alliance Please Ignore
#10 - 2017-05-15 13:40:37 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
We have taken contracts like this in the past, its perfactly reasonable to set up something like this over comms or in a chat channle.
I dont really see why we would need something ingame that can be handled with a five minet chat
with your local reputable band of murderers with negotiable motivations .

To be clear , im not shilling for buisness but just pointing out that this is something players already do.


I'm not really sure how kilrights work living in J-space there is little need for such. But if some one can officially contract a kill right to a particular person in some fashion shouldn't that make things better? I would expect people to actually bid over the chance to use a killright in the hopes of a shiny kill and some loot.
Caldari State
#11 - 2017-05-15 16:26:14 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
I can't see any room for exploitation, can you?

Do I get this right: You can just setup a killright for a person without that person necessarily having done anything illegal in terms of game mechanics to kill this person without concord intervention? Does this answer your question?


Tell me... if you collect a bounty on someone in highsec, will concord intervene?

Truth be told I'd love to see highsec become far less highsec. But no. You do not get this right. The mechanics behind attacking someone remain the same, gate guns in low and concord in high.

Donnachadh wrote:
You can set up a contract now so we do not need another idiotic game mechanic that can be abused in more ways than there is space here to enumerate.
If you do not trust other players then go do the dirty deed yourself.
If you do make a contract and the other party does not honor that contract then go kill them.

1) Since the ways to exploit are so plentiful, please, do share
2) Eve is a multiplayer game. Single person content is discouraged. "Do it yourself" isn't even remotely relevant here
3) I fail to see how you can use a courier contract to kill someone. Or an item exchange. Or an auction. Please... share some of your wisdom?

All told, the only thing you've managed to do is display remarkable ignorance.

Caldari State
#12 - 2017-05-15 16:30:42 UTC
Kind of a double post, but I just thought of a much more useful application for something like this.

Highsec deccers.


Say you're in a carebear corp, you get decced, and you accept assistance from a merc corp. 9 times out of 10 said merc corp won't do jack-all to help. I've no experience with this, but look in the C+P forums and you'll see many complaints about it.

Instead, their retainer fee (the fee paid to dec the deccers) becomes small, and then the carebear corp can contract out kills when they've observed the deccers camping a gate.

Now, the merc corp has actual incentive to go and engage the deccers they've been paid to engage.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#13 - 2017-05-17 02:45:32 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Kind of a double post, but I just thought of a much more useful application for something like this.

Highsec deccers.


Say you're in a carebear corp, you get decced, and you accept assistance from a merc corp. 9 times out of 10 said merc corp won't do jack-all to help. I've no experience with this, but look in the C+P forums and you'll see many complaints about it.

Instead, their retainer fee (the fee paid to dec the deccers) becomes small, and then the carebear corp can contract out kills when they've observed the deccers camping a gate.

Now, the merc corp has actual incentive to go and engage the deccers they've been paid to engage.


Really this should just be a player solution, players paying merc corps based on kill mails.
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-05-17 03:06:38 UTC
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
[Really this should just be a player solution, players paying merc corps based on kill mails.


Old Pervert wrote:
Ralph, I simply don't trust people in Eve. The only person I trust is someone whose home address is committed into memory, having given them the forewarning that I know how to put gasoline into bottles with rags hanging out the end.

A contract legitimizes things.


In Eve scams are not just a thing, they are a subtly encouraged thing.
Mercenary Coalition
#15 - 2017-05-17 05:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Old Pervert wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
I can't see any room for exploitation, can you?

Do I get this right: You can just setup a killright for a person without that person necessarily having done anything illegal in terms of game mechanics to kill this person without concord intervention? Does this answer your question?


Tell me... if you collect a bounty on someone in highsec, will concord intervene?

Truth be told I'd love to see highsec become far less highsec. But no. You do not get this right. The mechanics behind attacking someone remain the same, gate guns in low and concord in high.

Good. And what is the point of your suggestion in this case? You put a bounty on someone's head and issue a kill contract but whoever takes the contract cannot kill this person legally. Your suggestion is not a kill contract but just another way to say "bounty". And since you need to either war dec that person or gank them in order to kill them, your bounty idea makes bounties even more useless than they where when you could just collect them with an alt. Did I understand you correctly this time?

If you want High sec to be less high security, go to low sec space. That's what Low sec stands for and it needs more people like you to populate it more.
Old Pervert wrote:
3) I fail to see how you can use a courier contract to kill someone.

All told, the only thing you've managed to do is display remarkable ignorance.

Oh, this is gold. Roll Here, let me show you something: Kill: Charon See what that Charon carried? That's how you use a Courier Contract to kill someone. This is being done on a quite large scale. By this group on the kill mail in the Eitu area, it used to be done a lot by Hard Knocks Inc. with similar contracts between Jita and Amarr or to the Mastakomon area in The Forge. CFC and CODE third party on courier contracts regularly with ganks in Niarja and Uedama areas by cargo scanning freighters on the way there.

It is quite comical that you accuse that other guy of being remarkably ignorant when you don't seem to have an idea what people can do, do, and will do to do nefarious things. Remarkably comical.Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Caldari State
#16 - 2017-05-17 21:28:17 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Good. And what is the point of your suggestion in this case? You put a bounty on someone's head and issue a kill contract but whoever takes the contract cannot kill this person legally. Your suggestion is not a kill contract but just another way to say "bounty". And since you need to either war dec that person or gank them in order to kill them, your bounty idea makes bounties even more useless than they where when you could just collect them with an alt. Did I understand you correctly this time?

If you want High sec to be less high security, go to low sec space. That's what Low sec stands for and it needs more people like you to populate it more.

I live in null actually, I only go into highsec when I want to go to Jita, and generally into lowsec when we feel like running a non-doctrine roam from Jita.

The difference between this and a bounty is that bounties remain unclaimed for a long time; this is because the payout is marginal, unless you find them in a very shiny ship. My main flies with a bounty all the time, and apart from when I get killed either in home defense or roams, that bounty never gets collected.

The contract offers a much more specific objective for a contracted player or group of players, which more closely fits the desires of the person creating the contract.

Rivr Luzade wrote:

Oh, this is gold. Roll Here, let me show you something: Kill: Charon See what that Charon carried? That's how you use a Courier Contract to kill someone. This is being done on a quite large scale. By this group on the kill mail in the Eitu area, it used to be done a lot by Hard Knocks Inc. with similar contracts between Jita and Amarr or to the Mastakomon area in The Forge. CFC and CODE third party on courier contracts regularly with ganks in Niarja and Uedama areas by cargo scanning freighters on the way there.

It is quite comical that you accuse that other guy of being remarkably ignorant when you don't seem to have an idea what people can do, do, and will do to do nefarious things. Remarkably comical.Roll


No, that is how you scam freighter pilots. Since I've been favoring marauders a lot in my previous posts, I'll continue that trend. Go ahead and kill a marauder with a courier contract. Oh... wait... you mean people won't take those with marauders? Shocked

Get real. Ganking freighter pilots is absolutely possible, if said freighter pilots are stupid (and only if they're stupid). Destroying pvp-fit ships sitting in a gang on a gate is an entirely different matter. Context, in this case, is everything. And your attempt, within my thread's context, is even less intelligent than the person suggesting that existing contracts can be used to incentivize kills on another player.

And just because that hair can be split, I'll split it for you. Yes, this kill contract could work on players in freighters. And that is the only cross-over between the two.
Mercenary Coalition
#17 - 2017-05-18 07:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Old Pervert wrote:
The difference between this and a bounty is that bounties remain unclaimed for a long time; this is because the payout is marginal, unless you find them in a very shiny ship. My main flies with a bounty all the time, and apart from when I get killed either in home defense or roams, that bounty never gets collected.

The contract offers a much more specific objective for a contracted player or group of players, which more closely fits the desires of the person creating the contract.

You don't get it, do you? If your kill contract does not create a kill right, no one can legally or easily kill the target in high sec. Either the ganking is too expensive or the target does not undock during a war or just leaves corp to an NPC corp. If you go for ganking, the bounty needs to be higher than the ships that you need to gank the target. If we take freighters as example, that is at least 6-7 Taloses, or 500-600M just for the ships, profit not included. If your kill contract does not pay at least this price, who would be going to gank a target? However, if this kill contract creates a kill right even though the target has not done anything to legally earn a kill right from you (ie. has attacked your ship in high sec or attacked your pod in low sec), why should you be able to have that person killed legally? Furthermore, people could and would just blanked issue such contracts on anything that moves and is juicy or defenseless in order to get easy kills and not lose their ships in the process, effectively making ganking pointless and freighter piloting a death sentence.

So, what is it now?

Old Pervert wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Oh, this is gold. Roll Here, let me show you something: Kill: Charon See what that Charon carried? That's how you use a Courier Contract to kill someone. This is being done on a quite large scale. By this group on the kill mail in the Eitu area, it used to be done a lot by Hard Knocks Inc. with similar contracts between Jita and Amarr or to the Mastakomon area in The Forge. CFC and CODE third party on courier contracts regularly with ganks in Niarja and Uedama areas by cargo scanning freighters on the way there.

It is quite comical that you accuse that other guy of being remarkably ignorant when you don't seem to have an idea what people can do, do, and will do to do nefarious things. Remarkably comical.Roll


No, that is how you scam freighter pilots. Since I've been favoring marauders a lot in my previous posts, I'll continue that trend. Go ahead and kill a marauder with a courier contract. Oh... wait... you mean people won't take those with marauders? Shocked

If I remember correctly, the forum does for me ("I fail to see how you can use a courier contract to kill someone.), you were not talking about Marauders in particular in this post. I suggest you should get your context in order first. Roll

Your lack of knowledge about emergent gameplay mechanics is troubling, to say the least. Just because you are "favoring" Marauders does not mean that they are the only ships that you can kill with your contracts. And destroying a Marauder with 6 Taloses is a very easy task, PVP fitted or not. And even if it was a difficult task, the points above are still not answered: Who would gank a target if the bounty is not high enough to pay for the gank ships. Why should you be able to issue a kill right even though you weren't attacked in a way that gives you the justification to do that?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

#18 - 2017-05-18 13:58:04 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
1) Since the ways to exploit are so plentiful, please, do share

I will not waste the others players time with a list since several of them have envisioned ways this can be abused or exploited but I will post the single most important potential exploit / abuse. Your contract system would allow players to bypass the rules of engagement in high sec, if you change the idea to allow for full compliance with high sec rules of engagement then your kill contracts are essentially as worthless as the current bounty system so why waste dev time on the idea.

No we do not need kill contracts for low, nul and worm holes, as you state this is a multi-player game and finding someone in these areas that will kill a target is usually easily accomplished. Hell all I have to do with my low sec character is post up in corp chat that I want someone killed and it gets done no contract and no payment required.

Old Pervert wrote:
2) Eve is a multiplayer game. Single person content is discouraged. "Do it yourself" isn't even remotely relevant here

Multi-player is not relevant here.
Killing because you do not like someone is a highly PERSONAL thing to do.
Your kill contract is highly personal since it would be issued between YOU and the single individual that accepts it.
If staying true to the multi-player ideal is this important then you need to change your idea so that multiple players (more then two) are required for it to work.

Old Pervert wrote:
3) I fail to see how you can use a courier contract to kill someone. Or an item exchange. Or an auction. Please... share some of your wisdom?

No wonder your ideas area always so terrible, you have no imagination and no ability to see or work around problems.
Courier contracts could be used, simply let the contract with something cheap to be delivered.
Set the value of the contract to whatever insignificant amount you want because this payment is not relevant so I suggest a single (1) ISK.
Set the days to whatever you want, or the max the game will allow, you can always re-let the contract if it expires.
Set the delivery location.
In the note section in simple terms tell the contractor who you want killed and that they will receive X amount of ISK upon delivery of the item and verification of the kill.
Done, courier contract used to let a kill contract on someone.

Not going to go into how the others could be used, since it is obvious from your comment quoted below that you consider yourself to be significantly more intelligent than I am it should be easy for you to figure it out.

Old Pervert wrote:
All told, the only thing you've managed to do is display remarkable ignorance.


I have figured ways to use virtually all of the contracts available in the game to let a kill contract, you cannot even figure out how to do it with even one of them.

I can easily see how your contract idea would be exploited / abused to bypass the rules of engagement in high sec, yet you have not been able to see that negative aspect of your idea.

Changed so your contracts cannot be used to bypass the rules of engagement in high sec I am able to see that it would be as worthless as the current bounty system, yet you are not able to see this simple fact.

And you call me ignorant. Figures, and it is so typical.


Caldari State
#19 - 2017-05-18 15:04:14 UTC
I'm impressed. As they say in tropic thunder, "don't go full ******".

Donnachadh:
1) You've completely bypassed the content of this thread, otherwise you would have seen that this idea was specifically declared to follow the existing engagement rules.

2) You are right, you don't NEED contracts to kill in low, null, and wormholes. But you might WANT one. You don't NEED a courier contract to move goods, you don't NEED an item exchange contract. You WANT them. Why? It reduces the likelihood of a player or group of players reneging on their agreement. "Just kill them if they renege" is only valid if you have that capacity in the first place.

3) They are different from the bounty system. If I put 100 billion isk on a player who exclusively flies T1 frigates in FW, will that bounty ever get fully collected within our lifetimes? Yes 100 billion is a big and outrageous number. But it illustrates the differences (and drawbacks) between bounties and this.

4) My kill contract could be as simple as knowing that Joe Shmoe's corp has decced mine, and I want to run a freighter through a system that I've scouted and know they're camping. I want to push their camp off, so I make a contract out to kill specific ships from their camp to cut its balls off so that I can get through. There's nothing "personal" about that.

5) As I have said literally in my very last post, a courier contract will only kill someone who choses to take a courier contract, and only in the ship they choose to take it in. I wish I could change the font to something nice and big, to help you understand it better. I'll settle for capslock. Ready?

CONTEXT IS RELEVANT TO WHAT YOU SAY. WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THIS THREAD, A COURIER CONTRACT WILL NOT ACCOMPLISH THIS GOAL. YES YOU CAN SCAM A FREIGHTER PILOT. NO YOU CANNOT KILL A PLAYER IN A DESIRED SHIP UNLESS THAT DESIRED SHIP IS A FREIGHTER.

6) I provided an example of highsec deccers to show how, even without altering the rules of engagement, it can absolutely be useful. Try reading, as ignoring the content of this thread and spouting your mindless drivel is the prototypical definition of ignorant.



Rivr:
1) No, you don't get it. I'm not looking to alter the rules of engagement. I am looking to incentivize players to kill other players on the desires of another. You and the other tool I am replying to both seem to hinge this on changing the ROE to allow for ganking in highsec. THAT. IS. NOT. THE. GOAL. Hopefully caps will help your reading comprehension as well. I doubt it.

2) Yes, congratulations, you can take 14 words out of context (in a post where I specifically commend your ability to remove things from context) to justify your completely irrelevant answer. Comical, almost, but like they say never go full ******.

It is almost an unsaid expectation that the context of a conversation within a forum thread hinges on the post it is replying to. I made an OP, you replied to the OP, I replied to you, etc. Ultimately the context is the OP. I very clearly mentioned a marauder there.




~~~

To reiterate to both of you, since you'll probably TLDR to the bottom, pick out a few words, and say something almost nonsensical again:

This is not to change the Rules of Engagement. This is to incentivize kills. Maybe within the context of a highsec gate camp where you've contract merc assistance. Maybe in lowsec where you know a player is camping and you want to get through with something that will otherwise get caught.
Mercenary Coalition
#20 - 2017-05-18 17:30:35 UTC
You do not incentivize kills at all with your suggestion. The only thing you do is give people another bounty-thing to waste their money on. How does a 50M bounty incentivize a kill if you need to invest hundreds of millions to claim it? (No, war decs are not the solution or a way to legally kill the target because they can just leave corp to an NPC corp and switch back to another player corp.) Your kill contract does also nothing to "help getting through a gate camp that would otherwise catch you." There are no fairies popping out of no-where to remove that camp.

I am also not the least bit interested in changing the ROE. If you don't want to see the ROE changed, that makes me happy. But your suggestion is pointless without it. A 600M bounty on my freighter pilot, for instance, did not incentivize gankers or other people to engage it, even though you get a sizeable chunk of it if you kill the freighter and only need to invest a fraction of it to destroy the ship. Limiting the payout to a single ship type is not going to help either.

I take nothing out of context. You mentioned lots of things in the OP, Marauders, Carriers, rookie ships, to name a few things. I just added a thing. A thing, mind you, that is a lot more likely to get targeted than your completely speculative Marauder target.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

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