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Why doesent EVE have an in-game stock market?

Author
manus
RENSCORP
#1 - 2017-05-07 13:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: manus
The shares are already implemented. With a in-game stock market i think it will give players an additional mechanic to come up with interesting gameplay.
manus
RENSCORP
#2 - 2017-05-07 14:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: manus
In a time when shares in EVE can be traded among players on some sort of stock exchange (I think CCP should get to work on this ASAP, its a cool feature) there are a few problems as far as i can tell. For example players who quit EVE would have shares that are paying out dividends. This is a problem because, well, the money is going into a black hole.

A solution to this "problem" could be that when dividends are paid out players would have to claim them. But there would have to be a timer on this claim. I was thinking what would be fair, but instead ended up thinking why dont the CEO set up the timer when he makes the dividend?

So when you payout the dividend, you also chose the time that people have to claim it. All the money gets reserved, and if there is any left over because people havent claimed it, it gets returned to the corp. This is useful for corps who want to do weekly or monthly or perhaps even daily dividends. It also gives corps an idea of how many shares are "active" and wether or not to create more etc. Its hard to say which timer people will prefer and it will be nice for players to have some flexibility here to experiment with.
manus
RENSCORP
#3 - 2017-05-07 14:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: manus
You could take this idea of stocks pretty far. For example they could be made into in-game items, so that they are vulnerable to piracy and theft.

You could have a new type of station that was specifically for stock exchange.

The stock exchange could be player built and thus destructible.

I think its this type of thing that will push EVE online in the right direction and keep players interested as well as attract new ones.

For example the idea is very marketable. Afaik there is no other MMO that has in-game stock exchange. It could make some great headlines.

And the first stock exchange that gets blown up etc. could also make some interesting headlines depending on the damage etc.

All in all i think this kind of feature is something CCP ought to focus their attention on.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#4 - 2017-05-07 15:26:26 UTC
The problem is there is no SEC in New Eden. There is absolutely nothing to prevent an unscrupulous CEO from pocketing your money - same as the scammers in Jita local. CCP Quant has floated the idea of game mechanics to support collateralized loans but it's unlikely we'll see any financial instruments in game unless they are secured by collateral held in escrow.

You are free to sell shares in your corporation or buy shares in someone elses but it's a trust based transaction.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#5 - 2017-05-07 15:28:36 UTC
As for someone who is leaving because of boring updates you sure propose boring updates. (More) market pvp is not I'd enjoy to see. Trillionaires are already bad as they are (remember that one that bought half of the game?), no need for quadrillionaires. Stock exchange is heaven for speculation as you don't even deal in real goods anymore.


manus wrote:
For example the idea is very marketable. Afaik there is no other MMO that has in-game stock exchange. It could make some great headlines.
Spreadsheets in Space introducing "Stock Trading Simulator" DLC!
manus
RENSCORP
#6 - 2017-05-07 15:39:33 UTC  |  Edited by: manus
Do Little wrote:
The problem is there is no SEC in New Eden.


Why is that a problem? Players would not buy shares unless they trusted the company. And those who buy shares without doing due diligence deserve to get rekt?

Quote:
You are free to sell shares in your corporation or buy shares in someone elses but it's a trust based transaction.


Depends on what you mean by free. At the moment buying and selling shares is poorly supported by game mechanics. The functionality to do it is very crude. I think there should be a stock exchange that made it easy for players to list, buy and sell shares. It could work just like the market browser, it has just the right amount of info/functionality. Volume, historic price and even a chart for visual representation of price movement etc.




Quote:
As for someone who is leaving because of boring updates you sure propose boring updates. (More) market pvp is not I'd enjoy to see. Trillionaires are already bad as they are (remember that one that bought half of the game?), no need for quadrillionaires. Stock exchange is heaven for speculation as you don't even deal in real goods anymore.


Just because you dont like something does not mean its a bad idea. Besides, i am giving suggestions for how the game could be made more interesting for me. Perhaps you should do the same instead of complain? Do you understand what im saying? Where is your suggestion for how to make the game better? (Ddont post it here. its a rhetorical question.)
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#7 - 2017-05-07 16:37:23 UTC
manus wrote:
Where is your suggestion for how to make the game better?
One could only assume it's somewhere in the posts I have made. Probably in threads related to current issues and on something that's being reworked or on the roadmap. Those posts might be hard to find as I'm trying not to make a new suggestion thread every 48 hours, but I'm sure someone dedicated to good ideas will find them.
Beta Maoye
#8 - 2017-05-07 17:21:29 UTC
Because stock exchange needs modern world's law and regulation system to operate but EVE, in the middle age of space, has literally no laws. If you are really interested, take a look at the listing company manual at New York Stock Exchange and think about how to implement those rules in the game. They are prohibitively complicated for most players. In fact, they will need an army of lawyers and accountants to do that in real world.
manus
RENSCORP
#9 - 2017-05-07 18:59:32 UTC
Quote:
Because stock exchange needs modern world's law and regulation system to operate but EVE,


Fake news. All a stock exchange is, is a way for players to trade shares. It doesent need any oversight, for reasons i mention above. Players wont buy shares from corps they dont trust and dont have a reputation, and those who do run a risk and kind of deserve to get rekt if it turns out to be a scam. Of course the most trustworthy shares are going to be most valuable and least trustworthy are going to be least valuable. I cant believe i have to point this out.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#10 - 2017-05-07 19:54:25 UTC
The problem with "it's ok, nobody will buy shares of untrustworthy companies" is that 99.99999999999999999999% of companies in EVE are untrustworthy. Either they're running a scam from the beginning, or they'll take the money and run as soon as it becomes too tempting. So you're talking about spending development time on a feature that, like the current share system, will hardly ever be used.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#11 - 2017-05-07 20:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Do Little
If you want a stock market, set yourself up as a broker and create one. CCP doesn't need to create any tools. I can go to my wallet and give shares to anyone I please. They can give me ISK in exchange. Since this is a 100% trust based relationship, the only missing piece is a broker to bring buyer and seller together.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#12 - 2017-05-07 20:07:41 UTC
First i must say.....wow manus something from you i do not entirely despise.

2nd.

Only way for a real stock exchange to work in my opinion is for the Dev's to create some sort of in game thing.
Maybe something along the lines of

1.) A corp's CEO may place up to 50% of total corp shares into some sort of NPC escrow thing.
2.) A re-work of how Corp taxes operate.
3.) Then allow for Corp Taxes to be accumulated into this escrow thing (as in half the taxes obviously)
3a.) mission reward/bounty taxes
3b.) corp tax applied to any contracts that places ISK in any corp wallet
3c.) corp tax applied to any of the structure fees that places ISK in a corp wallet.
4.) The shares placed in this escrow thing do not allow for corp voting, only for receiving dividends.
5.) have it setup that other players can see these shares and corps in some sort of list.
6.) must create a ranking system based on shares worth, based on amount of income(taxes) going into these shares, basically showing corporate activity fro players to judge whether or not to invest.
7.) investment funds of purchasing said shares go directly into a main corp wallet
8.) obviously the investment cost per share must be higher than any said dividend per share is currently paying out.

just some thoughts, but even following a semblance of what i said would probably be a monumental task.....and i am sure take some dev's away from other projects. You are not asking for something simple here.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2017-05-08 05:24:20 UTC
manus wrote:
The shares are already implemented. With a in-game stock market i think it will give players an additional mechanic to come up with interesting gameplay.


Because how would you enforce any contracts?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2017-05-08 05:36:23 UTC
Do Little wrote:
The problem is there is no SEC in New Eden. There is absolutely nothing to prevent an unscrupulous CEO from pocketing your money - same as the scammers in Jita local. CCP Quant has floated the idea of game mechanics to support collateralized loans but it's unlikely we'll see any financial instruments in game unless they are secured by collateral held in escrow.

You are free to sell shares in your corporation or buy shares in someone elses but it's a trust based transaction.


You don't need an SEC. The SEC was founded in 1934, whereas the NYSE was founded in 1817.

What is needed is a way to enforce contracts between parties. For example, suppose I start a company. Suppose I am going to build a given tech 2 items, lets say 425mm Railgun IIs. I put up say, 5 billion of my own ISK and issue shares for say, annother 10 billion. Then I transfer all ISK to my character's wallet and shut down the corporation.

How do you get your ISK back?

You don't.

Trust is very, very important in an economy. As the example above shows, without some mechanism to enforce legal contracts then it all boils down to trust. And what is the basic motto in EVE aside from "Don't fly something you can't afford to lose"? "Trust no one." So even though the eve economy grows and is pretty impressive it is a pale comparison to what it would be like if there was such a legal structure in the game.

Further, it is not something players can create. The reasons are several, IMO. First, we are essentially immortal. You can pod me every day for a month, but it won't do anything to get your ISK back. Second, even if you could make my life with that character rather uncomfortable, I could extract all my SP, sell them or not, create a new character, transfer everything over to him, then biomass my embezzler. Inject the SP (yes, I'd lose some of the SP) and ta-da now I have a new character untainted by his previous embezzlement.

For players to create this death would have to be more meaningful...as in when you die, brand new character time with just starting SP. Also, all your stuff...gone. And no creating a new character while the current one is alive. You think players are risk averse now....with these changes the game would probably look very, very different.

In short, why don't we have a stock market? The same reason all attempts to start a bank end in that bank being nothing more than a giant scam.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2017-05-08 06:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
manus wrote:
Quote:
Because stock exchange needs modern world's law and regulation system to operate but EVE,


Fake news. All a stock exchange is, is a way for players to trade shares.I

I laughed harder about this naivete than I probably should. Modern stock exchanges are not about trading shares, they are about speculating on how a market, a company may or may not develop, how a company, country develops or when it goes bankrupt, what a person says or not says or implies with either or, what a government might do or might not do and how this can be influenced in wealthy stock holders' favors, speculations on food, raw resources, water and so on for the sake of profit on the backs of millions. It is about computers outbiding each other, not humans trading shares.

Convert this to EVE and you have people manipulating share prices for a profit for their pockets and ruining other people's wallets, people feigning super awesome prospects for their shares while they are just trash value and the issuers run off with the money people naively gave them, people exploiting their members so that they can meet dividend promises, people scamming with shares that are not their own, people luring other people into their alts' corps for the sake of milking them for dividends, people exploiting any and all loopholes to the system for their personal gains, not for the sake of trading shares.

@Teckos Pech
Yes, indeed, trust is very important in the economy. But trust only works when you can enforce it and hold the parties accountable. That does not work in EVE, at all.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#16 - 2017-05-09 22:55:23 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:


@Teckos Pech
Yes, indeed, trust is very important in the economy. But trust only works when you can enforce it and hold the parties accountable. That does not work in EVE, at all.


With the new PLEX mechanism, is it not easier to allocate collateral for any high stakes trade?

If a company that owns shares places those in a prospectus, the counter offer would be in the form of PLEX as escrow. Any misdeed, and the PLEX is forfeit.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#17 - 2017-05-10 00:53:08 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
With the new PLEX mechanism, is it not easier to allocate collateral for any high stakes trade?


No. Collateral is a completely broken concept in EVE. If you have enough assets to put up as collateral that any sane person is going to offer you a loan then you can just sell those assets and have the money you need, and you can make that sale faster than you can arrange a loan deal. It works in the real world because collateral is usually the thing you're buying with the loan (which, unlike an EVE ship, is not likely to be destroyed a few minutes after you buy it) and you can't give all your money to alts and disappear to avoid the consequences of breaking a deal.
Cade Windstalker
#18 - 2017-05-10 01:18:01 UTC
I believe the last time I saw someone from CCP respond to a question like this the answer was basically that Eve by nature doesn't have any of the mechanisms of enforcement that make a real life stock market work. The few times players have tried to set up something like this on any kind of scale it's taken anywhere between weeks and months before someone got greedy and ran off with the piggy bank.

IMO CCP just sees no reason to invest development time on something that would pretty much literally only be used for scams.
Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#19 - 2017-05-10 01:25:25 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:

It works in the real world because collateral is usually the thing you're buying with the loan (which, unlike an EVE ship, is not likely to be destroyed a few minutes after you buy it) .


You are illustrating quite appropriately the risk factor of setting up this exchange. If a player provides tangible collateral that can, using your example, undock and be diverted from the terms of contract, what is the point? Quite simply, the earnings potential.

If a player offers another entity in the game assets toward the latter's investment conditions, the purpose is to cover the demand push, hazards and any other upfront setups / rewards to get something lucrative to the next level. This is entirely different from sale of assets into immediate ISK, for the investment terms would specify a potential return that both parties find attainable, beyond the calculable risk.

Haulers do this all the time. The reason I argue for PLEX as collateral is it has become more of an electronically transferable asset than ever before.


Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2017-05-10 01:34:06 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:

It works in the real world because collateral is usually the thing you're buying with the loan (which, unlike an EVE ship, is not likely to be destroyed a few minutes after you buy it) .


You are illustrating quite appropriately the risk factor of setting up this exchange. If a player provides tangible collateral that can, using your example, undock and be diverted from the terms of contract, what is the point? Quite simply, the earnings potential.

If a player offers another entity in the game assets toward the latter's investment conditions, the purpose is to cover the demand push, hazards and any other upfront setups / rewards to get something lucrative to the next level. This is entirely different from sale of assets into immediate ISK, for the investment terms would specify a potential return that both parties find attainable, beyond the calculable risk.

Haulers do this all the time. The reason I argue for PLEX as collateral is it has become more of an electronically transferable asset than ever before.




Merin's point there is no mechanism for this. With hauling contracts there is a built in mechanism. For lending there is not. I posted a link on how to do this you'd need to modify the current contract mechanics to allow for something like this.

As it stands right now, any attempt to use PLEX in this way will just means somebody is getting scammed.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

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