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Take capital ships apart into Major Assemblies for easier transport

Author
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2017-04-02 17:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I normally advocate for short-range logistics but today I've got a suggestion that may be veering more toward long-range logistics.

The idea is to allow capital ships to be disassembled into major assemblies which can be transported individually and reassembled anywhere else that capital ships can be assembled. Any citadel or complex outside of empire space and also large enough would be able to reassemble capital ships from major assemblies. Anywhere a capital ship is docked, it could be converted into major assemblies as long as there is a packaging service available. X-Large Ship Assembly Arrays would also be able to strip a capital down into major assemblies as long as it had an inventory to dump them into.

I'm sure supercapital major assemblies should take up considerably more space in order to make them more difficult to transport. Perhaps they would be too large for a jump freighter and only fit into a full-size freighter.


Effects of this proposal as-is:
Smaller capital ship assemblies could be bought and sold in highsec and then transported out to nullsec or wormhole space to reassemble. It would become much easier to get capital ships into wormhole systems. Capital ships could be transported in plastic wrap. Capital ships could be disassembled from one part of the galaxy and reassembled at another.


I am already aware that this suggestion will be shot down because it greatly boosts force projection of capital ships, and I also agree it might not be the best thing to implement. But I want to hear what other people think about it and tweak the idea as we go along.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2017-04-02 17:29:29 UTC
Mostly I think that this greatly boosts force projection and would be an awful idea for that reason alone.

Why should it be easier to move caps around again?
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2017-04-02 18:49:31 UTC
How do you propose keeping supers out of wormholes?

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#4 - 2017-04-02 21:01:19 UTC
Hmm, what if a disassembled capital would fill at least two freighters and it would take at least a day to do it and a few days to put it back together again?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Bjorn Tyrson
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#5 - 2017-04-02 21:35:30 UTC
If there is a teardown and reassembly time then maybe.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2017-04-03 00:28:51 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
How do you propose keeping supers out of wormholes?

I don't have a solution for that yet, but if their major assemblies are too large for a jump freighter, you'll only be able to take them into wormhole systems where capital ships and freighters can jump through. You also would need a facility capable of building or tethering supercapitals in order to build them back out of their major assemblies.


elitatwo wrote:
Hmm, what if a disassembled capital would fill at least two freighters and it would take at least a day to do it and a few days to put it back together again?

Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
If there is a teardown and reassembly time then maybe.

It should probably have the same total volume as the packaged ship, which means it'll take two freighters or more.

Teardown and reassembly time makes a lot of sense to help reduce the power of using this as a means for force projection. I want its main purpose to be for trade, not force projection. I'll support having it be an alternative method of force projection, but it should not be an overall buff to force projection.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Cade Windstalker
#7 - 2017-04-03 01:47:05 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I don't have a solution for that yet, but if their major assemblies are too large for a jump freighter, you'll only be able to take them into wormhole systems where capital ships and freighters can jump through. You also would need a facility capable of building or tethering supercapitals in order to build them back out of their major assemblies.


If these things are too large for a Jump Freighter then what, exactly does this gain you?

Also you would need them to be too large for a Freighter for this to work, at which point why bother? Everything but a Titan is already larger than a Freighter can fit packaged.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
It should probably have the same total volume as the packaged ship, which means it'll take two freighters or more.

Teardown and reassembly time makes a lot of sense to help reduce the power of using this as a means for force projection. I want its main purpose to be for trade, not force projection. I'll support having it be an alternative method of force projection, but it should not be an overall buff to force projection.


Increasing force projection is something to avoid, especially since you're basically taking something that would normally take almost a week under current mechanics to move from one end of the game to the other and basically dropping that down to a single day.

Oh and on top of that you're going to have to deal with what to do about rigs and making parts individually identifiable since, I would assume, they would have to belong to individual ships rather than any given back bit going with any other front bit.

Overall I'm not much of a fan of this. There are already mechanisms in the game for moving caps around. This is a solved problem. The only thing this adds is a way around Jump Fatigue.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2017-04-03 04:29:23 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Increasing force projection is something to avoid, especially since you're basically taking something that would normally take almost a week under current mechanics to move from one end of the game to the other and basically dropping that down to a single day.

Overall I'm not much of a fan of this. There are already mechanisms in the game for moving caps around. This is a solved problem. The only thing this adds is a way around Jump Fatigue.

You're right, it gets around jump fatigue. It also puts them out of harms way by allowing them to make part of the trip in highsec. For those reasons, it should probably take longer to take them apart and put them together than it takes to jump them directly.


Cade Windstalker wrote:
If these things are too large for a Jump Freighter then what, exactly does this gain you?

Also you would need them to be too large for a Freighter for this to work, at which point why bother? Everything but a Titan is already larger than a Freighter can fit packaged.

If they can be carried by freighter but not jump freighter, then you can't jump them across space. The way to transport these would be to jump the capital itself to lowsec right next to highsec, disassemble it, then escort or slingshot a couple of freighters to the station to pick it up and take it to highsec. You'd do the same in reverse to put it back down. Pilots could also purchase some of the assemblies separately and take them one by one to a lowsec station until they have enough parts to assemble the ship. I'm thinking basic capital ship assemblies should fit in a large industrial or DST, so that increases options for purchasing carriers, force auxiliaries, dreadnoughts, and rorquals from highsec.


Cade Windstalker wrote:
Oh and on top of that you're going to have to deal with what to do about rigs and making parts individually identifiable since, I would assume, they would have to belong to individual ships rather than any given back bit going with any other front bit.

I meant for the assemblies to be pieces of packaged ships. Your rigs would be lost when taking the ship into major assemblies, and your modules, ammo, fuel, etc. would have to be transported separately. Each assembly need only have an assembly name and a ship type, for instance a Revelation Engineering Center--you need one of these to put a Revelation together but it doesn't matter where you get it from.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Cade Windstalker
#9 - 2017-04-03 19:20:45 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
You're right, it gets around jump fatigue. It also puts them out of harms way by allowing them to make part of the trip in highsec. For those reasons, it should probably take longer to take them apart and put them together than it takes to jump them directly.


At which point you now have a week+ timer for the full process, not counting travel time, because you pretty much need to balance this for the longest case move someone might reasonably be making.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
If they can be carried by freighter but not jump freighter, then you can't jump them across space. The way to transport these would be to jump the capital itself to lowsec right next to highsec, disassemble it, then escort or slingshot a couple of freighters to the station to pick it up and take it to highsec. You'd do the same in reverse to put it back down. Pilots could also purchase some of the assemblies separately and take them one by one to a lowsec station until they have enough parts to assemble the ship. I'm thinking basic capital ship assemblies should fit in a large industrial or DST, so that increases options for purchasing carriers, force auxiliaries, dreadnoughts, and rorquals from highsec.


Jump Bridges, bridging Titans, Wormholes, ect. All of these give you a way around this sort of issue, and the slightly lower mass of a Freighter compared to a Carrier/Dread allows you to use more Wormhole connections than you could use with a full Capital Ship.

If you allow these things to fit into a DST or similar then you've just massively increased the options available to players for moving these things around. For a start anything you can fit into a DST I can probably fit into a Blockade Runner, at which point I can Covert Cyno a Carrier anywhere I want without significant impact from Jump Fatigue.

This also means I can now get a Carrier in or out of a low-class Wormhole, which totally isn't super broken and OP at all...

It's not like buying a Capital is particularly hard as-is. Any decent sized Alliance sells them cheap, tons of 0.0 renters do industry and will sell capitals, and you can literally just buy a Carrier or Dread in Low Sec. Even Supers aren't hard to buy if you're not completely stupid about it, doubly so if you're in an Alliance big enough to use the things. See aforementioned buy programs most Alliances large enough to own Supers have.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-04-03 23:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Cade Windstalker wrote:
For a start anything you can fit into a DST I can probably fit into a Blockade Runner,

That is patently false. DSTs have a 50,000m3 fleet hangar. Blockade runner can't even reach 15,000m3. Large industrials can all go higher than 30,000m3. If the assemblies were 25,000m3 each, you could haul them in large industrials, deep space transports, Orcas, freighters, or jump freighters, but not small industrials or blockade runners.


Cade Windstalker wrote:
This also means I can now get a Carrier in or out of a low-class Wormhole, which totally isn't super broken and OP at all...

How would you reassemble this carrier inside a low-class wormhole? Can larger citadels or full-size starbase towers be anchored in these?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#11 - 2017-04-03 23:55:18 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
...DSTs have a 50,000m3 fleet hangar. That is patently false....


Sorry I had to correct the order of those two sentences and my Bustard has a 67.500m³ fleet hangar.

Carry on.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Cade Windstalker
#12 - 2017-04-04 00:03:26 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
That is patently false. DSTs have a 50,000m3 fleet hangar. Blockade runner can't even reach 15,000m3. Large industrials can all go higher than 30,000m3. If the assemblies were 25,000m3 each, you could haul them in large industrials, deep space transports, Orcas, freighters, or jump freighters, but not small industrials or blockade runners.


Okay fair point, so only really well equipped groups can flit their Cap Ships across space via Titan bridging and everyone else will have to rely on luck with Wormholes, because no one is ever going to haul a Cap Ship gate to gate in pieces unless it's through High Sec.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
How would you reassemble this carrier inside a low-class wormhole? Can larger citadels or full-size starbase towers be anchored in these?


??? Yes? Of course?

There is a Keepstar one jump out of Amarr, there are no restrictions on what Citadels you can anchor anywhere, the only restrictions are on what you can fit them with and what they can build. You can only build Supers and Titans in Sov Null, and Capitals in Low and below.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2017-04-04 00:50:23 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
??? Yes? Of course?

There is a Keepstar one jump out of Amarr, there are no restrictions on what Citadels you can anchor anywhere, the only restrictions are on what you can fit them with and what they can build. You can only build Supers and Titans in Sov Null, and Capitals in Low and below.

Then with the current proposal, people could insert a fleet of cap ships into any C1 in which they had access to a POS or citadel, with the time to reassemble being the only limiting factor.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Cade Windstalker
#14 - 2017-04-04 02:36:04 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
??? Yes? Of course?

There is a Keepstar one jump out of Amarr, there are no restrictions on what Citadels you can anchor anywhere, the only restrictions are on what you can fit them with and what they can build. You can only build Supers and Titans in Sov Null, and Capitals in Low and below.

Then with the current proposal, people could insert a fleet of cap ships into any C1 in which they had access to a POS or citadel, with the time to reassemble being the only limiting factor.


Which would be ridiculous and broken, in hilarious fashion.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-04-04 05:09:49 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Which would be ridiculous and broken, in hilarious fashion.



I want to discuss the capability groups have of putting capital ships into wormhole systems at current. As I understand it, before citadels, a group would have to anchor a large POS, put an X-Large Ship Assembly Array in it, and round up the resources, then manufacture the capital ship in the POS. The blueprints say they take 23 days to manufacture, so with skills you can probably cut that down to about 15 days minimum.

Due to time constraints and requiring ownership of a station for so much time, a group could find an empty system and build capitals in it, and then use those capitals to prevent other groups from moving in. An important factor here is that the capitals take longer to build than it takes to demolish the POS they are being built in.

With citadels I guess now you can manufacture the capital ship in roughly the same manner but docked inside the citadel.


Are my times correct? Are there other factors that influence this? Do citadels make it easier to get capitals into wormhole systems?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#16 - 2017-04-04 05:46:15 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Are my times correct? Are there other factors that influence this? Do citadels make it easier to get capitals into wormhole systems?

Currently, building capitals in a WH which doesn't allow them access while powerful is also locking them into that WH to never be used anywhere else.
Your proposal suddenly turns a C1 WH into a safe capital manufacturing base, since only your alliance can have capitals in it (provided you keep an eye out for new citadels) and you just roll your WH's till you get a good exit.

So no, for that reason alone.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#17 - 2017-04-04 06:05:36 UTC
I kinda of like this idea, if it might give me the ability to build Cap ships in highsec but not undock them.

I only looked at a few but the carriers and dreads all seemed to be 1,300,000 m3 packaged.

divide that by 3 and you get like 433,333.33 m3...........middle, center, front (can make specific names later like "engineering section")

Ok, lets round that up to a simple 435,000 m3 for each section (idk could be packaging, support struts, tools etc to account for the xtra m3)

You would still need a Regular Freighter to cart them around which is fine with me. As i think JF are simply to small for that size.
Or Break it down into 5 parts per cap, which would be 260,000 m3 small enough for a JF but only 1 section at a time.

Now as to time, most Caps take what 8-10 days, 9 on avg to assemble from cap parts.

Ok for time: 4.5 Days to reassemble the ship (or basically 108 hrs) ((derived this from (9/3)+(9/5) ))

So total production time would include making of Cap parts, Disassembly, Transport, Reassembly. I think once figured out this would be more trouble than its worth for Power Projection. Hell, 9 days(make ship), tear down 24 hrs, reassembly 4.5 days. Your talking about 2 weeks at best, 5.5 days at best not including transport for ships already owned, might as well jump at that point.

It would give a slight boost to maybe those that want to build Caps out of highsec simply for ISK making purposes (or adding to their resume as a cap producer to get into a null group)

Titans we can just assume are not able to be moved in sections or whatever for what ever reason, lets leave those alone purely for the nullsec indy guys. It is their toys after all. Other Caps though can and are built in losec however, why not let highsec guys if they wish to take a shot at it also and be able to market them as well.




elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#18 - 2017-04-04 07:41:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Are my times correct? Are there other factors that influence this? Do citadels make it easier to get capitals into wormhole systems?

Currently, building capitals in a WH which doesn't allow them access while powerful is also locking them into that WH to never be used anywhere else.
Your proposal suddenly turns a C1 WH into a safe capital manufacturing base, since only your alliance can have capitals in it (provided you keep an eye out for new citadels) and you just roll your WH's till you get a good exit.

So no, for that reason alone.


Wait, Nevyn, C1's don't get the "big" connections for freighters as much if any since they have to have a "very large ships can go through" ones.
The "large" connection can squeeze an Orca through but then you close "the door" behind you.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2017-04-04 08:11:24 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
The "large" connection can squeeze an Orca through but then you close "the door" behind you.

I was proposing allowing the pieces to be carried in smaller ships. But that would mean so many pieces that you'd still be collapsing at least one wormhole just to get a single capital ship in through the door.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2017-04-04 11:24:00 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Oh and on top of that you're going to have to deal with what to do about rigs and making parts individually identifiable since, I would assume, they would have to belong to individual ships rather than any given back bit going with any other front bit.

I meant for the assemblies to be pieces of packaged ships. Your rigs would be lost when taking the ship into major assemblies, and your modules, ammo, fuel, etc. would have to be transported separately. Each assembly need only have an assembly name and a ship type, for instance a Revelation Engineering Center--you need one of these to put a Revelation together but it doesn't matter where you get it from.

I only see this possible by making it work similarly as the T3Cs' subsystems, except this time each ship will have only one of each type of assembly. So you would need 3-5 assemblies depending on the size of the ship, plus a "frame" to be manufactured separately. This would need a complete rework of the blueprints and the manufacturing methods, and you would be able to store capitals as components safe in stations, and put them together at a nearby citadel much faster than you build them from basic materials right now.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

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