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Was the Minmatar Epic Arc designed to be annoying on purpose?

Author
Knowledgeminer
Oriens Vis
#1 - 2017-03-25 18:06:19 UTC
Whoever designed the L4 Minmatar Epic Arc (Wildfire) doesn't play EvE or has only completed that arc once if at all, right?

Not only does that arc require a ridiculously high number of jumps, but it takes you to do some of the missions in Ammatar space, yet at least one of those missions (Heresiology) causes you to lose standings precisely with that faction if you kill the ships that are shooting at you.

This is incredibly bad design, as it means one may eventually lose the ability to do the Epic Arc as a result of simply doing it multiple times, especially if one also does Minmatar storylines, which cause negative Ammatar derived standings, i.e. one may lose the ability to do the Minmatar Epic Arc as a result of doing Minmatar missions. How silly is that?

Unless the purpose is to make this arc as annoying as possible by forcing pilots to go through hoops to complete missions without shooting the ships that are shooting at them, because of course having to go 11 jumps forth then another 11 back to do just a single encounter mission isn't annoying enough...
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2017-03-25 18:47:25 UTC
Yeah, I agree having to travel out of Minmatar Republic controlled space to run their Epic Arc is definitely bad game design. Not to mention the rewards for each ending pathway is unbalanced.


Final Rewards:

Retraction Path - 10x RSS Core Scanner Probe (Base Sensor Strength 45 points) and Minmatar Republic Faction Standing increase = +5% Base (+6.25% with Social 5)

Revelation Path - 25 Million ISK and Minmatar Republic Faction Standing increase = +10% Base (+12.5% with Social 5)


I've completed the Level 4 Minmatar Epic Arc at least 7 times now. Since I'm mainly an explorer, I did the Retraction Path one time to get the RSS Core Probes. The standing increase for that ending path needs to be raised to +10% Base to keep it in line with all of the other Epic Arc's Faction standing reward.


DMC
Knowledgeminer
Oriens Vis
#3 - 2017-03-25 20:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Knowledgeminer
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Not to mention the rewards for each ending pathway is unbalanced.

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying the payout of the Retraction path is too low and you've done the other path 6 out of 7 times because of that? Have you checked how much those probes are worth in the market? I agree it's unbalanced, but not the way you think, and the reason could be how annoying this arc is, LOL.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Zulu People
#4 - 2017-03-26 04:06:12 UTC
Knowledgeminer wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Not to mention the rewards for each ending pathway is unbalanced.

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying the payout of the Retraction path is too low and you've done the other path 6 out of 7 times because of that? Have you checked how much those probes are worth in the market? I agree it's unbalanced, but not the way you think, and the reason could be how annoying this arc is, LOL.


The probes are like 25mil each on market.

I totally agree with you about the annoying jumps, but for the Ammatar ships, nobody forces you to kill them, and I think that you can actually complete the mission faster without killing them.

I believe that the annoying jumps and several tank-hack missions in this epic arc are meant to tell you to fly a T3C instead of a battleship.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2017-03-26 07:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Knowledgeminer wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Not to mention the rewards for each ending pathway is unbalanced.

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying the payout of the Retraction path is too low and you've done the other path 6 out of 7 times because of that? Have you checked how much those probes are worth in the market? I agree it's unbalanced, but not the way you think, and the reason could be how annoying this arc is, LOL.

I wasn't talking about the monetary value of each reward but now that you mentioned it, if you check the monetary value of the rewards from all the other Level 4 Epic Arcs, you'd see they are worth much more than the Minmatar rewards.

I was actually referring to the amount of Faction standing increase reward for the two ending pathways. Each of the other Empire Level 4 Epic Arcs all give the same amount of Faction standing increase of +10% Base (+12.5% with Social 5) no matter which ending pathway is chosen. However the Minmatar Level 4 Epic Arc is the only one with an ending pathway that gives half of the usual amount of Faction standing increase.

Retraction Path - Minmatar Republic Faction Standing increase = +5% Base (+6.25% with Social 5)

Revelation Path - Minmatar Republic Faction Standing increase = +10% Base (+12.5% with Social 5)

If you had continued reading my original posted reply in this thread you would have seen this :
Quote:
Since I'm mainly an explorer, I did the Retraction Path one time to get the RSS Core Probes. The standing increase for that ending path needs to be raised to +10% Base to keep it in line with all of the other Epic Arc's Faction standing reward.
So yeah, the Minmatar Level 4 Epic Arc rewards are definitely unbalanced when compared to all of the other Level 4 Epic Arcs.


DMC
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#6 - 2017-03-26 08:33:17 UTC
I find the caldari one a lot more annoying with the whole mandatory go to low or null.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#7 - 2017-03-26 15:46:34 UTC
In many ways I find this type of complaint hysterically funny. We spend forever telling new players to get out an explore all that EvE has to offer. And then when we as vet players are faced with something that requires us to get out and explore all that EvE has to offer all we can do is complain about the travel.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Zulu People
#8 - 2017-03-26 16:26:33 UTC
Agondray wrote:
I find the caldari one a lot more annoying with the whole mandatory go to low or null.


but they're non-combat or light-combat ones that can be done in a frigate, unlike the Minmatar ones requiring you to fly a lv4 mission ship forth and back.
Knowledgeminer
Oriens Vis
#9 - 2017-03-27 00:15:37 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I wasn't talking about the monetary value of each reward but now that you mentioned it, if you check the monetary value of the rewards from all the other Level 4 Epic Arcs, you'd see they are worth much more than the Minmatar rewards.

I was actually referring to the amount of Faction standing increase reward for the two ending pathways. Each of the other Empire Level 4 Epic Arcs all give the same amount of Faction standing increase of +10% Base (+12.5% with Social 5) no matter which ending pathway is chosen. However the Minmatar Level 4 Epic Arc is the only one with an ending pathway that gives half of the usual amount of Faction standing increase.

This is getting messy, let's hope I don't make it even more so while trying to clarify it... :)

In your first post, you said "the rewards for each ending pathway is unbalanced", and then showed the total rewards for each path. I don't see how this could be interpreted in any way other than you were referring to the total rewards for each path, not just the standing increase.

What wasn't clear to me, and is the reason I said "not sure what you mean" when I replied, is what did you mean by "unbalanced".

I interpreted it as you meaning the paths were unbalanced with each other, i.e. that the rewards for one path were much better than for the other, because you reinforced that idea saying you had chosen one of the paths just 1 out of the 7 times you've done the arc and only because you wanted the probes for yourself, so I replied saying that yes, the rewards are unbalanced but the other way, i.e. the Retraction path that you've done only once has much better rewards than the other path that you said you've done the other 6 times.

I wasn't comparing the rewards of the Minmatar Epic Arc with the other Epic Arcs because I didn't interpret you were doing that either.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
If you had continued reading my original posted reply in this thread you would have seen this :
Quote:
Since I'm mainly an explorer, I did the Retraction Path one time to get the RSS Core Probes. The standing increase for that ending path needs to be raised to +10% Base to keep it in line with all of the other Epic Arc's Faction standing reward.

Not only did I also read that part of your original post, but I commented on the fact that you had done the Retraction path only once. I just didn't quote the original post in its entirety because I considered it unnecessary to put my reply in context. I don't want my posts to take more screen space than necessary to express what I want to say.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2017-03-27 01:29:51 UTC
Yeah, I said "the rewards for each ending pathway is unbalanced" which is definitely a fact. I posted the rewards for each pathway to show how unbalanced they are. In my opinion the monetary value of each Ending Pathway isn't the issue, it's the amount of standing increase that's unbalanced.

Yes I said I did the Retraction Path one time just to get the probes since I'm an explorer. The only reason I do the other Path is because it has a larger amount of Faction standing increase.

I thought I had clarified that with my ending statement, and I quote :

Quote:
The standing increase for that ending path needs to be raised to +10% Base to keep it in line with all of the other Epic Arc's Faction standing reward.



DMC
guigui lechat
the no fock given
#11 - 2017-03-27 02:54:25 UTC
In each case the monetary value of the epic is too low to be considered interesting by it self. The plain standing gain however is interesting if you want to raise your 4 empire standings.

It takes several hours to make those arcs.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2017-03-27 03:13:40 UTC
guigui lechat wrote:
In each case the monetary value of the epic is too low to be considered interesting by it self. The plain standing gain however is interesting if you want to raise your 4 empire standings.

It takes several hours to make those arcs.

Yes exactly the point.

Disregarding the monetary reward value, each of the 4 Empire Epic Arcs have 2 ending pathways that give Faction standing increase reward. Amarr Caldari and Gallente give +10% Base Faction standing increase for both ending pathways. Minmatar however only gives it to one ending pathway while the other ending pathway gives +5% Base Faction standing increase reward.

That's what I'm saying is unbalanced. I'd be interested in seeing a record of which ending pathway is chosen by players. I'm thinking it's the ending pathway that gives the higher percentage of Faction standing increase.


DMC
Knowledgeminer
Oriens Vis
#13 - 2017-03-27 17:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Knowledgeminer
Not everybody does Epic Arcs for the same reason.

I have 9.90+ standings with everything Gallente and Minmatar, -10.0 with the Amarr and Caldari factions. I like missions against "enemy" empire factions more than missions against pirate factions, I like encounter storylines more than regular missions, and I don't let that negative standings crap get in the way of me having fun while making decent ISK doing missions.

Epic Arcs for me are just another type of missions that add variety and a much more interesting underlying story. I'm well aware how useful Epic Arcs are for grinding good standings with all factions, but that's not the reason I do them, at least not with this char, so the standings reward is of little significance to me (none actually for this char).

And I do find the ISK value of the final reward interesting. It's not like you get that as the only reward for doing the entire arc, rather it's a nice bonus you get in addition to the rewards you get for doing each of the missions.

So please keep in mind some pilots may actually do Epic Arcs for the same reason I do when making assumptions about which reward is more interesting or valuable... P
guigui lechat
the no fock given
#14 - 2017-03-28 04:00:01 UTC
You misunderstood me. I was talking about the balancing of the rewards, stating that the unbalance lies in the standing BECAUSE it is not a very interesting set of mission ISK-wise.

Of course this does not mean you have to enjoy epic arc for the standing, the fun is where you find it :)
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2017-03-28 04:42:29 UTC
Knowledgeminer wrote:
Not everybody does Epic Arcs for the same reason.

I have 9.90+ standings with everything Gallente and Minmatar, -10.0 with the Amarr and Caldari factions. I like missions against "enemy" empire factions more than missions against pirate factions, I like encounter storylines more than regular missions, and I don't let that negative standings crap get in the way of me having fun while making decent ISK doing missions.

Epic Arcs for me are just another type of missions that add variety and a much more interesting underlying story. I'm well aware how useful Epic Arcs are for grinding good standings with all factions, but that's not the reason I do them, at least not with this char, so the standings reward is of little significance to me (none actually for this char).

And I do find the ISK value of the final reward interesting. It's not like you get that as the only reward for doing the entire arc, rather it's a nice bonus you get in addition to the rewards you get for doing each of the missions.

So please keep in mind some pilots may actually do Epic Arcs for the same reason I do when making assumptions about which reward is more interesting or valuable... P

Yeah I agree, not everybody does Epic Arcs for the same reason.

Granted some players do it for the special item reward while others do it for immersion into the story plot. However most players do it for the Faction standing increase.

In my opinion the Minmatar Epic Arc is unbalanced because one of it's ending pathways doesn't give the same amount of Faction standing increase when compared to all of the other level 4 Epic Arcs.

That's it, not trying to change the story plot, not trying to change the monetary value, just want to see the amount of Faction standing increase be equal like the other level 4 Epic Arcs.


DMC
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#16 - 2017-04-01 10:00:53 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Agondray wrote:
I find the caldari one a lot more annoying with the whole mandatory go to low or null.


but they're non-combat or light-combat ones that can be done in a frigate, unlike the Minmatar ones requiring you to fly a lv4 mission ship forth and back.


yes but that doesn't save you from a smartbomb camper on the other side.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Alaric Faelen
El Ultimo Hombre
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2017-04-29 14:21:20 UTC
I just finished the Amarr epic arc last night for the first time, having done the Minmatar epic arc a few months ago. Wow, what a difference.

I genuinely enjoyed the Amarr arc as a bit of content to explore. The missions were on par with an L4 security mission, the storyline cohesive and interesting. I even managed to finish the final mission without the huge grind of fully clearing the room. Happy with the rewards for the effort. I'll do it again in 90 days just to try to other branch.

The Minmatar epic arc is terrible by comparison. A slow grind with way too much travel (and I ran it in a Tengu, making the travel much better than had I brought a BS), a storyline I quit caring about halfway thru, and abysmal rewards for it all. It took me so long to even try another epic arc because the Minnie one was my first and I didn't enjoy it at all.

CCP had the right idea with epic arcs. Just wish they kept expanding on that content, add randomness to the spawns, and reduce the mobs in favor of stronger AI for fewer enemies. (basically what I wish they would do for all combat PvE)
But we know that things like missions (especially epics and COSMOS) are nowhere on CCP's radar right now.

Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#18 - 2017-04-29 15:55:59 UTC
Alaric Faelen wrote:
I just finished the Amarr epic arc last night for the first time, having done the Minmatar epic arc a few months ago. Wow, what a difference.

I genuinely enjoyed the Amarr arc as a bit of content to explore. The missions were on par with an L4 security mission, the storyline cohesive and interesting. I even managed to finish the final mission without the huge grind of fully clearing the room. Happy with the rewards for the effort. I'll do it again in 90 days just to try to other branch.

The Minmatar epic arc is terrible by comparison. A slow grind with way too much travel (and I ran it in a Tengu, making the travel much better than had I brought a BS), a storyline I quit caring about halfway thru, and abysmal rewards for it all. It took me so long to even try another epic arc because the Minnie one was my first and I didn't enjoy it at all.

CCP had the right idea with epic arcs. Just wish they kept expanding on that content, add randomness to the spawns, and reduce the mobs in favor of stronger AI for fewer enemies. (basically what I wish they would do for all combat PvE)
But we know that things like missions (especially epics and COSMOS) are nowhere on CCP's radar right now.



theres already a bit on the features asking for fewer/stronger npcs, people who fail to see that they want the npcs to be 5x or what

ever stronger also fail to see if that rat has a 200 dps tank it will now have a 1000 dps tank aswell as greater damage, you wont be

able to beat it with out logi as youd have to gimp your tank to surpass its tank which also means it will be a longer battle against just

1, which will probably mean your tank wont hold, esp not against multiples.




Also the reason for lots of weaker ships other than being able to have lower tank and dps to even beat one solo, is to widen the

gap that capsuleers are suppose to have against a normal crewed ship, something that's highlighted even in the books.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Alaric Faelen
El Ultimo Hombre
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2017-04-29 16:42:24 UTC
I understand the lore and how capsuleers are supposed to take out waves of normal ships. It is just a lazy way of explaining the same boring mob based dungeon crawl that pervades MMORPGs. The progression from that to more advanced AI that relies less on mobs and offers more of a challenge is what players want. CCP deserves credit for trying to make AI more like player behavior. It's a work in progress but it's paying dividends.

I don't mind the mission difficulty for epic arcs being higher, it's an epic arc after all. I think it's another opportunity to promote fleeting up for PvE content. Especially if the AI mimics player behavior, so that it's much more like a PvP simulator than just regular PvE grinding. CCP has a bunch of ways to promote fleet activity in Eve- it's just a matter of making it happen. Not using the mission system as a sort of fleet/PvP training program is a wasted opportunity.

Knowledgeminer
Oriens Vis
#20 - 2017-05-23 14:10:58 UTC
Well, this is even worse than I thought at first.

I've started to do missions for Thukker Tribe and they give missions that are specifically against Ammatar. Doing them would cause me to stop being able to do the Minmatar Epic Arc pretty fast. And I just declined one of those missions only to have it offered again.

This is ridiculous and incredibly bad design. Please fix it.
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