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Changes to combat invulnerable cloaky campers

First post
Author
Krieg Austern
#1 - 2017-03-14 23:45:30 UTC
So...

Apart from people who actively use it to drop on others (and will obviously disagree with everything here), the "cloaky camper" is not a good game mechanic. Using it in an actual combat/stalking situation, great, that's what it was designed for. But having someone fly into a system, cloak up and sit there for a day, two, three and effectively cripple the residents just based on being in local - with complete immunity - is something that needs to be addressed.

Off grid boosts were removed as too many people complained of miners getting huge boosts from industrial ships sitting in the safety of a POS shield for a whole day, and on the flip side, gank groups getting combat boosts from someone sitting in a safe point across the system.

But there's been nothing to address someone being able to sit in a system for days at a time, even if just to grief the locals with their presence. Hell, you can login after DT, cloak up, and just leave the game running and go out. Completely afk, and totally invulnerable, and having a big effect on the game. Not to mention sitting in a system for hours in a 20m covops ship, just waiting to drop supers right on your head.

There is no other system in the game that makes you truly invulnerable, apart from this.

I think the Cloaking skill needs to be revised an expanded. This is something I came up with over the past few days, and I think it could work well. Now before anyone jumps all over this and yells that cloaking does not need a huge nerf, this is (I think) a balanced idea, that still allows for cloaking to function, but remove the option of being totally afk while cloaked up, and also introducing a mechanic where those being camped actually have a way of doing something about it.

All cloaking devices need to be on a cycle, being how long they operate, and then a cooldown timer where they cannot be switched on - and therefore the ship decloaks. The cooldown timer can be reduced by introducing a Cloaking Specialization skill, with each level, the cooldown timer is lowered.

Small example of how this could be implemented:

Prototype Cloaking Device I
Cycle time: 5 minutes
Cooldown: 5 minutes

Improved Cloaking Device II
Cycle time: 10 minutes
Cooldown: 5 minutes

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Cycle time: 10 minutes
Cooldown: 3 minutes

Certain ships, such as those that are Covert Ops capable could get a role bonus, allowing them to increase the cycle time and/or reduce the cooldown timer.

The Cloaking Specialization skill would allow a 5% decrease in the Cooldown timer per skill level. This skill should have a reasonable X level, such as 6X. Therefore a pilot who is flying with Covops cloak, at level 5 Cloaking Specialization, would have a cooldown timer of 99 seconds. Any ship role bonus would also apply to this.

Let's assume a skilled pilot could get their cooldown down to 90 seconds.

Using a system like this allows the cloak pilot to be able to warp to several safe points while in their cooldown timer, but also for those who are affected by the cloaky camper to have a chance to remove them from the system. 90 seconds is not a long time for someone to try and "stay alive", and even for those who want to remove the cloaky camper, it still requires an effort on their part to scan them down, especially as they don't know when the timer is up.

Anyone who is not afk will still be able to avoid being killed. Someone who is afk, well, they shouldn't be afk and if they lose their ship, so be it. The rest of us are in this exact scenario, so why shouldn't they be. No ship class should be totally immune, cloaked or otherwise.

I'm sure the idea needs some finesse, but I think it could not only remove the cloaky camper annoyance (and as mentioned, apart from those who engage in this activity, I don't think there is anyone with a positive word to say about this "feature"), and introduce a new style of hunting cloaked ships.

Just my 2 ISK worth.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2017-03-14 23:56:54 UTC
Please show me one killmail, just one, where a player who is AFK and cloaked has ever killed anything.

Now tell me why psychological warfare is a bad thing.

Now tell me why you're ratting with enemy supers in jump range of you.

Now explain why you made the one millionth thread on this exact same topic, and why, exactly, you feel that cloaks need to be nerfed into the ground in a futile attempt to counter nothing but your own fear.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3 - 2017-03-15 00:01:53 UTC
There is a stickied thread for this. Now hang your head in shame.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4 - 2017-03-15 00:17:48 UTC
Yeah, travelling through low-sec will be so much fun now...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Ageanal Olerie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2017-03-15 00:17:58 UTC

You can ignore Danika. CCP does.

Might want to change the timings somewhat but otherwise, great idea!

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#6 - 2017-03-15 00:49:02 UTC
Paikis wrote:
This thread comes up on almost a weekly basis. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a nerf cloaking thread in the first 2 pages on this forum section. Almost every single one of them goes like this:

1. OP posts a post with a new (lol) idea that always boils down to some variation of the following:
- "There's a big meanie who is sitting in my system and not doing anything, but I don't know where he is and I can't ever just go next door. I can't find said meanie and even though I know that he's probably at work and poses no threat at all, I wont do anything in my system that I absolutely can't leave ever because he might not be at work and I might lose a ship. CCP please stop the meanie from being able to do nothing to me because he's probably at work"

2. Thread gets trolled because its been done literally to death. This horse has been beaten so hard and so often that it's little more than a memory of a memory of a red smear on the grass, and yet it STILL WONT DIE! In fact it's been done so many times that this particular horse is now undead; even if it does die, it will still be remembered and parodied.

3. Someone comes along and suggests that AFK cloakers can't hurt you, because they are, by their very definition, AFK. No one ever lost a ship to someone who ISN'T PLAYING THE GAME.

4. Someone else comes along and points out that while the cloaker might be AFK, he might not be, and so we have Schrodinger's Hot Dropper. The cyno pilot who might be AFK... but he might not be as well, and you will only know for sure when he decloaks, points and lights his candle. (Yes, I know this isn't how the cat works)

5. Someone else comes along and suggests that you use bait and setup a TARP. Or have a defence fleet on standby. Heaven forbid you have to actually fight to defend your space.

6. A further person comes along and suggests that the problem isn't cloaking AFK in your system that you can't possibly leave ever, but that you KNOW that the person is AFK in your system... and perhaps local should be removed because free 100% accurate intel is probably not the best thing in the game and if you didn't know that the big meanie was in your system, you wouldn't be worried about leaving the undock/POS.

7. Then another person pokes their head in and complains that local is 100% NEEDED because D-Scan and probing are such bad mechanics, and IF YOU TAKE MY LOCAL AWAY IM QUITTING FOREVER AND NO YOU CAN'T HAVE MY STUFF!

8. Someone asks if they can have 7's stuff.

We end up with another thread which goes on for pages and pages between complains about local, defence fleets, inability to just go next door, people who aren't playing the game but are playing the meta, lots of bickering and in the end nothing gets solved. CCP wont remove cloaking because it would mess with waaay too many things and it creates content (which is a good thing) by removing content (which is a bad thing) but they can't really think of any way to do it without a complete overhaul of the local and scanning systems.

Now that I've had this entire thread's conversation, can we just let it die? Please?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2017-03-15 00:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Ageanal Olerie wrote:

You can ignore Danika. CCP does.

Might want to change the timings somewhat but otherwise, great idea!



Yes ignore challenges to your idea and upvote sycophants. That'll help you.

And you wonder why ccp ignore these posts and put them all in one place to collectively ignored by everyone, save for one poor isd whom i assume drew the short straw.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#8 - 2017-03-15 02:35:05 UTC
^ That quote deserves a good laugh.

On a more on topic note, yes this DOES happen, and no it's not a bad thing. However, you shouldn't be able to sit cloaked somewhere indefinitely - that is true as well. Why not make cloaks require some form of ammo, or cripple one's shields and armor? That way, yes, you could theoretically stay hidden 'forever' but it's a lot less likely as well as if you DO get found you get squished like the sneaky little frail ship that you are.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9 - 2017-03-15 02:53:32 UTC
Quote:
But having someone fly into a system, cloak up and sit there for a day, two, three and effectively cripple the residents just based on being in local - with complete immunity - is something that needs to be addressed.


If your alliance is crippled by having a single person in local 23/7 then your alliance sucks, and deserves to be crippled until you all ragequit and go back to highsec. 0.0 is not supposed to be risk-free effort-free PvE farming, either organize a defense fleet that can insta-kill any cloaker that tries to do anything but sit cloaked and idle, or STFU.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#10 - 2017-03-15 02:55:27 UTC
Ajem Hinken wrote:
On a more on topic note, yes this DOES happen, and no it's not a bad thing. However, you shouldn't be able to sit cloaked somewhere indefinitely - that is true as well. Why not make cloaks require some form of ammo, or cripple one's shields and armor? That way, yes, you could theoretically stay hidden 'forever' but it's a lot less likely as well as if you DO get found you get squished like the sneaky little frail ship that you are.


Requiring ammo just means tedious micromanagement to keep your cloak fuel stocked. It doesn't contribute any meaningful gameplay depth. And cloaks already cripple your shields and armor. The ships that are capable of fitting a covops cloak (ships with other cloaks are a negligible threat) have much weaker defense and firepower than conventional non-cloaking ships in their class. A covert ops ship will lose a straight-up fight to a non-cloaking equivalent almost every time. That's the price you pay for the ability to sneak.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#11 - 2017-03-15 06:23:41 UTC
Krieg Austern wrote:
Using it in an actual combat/stalking situation, great, that's what it was designed for.


Cynos are broken. Local is broken. The synergy between both questionable mechanics creates an oddly balanced situation.

Local pretty much means even cloaked ships cannot actually stalk anything. If local wasn't instant, free, and reliable intel which all but rules out real hunting, then I could see making cloaks actually take fuel or eventually burn out, or any of the other hundreds of permutations of the same idea. As it is, saturating intel and local is the only counter-play to the safety net that local creates.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Ageanal Olerie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-03-15 15:45:27 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Quote:
But having someone fly into a system, cloak up and sit there for a day, two, three and effectively cripple the residents just based on being in local - with complete immunity - is something that needs to be addressed.


If your alliance is crippled by having a single person in local 23/7 then your alliance sucks, and deserves to be crippled until you all ragequit and go back to highsec. 0.0 is not supposed to be risk-free effort-free PvE farming, either organize a defense fleet that can insta-kill any cloaker that tries to do anything but sit cloaked and idle, or STFU.


LOL. Either you don't inhabit NULL or you're a beneficiary of this flawed mechanic attempting to deflect from any reasonable suggestions for fixing it. A 'single person' cloaked in system is not merely a single person. It's potentially dozens or more players 'cloaked'. 24/7 mostly AFK (but who knows when). Locking your system down.

Nobody is going to have a defense fleet waiting around twiddling their thumbs all day long in the event that a days on end lurking cloaky hotdrops a couple dozen warships on those mining, missioning, exploring etc... Talk about destroying any financial benefit of going out to 0.0. And even then the cowards wait until you're being assaulted by rats.


Ageanal Olerie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2017-03-15 15:57:56 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Krieg Austern wrote:
Using it in an actual combat/stalking situation, great, that's what it was designed for.


Cynos are broken. Local is broken. The synergy between both questionable mechanics creates an oddly balanced situation.

Local pretty much means even cloaked ships cannot actually stalk anything. If local wasn't instant, free, and reliable intel which all but rules out real hunting, then I could see making cloaks actually take fuel or eventually burn out, or any of the other hundreds of permutations of the same idea. As it is, saturating intel and local is the only counter-play to the safety net that local creates.



If you don't like Local go to W-Space. And I don't know what you're talking about 'a cloaked ship can't stalk anything' . Of course they can. (That is until their cloak overheats and shuts down for a few minutes, see OP. At which point the active player bounces around the system until he can recloak ).





Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#14 - 2017-03-15 16:08:09 UTC
Show us on the doll where the afk cloaker touched you and please refrain from ever making "suggestions" about a playstyle you obviously haven't the slightest clue about ever again.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#15 - 2017-03-15 16:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
Ageanal Olerie wrote:
If you don't like Local go to W-Space. And I don't know what you're talking about 'a cloaked ship can't stalk anything' . Of course they can. (That is until their cloak overheats and shuts down for a few minutes, see OP. At which point the active player bounces around the system until he can recloak ).


No, at which point you appear on d-scan, your prey knows you're active and a threat, and everyone is suddenly docked in a station.

Ageanal Olerie wrote:
A 'single person' cloaked in system is not merely a single person. It's potentially dozens or more players 'cloaked'. 24/7 mostly AFK (but who knows when). Locking your system down.


Grow some balls and stop being so terrified of a giant fleet on the other end of a cyno. So what if there's a tiny chance that they have a huge fleet, if that happens maybe you lose a ship or two. Most of the time there isn't dozens of players, there's just one person in a cloaked ship (who is probably AFK anyway), and maybe a black ops or two waiting nearby.

Quote:
Nobody is going to have a defense fleet waiting around twiddling their thumbs all day long in the event that a days on end lurking cloaky hotdrops a couple dozen warships on those mining, missioning, exploring etc... Talk about destroying any financial benefit of going out to 0.0. And even then the cowards wait until you're being assaulted by rats.


IOW: "I don't want to have to organize PvE operations with a fleet, I want to be able to solo PvE at any time in complete safety like it's highsec, because otherwise I don't make enough ISK." Have you ever considered that 0.0 is not for you, and that farming highsec level 4 missions until you commit suicide out of sheer boredom would be more enjoyable? 0.0 is supposed to be about cooperative empire-building, not just the next highsec to level up your Raven in.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#16 - 2017-03-15 16:38:03 UTC
nb4 lock

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#17 - 2017-03-15 17:29:31 UTC
Ageanal Olerie wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Krieg Austern wrote:
Using it in an actual combat/stalking situation, great, that's what it was designed for.


Cynos are broken. Local is broken. The synergy between both questionable mechanics creates an oddly balanced situation.

Local pretty much means even cloaked ships cannot actually stalk anything. If local wasn't instant, free, and reliable intel which all but rules out real hunting, then I could see making cloaks actually take fuel or eventually burn out, or any of the other hundreds of permutations of the same idea. As it is, saturating intel and local is the only counter-play to the safety net that local creates.



If you don't like Local go to W-Space. And I don't know what you're talking about 'a cloaked ship can't stalk anything' . Of course they can. (That is until their cloak overheats and shuts down for a few minutes, see OP. At which point the active player bounces around the system until he can recloak ).


How do you get the jump on anything when they can see you 10 system out, and can get off grid within 3s? They have to be hilariously lazy to get caught. The hunter being good has almost nothing to do with catching things 99.99% of the time. I agree it would make for more engaging play for cloaks in k-space to last no more than 5 minutes, in exchange for the cloak actually being a cloak - i.e. actually granting stealth by removing cloaked players from local.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2017-03-15 18:36:19 UTC
Ageanal Olerie wrote:


LOL. Either you don't inhabit NULL or you're a beneficiary of this flawed mechanic attempting to deflect from any reasonable suggestions for fixing it. A 'single person' cloaked in system is not merely a single person. It's potentially dozens or more players 'cloaked'. 24/7 mostly AFK (but who knows when). Locking your system down.

Nobody is going to have a defense fleet waiting around twiddling their thumbs all day long in the event that a days on end lurking cloaky hotdrops a couple dozen warships on those mining, missioning, exploring etc... Talk about destroying any financial benefit of going out to 0.0. And even then the cowards wait until you're being assaulted by rats.





Why is it too much to expect for a null group to maintain a standing fleet? Put all your ratters and miners in one fleet, have them fit cynos and have some alts in combat ships ready to counter drop anyone who goes hunting in your system? Or to have scouts out in whatever nearby areas of space hostile gangs can stage in, keeping an eye on things?

Seriously. Why should the game mechanics change because your group cannot be bothered to defend themselves?

'Nobody' in this case means every actually organised nullsec group, right?
Krieg Austern
#19 - 2017-03-15 18:56:11 UTC
My idea had more to do with eliminating the afk cloaky campers, rather than the whole play style.

Where is the gameplay in someone deliberately griefing systems by being in local and not doing anything? Sure, psychological warfare is a big part, but how do you know it's psychological warfare vs "ha ha, cloaked up, now I'm going to go do something else for a whole day because it will annoy everyone". Even if it's an hour... if you are not at the game, why shouldn't there be a way to kill you? And if you are there, jump to your next safe and recloak - why is this so difficult?

Every time a miner or ratter posts a thread about being blown up out of nowhere, people are quick to point out "well you shouldn't be afk playing". This door should swing both ways.
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#20 - 2017-03-15 18:57:28 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Ajem Hinken wrote:
On a more on topic note, yes this DOES happen, and no it's not a bad thing. However, you shouldn't be able to sit cloaked somewhere indefinitely - that is true as well. Why not make cloaks require some form of ammo, or cripple one's shields and armor? That way, yes, you could theoretically stay hidden 'forever' but it's a lot less likely as well as if you DO get found you get squished like the sneaky little frail ship that you are.


Requiring ammo just means tedious micromanagement to keep your cloak fuel stocked. It doesn't contribute any meaningful gameplay depth. And cloaks already cripple your shields and armor. The ships that are capable of fitting a covops cloak (ships with other cloaks are a negligible threat) have much weaker defense and firepower than conventional non-cloaking ships in their class. A covert ops ship will lose a straight-up fight to a non-cloaking equivalent almost every time. That's the price you pay for the ability to sneak.

However, they can just cloak indefinitely. There should be some way to stop this AFK cloaking business - like cloaks timing out if you don't move, and leaving a 15m no-warp timer behind in case of a time out. And yes, flying in a straight line would count towards the AFK timer. You'd have to actually move something in your cargo hold, talk in chat, follow someone, or be approaching something at all times while cloaked. Orbiting is omitted from the list as you can AFK while orbiting easily.

Either that, or AFK ppl shouldn't show on local to prevent the mind games going on 24/7

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

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