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A possible method for researching the Kyonoke agent

Author
Doctor Valate
Delve Medical Services
#1 - 2017-03-06 20:04:59 UTC
The outbreak of the Kyonoke plague should fill everyone with concern, and while I am no expert on the Kyonoke infectious agent, I have been reviewing our medical databases to see if there is anything that may be helpful to others.

Now, the known issues with the Kyonoke agent, are that it can be breathed in by a subject, and it infects the brain, particularly the medulla oblongata which controls the automatic functions of the body - heartbeat, breathing, and so on.
It is also extremely difficult to contain, and is able to penetrate protective suits.

Which of course makes it very difficult to study, except by remote operation of drones. And, as everyone knows, drones have many limitations.
Ideally, you want a human presence, but, exposing a human to the contaminated zone is a suicide mission.


Quite the conundrum.

However, reviewing our databases, turns up something that might provide a solution.

The Takmahl Biodroid Controller. (TBC)

Use of these devices, to control biological organisms, up to and including humans, is fairly well described within the fragments of Takmahl scientific literature, and our own research into the topic has filled in a few blanks - the Empress Synthia 1 is perhaps the pinnacle of biodroid science, but that's not important right now.

What is important, is that it might be possible, to use the TBC, or devices based on it, to allow a medical researcher to send in a humanoid form into the contaminated zone, to conduct the research that remote-operated drones cannot. Control the humanoid form with a VR interface, with a comm-link to a nearby control centre, outside the contaminated zone.

The TBC humanoid form, if also equipped with cyberprosthetic heart and lungs, might be invulnerable to the effects of the Kyonoke agent, or at least, able to operate long enough to obtain useful research data.
The TBC humanoid forms can also be regarded as completely expendable, unlike normal human medical research teams.

And, once enough samples have been obtained, then nanomachines with suitable enzyme keys to break down the Kyonoke proteins, could be deployed into the contaminated zone to begin clear-up efforts.


Sadly, I do not know what might be done to alleviate the suffering of any infected individuals, but the contaminated zones might be able to be sterilised, and allow the dead to be buried according to their culture, which might provide some closure to the relatives.


Obviously, I do not request access to any of the quarantine zones to test the TBC forms, I simply suggest the possibility that a tool exists that might help, and if the relevant authorities are interested, then my corporation can provide all available information on the TBC to them.

Free of charge.

Doctor Valerie Valate. Not to be confused with the other Valerie Valate.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#2 - 2017-03-06 21:33:40 UTC
Doctor Valate wrote:
it infects the brain, particularly the medulla oblongata which controls the automatic functions of the body - heartbeat, breathing, and so on.

just replacing a couple of organs won't help. From my understanding, it effects the brain in its entirety. Stopping the heart and lungs is just what kills you. Neural pathways all over the brain would be effected rendering one a vegetable as soon as the virus manifested, leaving you right back to square one on your efforts.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Doctor Valate
Delve Medical Services
#3 - 2017-03-06 21:52:26 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Doctor Valate wrote:
it infects the brain, particularly the medulla oblongata which controls the automatic functions of the body - heartbeat, breathing, and so on.

just replacing a couple of organs won't help. From my understanding, it effects the brain in its entirety. Stopping the heart and lungs is just what kills you. Neural pathways all over the brain would be effected rendering one a vegetable as soon as the virus manifested, leaving you right back to square one on your efforts.


That's where the TBC comes in.

There are two modes of the Kyonoke agent, it seems. The quick-acting one goes straight for the medulla oblongata, causing death within minutes. The cyberorgans might prevent that, allowing the humanoid form to function longer than just a few minutes in the contaminated zone.
The slow-acting one appears to infect the whole brain, over several months. That should not be a problem for a TBC cyborg.

Doctor Valerie Valate. Not to be confused with the other Valerie Valate.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#4 - 2017-03-06 22:34:38 UTC
Doctor Valate wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Doctor Valate wrote:
it infects the brain, particularly the medulla oblongata which controls the automatic functions of the body - heartbeat, breathing, and so on.

just replacing a couple of organs won't help. From my understanding, it effects the brain in its entirety. Stopping the heart and lungs is just what kills you. Neural pathways all over the brain would be effected rendering one a vegetable as soon as the virus manifested, leaving you right back to square one on your efforts.


That's where the TBC comes in.

There are two modes of the Kyonoke agent, it seems. The quick-acting one goes straight for the medulla oblongata, causing death within minutes. The cyberorgans might prevent that, allowing the humanoid form to function longer than just a few minutes in the contaminated zone.
The slow-acting one appears to infect the whole brain, over several months. That should not be a problem for a TBC cyborg.

Wouldn't it be more effective, then, to just replace the medulla oblongata with hardware that can't be infected instead of replacing multiple organs?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2017-03-07 00:41:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
If Sansha Kuvakei's been researching the Kyonoke speck, I kind of suspect this is pretty much how. Only, you know, without the "humanoid" bit. A hive mind would be really helpful in researching something something that'll kill the organism conducting the research: there need be no meaningful loss of data with each researcher's death.

You just need a large enough pool of bodies, which Nation has. Even with a life expectancy among active researchers measured in hours, the crew complement of a single battleship could keep a small lab running for a month. Conduct any work not requiring direct interfacing with samples elsewhere, and ...

... yeah.

Probably workable. Just, not for us.

(Dr. Valate, wouldn't a fully-mechanized hot lab be at least as efficient as what you're describing?)
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2017-03-07 01:20:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
You do realise surveyor, sample collector and analysis drones, and fully mechanised mobile lab rover exist, right? Just a little tweak here and there, some module modification or fabrication and you are good to go experimenting in highly contaminated environments without ever exposing a human being to said hazardous agents. Once you are done, just scrub the equipment with radiation and nanite scrubbers. If really paranoid, just dispose the whole thing and send in another team of said drones.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#7 - 2017-03-07 02:51:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Elmund Egivand wrote:
You do realise surveyor, sample collector and analysis drones, and fully mechanised mobile lab rover exist, right? Just a little tweak here and there, some module modification or fabrication and you are good to go experimenting in highly contaminated environments without ever exposing a human being to said hazardous agents. Once you are done, just scrub the equipment with radiation and nanite scrubbers. If really paranoid, just dispose the whole thing and send in another team of said drones.


This is probably how the Caldari State was researching stuff at the Pit. The "no retrieval" version.

'Cause, Kyonoke. Hard to be paranoid enough.
Myxx
The Scope
#8 - 2017-03-07 03:17:43 UTC
Rig a traditional drone up for lab work, and when its done go ahead and fly it into the local star.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2017-03-07 06:15:43 UTC
Myxx wrote:
Rig a traditional drone up for lab work, and when its done go ahead and fly it into the local star.


Doesn't work. An infected drone's a possible retrieval point for people wanting to acquire the contagion, which is, demonstrably, something a few people would have reason to want to get their hands on.

EoM. Sansha's Nation (which apparently already has it). Basically anybody who'd be okay sealing borders and watching population numbers plummet.

It's a big universe. There are definitely people who'd be happier if it were smaller. An infected piece of hardware can't be exposed to potential theft, even briefly.
Doctor Valate
Delve Medical Services
#10 - 2017-03-07 06:38:50 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:

Wouldn't it be more effective, then, to just replace the medulla oblongata with hardware that can't be infected instead of replacing multiple organs?


Replacing it is considerably more expensive than the far, far cheaper cyberprosthetics used for hearts and lungs.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Dr. Valate, wouldn't a fully-mechanized hot lab be at least as efficient as what you're describing?


Mechanised lab equipment can miss things. A human can spot anomalies that drones do not pick up.

Fully mechanised lab equipment is also expensive.

The point of the TBC cyborgs, is that they are cheap and expendable, while providing a human presence.

And another factor.

TBC cyborgs can also be used as test subjects, for testing treatments for infected people.

Doctor Valerie Valate. Not to be confused with the other Valerie Valate.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2017-03-07 07:05:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Doctor Valate wrote:


Aria Jenneth wrote:
Dr. Valate, wouldn't a fully-mechanized hot lab be at least as efficient as what you're describing?


Mechanised lab equipment can miss things. A human can spot anomalies that drones do not pick up.

Fully mechanised lab equipment is also expensive.

The point of the TBC cyborgs, is that they are cheap and expendable, while providing a human presence.

And another factor.

TBC cyborgs can also be used as test subjects, for testing treatments for infected people.


In the long term, the cyborgs will become more expensive.

The advantages of a fully mechanised lab equipment (this includes drones) is that they can be reused and their lifetime in highly contaminated areas are measured in decades. With the construction of support infrastructure (doable with drones), maintenance of these types of equipment can be done automatically or remotely, extending their lifetime by at least three or more times beyond their EoL. By then, you would have made up for the cost and etc many times over.

Drones can be controlled remotely by operators off-site. It is, in fact, the standard procedure to have drone activity monitored and to have techs on standby to override automatic controls and operate the drones remotely. Also, explorator and surveyor drones come packaged with advanced sensor suites that will allow them to see things in multiple frequencies in the EM spectrum and to 'hear' in a much wider range of frequencies beyond what human ears can normally detect. If there are anomalies, the human operator will notice when they are 'seeing' through the sensors of the drones. If they can't 'see' the anomaly, the sensor data logs will reveal it.

These are, after all, very advanced lab equipment designed for experiments in highly hazardous areas without exposing the human operators to said hazards.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#12 - 2017-03-07 11:28:57 UTC
Doctor Valate wrote:

And, once enough samples have been obtained, then nanomachines with suitable enzyme keys to break down the Kyonoke proteins, could be deployed into the contaminated zone to begin clear-up efforts.

Sadly, I do not know what might be done to alleviate the suffering of any infected individuals, but the contaminated zones might be able to be sterilised, and allow the dead to be buried according to their culture, which might provide some closure to the relatives.

You don't really need a nanomachine for that, just another enzyme or simpler chemical agent. Besides, there's a problem of a concentration gradient of said nanomachine and cleaning agent to Kyonoke. To effectively remove a substance of low concentration you'll have to flood the area with the cleaning agent, and flooding with nanomachines could reach astronomical costs.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2017-03-07 11:51:57 UTC
I'm not particularly well up on cloning tech but would it be possible for volunteer capsuleer scientists to enter the infected areas to perform on site research and when they succumb have their clone recovered to the last good state brain scan? Drones can only do so much (an area I do have expertise in) and there is no substitute for working in-situ in cases like this.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#14 - 2017-03-07 13:22:13 UTC
Would you suicide yourself for the name of science?.. Why do you ask others to do that?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Jack Jomar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-03-07 13:29:07 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'm not particularly well up on cloning tech but would it be possible for volunteer capsuleer scientists to enter the infected areas to perform on site research and when they succumb have their clone recovered to the last good state brain scan? Drones can only do so much (an area I do have expertise in) and there is no substitute for working in-situ in cases like this.


I was wondering something along these lines, but in regards the developments in clone troopers and the like.
The technology has advanced well enough that instability fears appear to have passed for the time being.
Could not this technology be put to less warlike use in this regard?
This would allow any and all governments to work together (after negotiations, or via the agreements of suitable third parties, such as CONCORD or SoCT) to resolve this issue, with each government taking care of those within their specific territories.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2017-03-07 13:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Jack Jomar wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'm not particularly well up on cloning tech but would it be possible for volunteer capsuleer scientists to enter the infected areas to perform on-site research and when they succumb have their clone recovered to the last good state brain scan? Drones can only do so much (an area I do have expertise in) and there is no substitute for working in-situ in cases like this.


I was wondering something along these lines, but in regards the developments in clone troopers and the like.
The technology has advanced well enough that instability fears appear to have passed for the time being.
Could not this technology be put to less warlike use in this regard?
This would allow any and all governments to work together (after negotiations, or via the agreements of suitable third parties, such as CONCORD or SoCT) to resolve this issue, with each government taking care of those within their specific territories.


You must understand that the brain state data uploaded by the implants are based on the physical state of the clone's brain at the moment of clone death. If the clone's brain is damaged due to the action of a prion, like Kyonoke, for example, the brain state that is uploaded will be corrupted and the fresh clone will emerge with spongiform brain structure sculpted into their new brain state, resulting in impaired neurological function.

For cases like these, it is highly advisable for any Empyrean who volunteers for the job must have a soft clone copy backed up prior to starting the operation, which means that any memory and personality data since the backup will be lost at the moment of clone death.

It is a solution but it isn't a good one as compared to having the research done remotely.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Jack Jomar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2017-03-07 14:03:10 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Jack Jomar wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'm not particularly well up on cloning tech but would it be possible for volunteer capsuleer scientists to enter the infected areas to perform on-site research and when they succumb have their clone recovered to the last good state brain scan? Drones can only do so much (an area I do have expertise in) and there is no substitute for working in-situ in cases like this.


I was wondering something along these lines, but in regards the developments in clone troopers and the like.
The technology has advanced well enough that instability fears appear to have passed for the time being.
Could not this technology be put to less warlike use in this regard?
This would allow any and all governments to work together (after negotiations, or via the agreements of suitable third parties, such as CONCORD or SoCT) to resolve this issue, with each government taking care of those within their specific territories.


You must understand that the brain state data uploaded by the implants are based on the physical state of the clone's brain at the moment of clone death. If the clone's brain is damaged due to the action of a prion, like Kyonoke, for example, the brain state that is uploaded will be corrupted and the fresh clone will emerge with spongiform brain structure sculpted into their new brain state, resulting in impaired neurological function.

For cases like these, it is highly advisable for any Empyrean who volunteers for the job must have a soft clone copy backed up prior to starting the operation, which means that any memory and personality data since the backup will be lost at the moment of clone death.

It is a solution but it isn't a good one as compared to having the research done remotely.


Because the researcher would be constantly forgetting what they had done, and would have to review everything they had worked through prior to dying, essentially doing the same work twice, doubling the time it would take (if not more). Fair enough.
That aside, though, it might still be worth considering as an addition to remote research, rather than instead of it, if only to provide additional sources of data for analysis. Especially if the empyrean in question was transmitting everything back to a central and secure source location, whether it be their own research, or their biometric data.
Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2017-03-07 14:05:12 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'm not particularly well up on cloning tech but would it be possible for volunteer capsuleer scientists to enter the infected areas to perform on site research and when they succumb have their clone recovered to the last good state brain scan? Drones can only do so much (an area I do have expertise in) and there is no substitute for working in-situ in cases like this.


The problem with this idea is: they open the airlock to let you or some other clone in, but nobody can control what happens next. What stops anyone else from going in? What stops the millions of people trapped inside from trying to escape a desperate situation? What stops the Kyonoke speck from entering the airlock and lying dormant until a future cycling of said airlock? A lot of people think me cruel for my opinions on this subject, but an un-breached quarantine serves the most people best. What's happening is tragic and unfortunate, but this is not a problem that be solved by throwing money, bodies, or resources at it. The afflicted areas should be sealed of forever and/or destroyed.


Jack Jomar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2017-03-07 14:14:06 UTC
Karmilla Strife wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'm not particularly well up on cloning tech but would it be possible for volunteer capsuleer scientists to enter the infected areas to perform on site research and when they succumb have their clone recovered to the last good state brain scan? Drones can only do so much (an area I do have expertise in) and there is no substitute for working in-situ in cases like this.


The problem with this idea is: they open the airlock to let you or some other clone in, but nobody can control what happens next. What stops anyone else from going in? What stops the millions of people trapped inside from trying to escape a desperate situation? What stops the Kyonoke speck from entering the airlock and lying dormant until a future cycling of said airlock? A lot of people think me cruel for my opinions on this subject, but an un-breached quarantine serves the most people best. What's happening is tragic and unfortunate, but this is not a problem that be solved by throwing money, bodies, or resources at it. The afflicted areas should be sealed of forever and/or destroyed.




Do disposable (as such) boarding pods exist?
Could an empyrean or team of empyreans pilot one into dock on a one way trip?
Alternatively, could they be deployed via close range deployment of bodies in vac suits, with the bodies in question voluntarily damaging the suits beyond immediate repair after entry?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2017-03-07 14:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Jack Jomar wrote:
Karmilla Strife wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'm not particularly well up on cloning tech but would it be possible for volunteer capsuleer scientists to enter the infected areas to perform on site research and when they succumb have their clone recovered to the last good state brain scan? Drones can only do so much (an area I do have expertise in) and there is no substitute for working in-situ in cases like this.


The problem with this idea is: they open the airlock to let you or some other clone in, but nobody can control what happens next. What stops anyone else from going in? What stops the millions of people trapped inside from trying to escape a desperate situation? What stops the Kyonoke speck from entering the airlock and lying dormant until a future cycling of said airlock? A lot of people think me cruel for my opinions on this subject, but an un-breached quarantine serves the most people best. What's happening is tragic and unfortunate, but this is not a problem that be solved by throwing money, bodies, or resources at it. The afflicted areas should be sealed of forever and/or destroyed.




Do disposable (as such) boarding pods exist?
Could an empyrean or team of empyreans pilot one into dock on a one way trip?
Alternatively, could they be deployed via close range deployment of bodies in vac suits, with the bodies in question voluntarily damaging the suits beyond immediate repair after entry?


Inertial dampeners have been used by clone troopers for rapid insertion into warzones. The option of dropping bodies into quarantine areas is there.

The use of disposable vac suits isn't a good idea since the current generation of vac suits does not accommodate the additional bulk of hazmat suits. While conventional hazmat suits had proven to not protect against Kyonoke, they do, at least, slow them down. There is the idea of repurposing cruise missiles or torpedoes as method of boarding but that's more of a comedy idea thrown around for amusement.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

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