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New Prospective Miner!

Author
Dragneh Mileghere
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-02-28 16:58:11 UTC
Hello, I have just started playing EVE online (reccomened by a friend), and I am loving it. <<< Alpha Clone. I am still learning the terms, and I believe "HighSec" is .7 security and higher? But am I doing right as a newbie miner just using a venturer in .7 security sector, just filling up my ore hold, and mining the ores that are specific to the security of that sector? i.e.; not mining veldspar/scordite and instead mining ores such as omber. Feel free to call me a noob, for I defidently am one. I just want to learn from the "vets" if I am doing things right, or if I need a radical change. ( this is my first forum post, sorry if I posted in wrong area)
I am using the recommended fitting for from basing mining with a strong tank. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Venture/Fittings. Since I am newbie, I changed some of the more expensive modules for their cheaper variants, a different have not purchased any rigs yet.

Thanks for any feedback!
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2017-02-28 20:36:06 UTC
0.5 and higher.

Omber is one of the worst ores to mine in terms of ISK/hour. You should calculate what the highest value ore is, based on ISK/m3 (different ores have different volumes), and the best ore changes as the market changes.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2017-02-28 20:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I like to use:

https://ore.cerlestes.de/#site:ore

1. Click on the arrows on the ISK column to sort from highest to lowest.
2. Ignore the position of Mercoxit in the list (it cannot be mined at the same rate as the other ores).
3. Mine the highest ore on the list that you have access to.

Another useful site with many more tools is:

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ore/

My alt recently joined a small nulsec corporation, and I find it a lot safer to mine in nulsec, plus there is a never-ending supply of high-end ores available. I also really like the camaraderie of a nulsec alliance, and there are plenty of opportunities to do other things as well.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#4 - 2017-02-28 22:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Do Little
If you are mining in Gallente space I will recommend focusing on Plagioclase. It's a good source of Mexallon which is quite valuable. Find a Citadel where you can compress the ore and sell it in Jita. Haul it in your Venture - it's fast and can hold a lot more compressed Plagioclase than you can safely haul. A full load, 5000M3 is worth over 200 million at current Jita buy order pricing. That would make you an attractive target for a ganker.

If you are still in Verge Vendor, I used to mine in Amygnon as a new player. It was a quiet, dead-end system with decent ore. you'll want a couple of Hobgoblins to deal with rats.

Edit: Always orbit the asteroid you are harvesting - it makes you a more difficult target, both for rats and gankers!
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#5 - 2017-02-28 22:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Shiloh Templeton
Skill into a mining barge as quickly as possible as it's much better for ore/ice mining. I prefer the Procurer for safety reasons. The Venture is better for gas mining in Wormholes. I then suggest trying other aspects of the game before training for an exhumer.

Welcome to Eve.
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2017-03-01 08:12:23 UTC
Dragneh Mileghere wrote:
Hello, I have just started playing EVE online (reccomened by a friend), and I am loving it. <<< Alpha Clone. I am still learning the terms, and I believe "HighSec" is .7 security and higher? But am I doing right as a newbie miner just using a venturer in .7 security sector, just filling up my ore hold, and mining the ores that are specific to the security of that sector? i.e.; not mining veldspar/scordite and instead mining ores such as omber. Feel free to call me a noob, for I defidently am one. I just want to learn from the "vets" if I am doing things right, or if I need a radical change. ( this is my first forum post, sorry if I posted in wrong area)
I am using the recommended fitting for from basing mining with a strong tank. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Venture/Fittings. Since I am newbie, I changed some of the more expensive modules for their cheaper variants, a different have not purchased any rigs yet.

Thanks for any feedback!


At this time, stay away from mining, mining balance is broken and heavy against new players.
Also send mail to goonswarm alliance leaders that you expect them to fund your Plex, as it is them who gain mainly in this dishonest game balance, so let them pay for it, else leave this game, and make sure to notify everyone everywhere about it.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#7 - 2017-03-01 09:56:44 UTC
Mining "balance", like most things in Eve is market driven. If a commodity is overproduced, the price will fall. The lower price will discourage producers and encourage consumers, pushing the price back up. Changes made in Ascension - notably Alpha players and a significant buff to the Rorqual, resulted in an oversupply of low end minerals like tritanium and pyrite. These are selling at depressed levels but other minerals, like mexallon, are doing quite well.

As with any industrial activity in the game, it pays to study the market before deciding what to produce. CCP have announced that they will be nerfing the Rorqual which will reduce supply a bit but we need a major war to boost demand.

Mining is a low pay job at the best of times. Those who mine as their main source of income generally multibox a fleet of several ships. Mining in highsec will allow you to multitask - either some other in game activity that doesn't require a lot of situational awareness (you can manage PI colonies, research or production and markets just as easily sitting in a mining barge as docked in a station) - or an out of game activity like Netflix.
Veine Miromme
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2017-03-01 11:37:01 UTC
Something that is perhaps omitted in the mining charts and values may be the actual value mined per cycles (using any set of mining modules and ships configurations).

What this would do is to give you the real and exact value of income per hours or minutes of mining before seeing the final estimated in your Ore cargo hold.


What happens is that certain ore volume is mined at different rate depending on the type of Ore.
So, a lower Ore value like Kernite yielding a higher volume per hour than other null-sec Ore can be worth more after the final per hour.

This all depends on the 1.value of the Ore , 2.the number of units mined per cycle, 3.the time required per cycles, and 4.the volume in cubic meters per units.

For example:
in Fuzzwork's Ore Values
Veldspar is listed as 0.1 m^3 per unit, with a relative conversion of 415 Tritanium per 100 units of refined Veldspar.
[Also note here that refining efficiency and value may only occur at higher refining skill levels and systems (citadels) are used.]
It shows as 164.75 ISK / m^3 (cubic meter) in value, however this doesn't include the m^3 mined of Veldspar per cycle.

Compared to Kernite, showing a relative volume of 1.2 m^3 (per cycle?, per unit?, per stack?, or per minutes?) , and a 221.26 ISK / m^3 value, being worth 265.51 ISK per units (1.2 m^3 per units = 1.2 times 221.26)...

It is also listed as 244.96 ISK Ore sale each, plus 204.13 ISK M(^)3... It is obviously easy to see that those numbers may be related to the sale value or something not including the difference in actual value per hour.

Ship Type : Out of pod (for now)

Kaivarian Coste
Whale Patrol
#9 - 2017-03-01 12:02:03 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:

At this time, stay away from mining, mining balance is broken and heavy against new players.
Also send mail to goonswarm alliance leaders that you expect them to fund your Plex, as it is them who gain mainly in this dishonest game balance, so let them pay for it, else leave this game, and make sure to notify everyone everywhere about it.


Agreed. For the last few years, 80% of CCP's efforts has focused on improving null sec, where 20% of the playerbase lives. It's like they're guided by an anti-Pareto Principle or something.
Veine Miromme
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-03-01 12:14:16 UTC
Kaivarian Coste wrote:
...
Agreed. For the last few years, 80% of CCP's efforts has focused on improving null sec, where 20% of the playerbase lives. It's like they're guided by an anti-Pareto Principle or something.

idk, 20% new players added to the player base per day = double the players every 5 days or less.
Pretty sure that would be over 1 billion now.

Ship Type : Out of pod (for now)

Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#11 - 2017-03-01 15:02:49 UTC
Some storyline missions require Omber (and Kernite?) If you see a storyline agent and no omber sellorders are up nearby you can list it at double Jita price and it will still sell over time. Does not work when hubs are nearby, not enough omber is listed (10k plus needed) or agent are not used much. (Dotlan shows how much NPC get killed near an agent.) Not worth the hussle for a senior miner, but maybe useful information for alpha miners.
Ijon-Tichy
Ze One Man Show
#12 - 2017-03-01 15:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ijon-Tichy
Kaivarian Coste wrote:

Agreed. For the last few years, 80% of CCP's efforts has focused on improving null sec, where 20% of the playerbase lives. It's like they're guided by an anti-Pareto Principle or something.


Where did you get that numbers from? And how can you tell the highsec shopping alts from the full-time highsec players?

Raven Ship wrote:
[
At this time, stay away from mining, mining balance is broken and heavy against new players.
Also send mail to goonswarm alliance leaders that you expect them to fund your Plex, as it is them who gain mainly in this dishonest game balance, so let them pay for it, else leave this game, and make sure to notify everyone everywhere about it.


As this is about highsec-mining we talk about Veldspar, Scordite, Kernite, Omber, Plagioclase and Pyroxeres, right? Not really the ore that get's mined out in null? Veldspar took the biggest hit, guess that's because of alphas. The other higsec ores are more or less in the same place they were over the last months.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/18
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/20
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/1227
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/1228
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/1230
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/1224

While Tritanium dropped in price just like Velspar did
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/34
Mexallon (You know, the stuff you mainly get when mining that nice gneiss) got up in price over the last months.
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/36

Can anyone tell me now how a nullsec alliance has such an impact on highsec ore prices?
Yes, the monthly report shows a lot of mining in Delve (as it shows for The Forge too..) But the report does not show you what is mined.
Benny LeMagne
Crazyhouse Kings
#13 - 2017-03-01 17:34:49 UTC
A few things you may want to look at as a high sec alpha miner:
1. Training
- Mining: Bump in mining rate
- Mining Frigate: Bump in mining rate
- Mining Upgrades 4: Gives you the ability to use Mining Laser Upgrade II, which gives you a bump in mining rate
- Drones 2: Gives you the ability to put 2 drones in space, the light drone limit on a Venture.
- Light Drone Operation: Give you the ability to put light drones in space.

2. What to mine:
- ISK per hour = mining rate (m3/minute) * 60 * Ore value at market / volume of ore
- ISK per haul = Ore value at market *5000/volume of ore
- Ore value at market is the higher of (Raw ore value * 100, Compressed ore value)
- You can get slightly higher prices from sell orders than filling buy orders, but it takes up orders and times to realize that ISK.

3. Where to mine:
- System should have a player-owned reprocessing facility so you can compress your ore.
- System should have several asteroid belts, making it harder for someone to find you if they want you dead.
- Ideally, system should have fairly low traffic.
- Avoid spurs (one entrance/exit to the system) and pipes (only way to get from system A to system C is through system B, making both ends of system B choke points) if you can.
- Easy access to an ore hub. You can find an ore hub by looking at buy orders in your region. The hub will be the one with the most orders, or largest orders
4. Ships to buy/fly:
- For mining, you are pretty much limited to the Venture for mining
- If you are dealing in raw ore, invest in a Miasmos. Probably going to cost you under 2M ISK (Jita has it at about 1.1-1.2M most of the time, prices correspond to mineral prices), and it will allow you to mine further from your market. Also allows you to make some money when someone sells ore well under regular market value, as you can buy it, move it, and sell it at a hefty profit.

5. My Venture fit looks like this, generally:
- Miner II x2
- Salvager I if you're staying in high sec, core probe launcher if you mine in wormholes
- Mining Laser Upgrade II
- Afterburner, pick your poison
- Scanner
- mid slot defensive boost of your choice
- 2 x light drones in the drone bay

6. What to do while mining:
- Scan the market for stuff to buy/sell
- Sisters of Eve research makes for some good spare ISK while you're just sitting there.
- Helping new players in rookie chat
- Pretty much whatever you feel like.
- If you are not watching out for rats, leave your drones out to deal with them.

7. What not to do:
- Mine Omber. It's terrible.
- Stick around when someone shows up to your belt in a destroyer
- Reprocess the ore you get
- Waste time mining substandard ore. If you find a Kernite and Omber belt with all of the Kernite gone, find a belt with something better to mine, like literally anything else.
- Leave your drones behind if somebody isn't attacking you
- AFK and expect your ship to be there when you get back
- Put in a sell order for less than 3% above the highest available buy order for ore. The person placing the order pays the broker fee, so if you place a sell order close to the highest buy order, you actually make less than
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2017-03-02 04:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Ship
Ijon-Tichy wrote:


As this is about highsec-mining we talk about Veldspar, Scordite, Kernite, Omber, Plagioclase and Pyroxeres, right? Not really the ore that get's mined out in null? Veldspar took the biggest hit, guess that's because of alphas. The other higsec ores are more or less in the same place they were over the last months.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/18
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/20
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/1227
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/1228
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/1230
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/1224



Like what is wrong with you, I write that people look at wrong highsec ores, rather than at nullsec ones, and what, again get those incorrect ores from you.
It is just hard for me to be polite when seeing such one sided picking of facts.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28391
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28391

Those are ones OVERMINDED, and again as you will attempt to reject basics, those get turned in minerals, as link below show, and all of them spike down, so stop rejecting basics.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ore/

Also even this do not represent true scale, as most of nullsec minerals is send to hsec as manufactured goods, messing with even more of players.

Ijon-Tichy wrote:


Where did you get that numbers from? And how can you tell the highsec shopping alts from the full-time highsec players?


Now, about population distribution, assets distribution, there been numerous dev blogs, reports, charts. But yet you might decline them all in past, for what, will not try to guess.
But press F10
Open "World Map Control Panel"
Tab "Star Map"
Tab "Stars"
Expand "Statistics"
Click "Average Pilots in space in last 30min"

Nullsec is just one dark desert, while highsec is bright all the time, hope you start to keep up now.
Only way for nullsec to match with hsec in population, is to call CTA, involving 4-5 regions, and then there is one system bright like countless in hsec.

Ijon-Tichy wrote:

Can anyone tell me now how a nullsec alliance has such an impact on highsec ore prices?
Yes, the monthly report shows a lot of mining in Delve (as it shows for The Forge too..) But the report does not show you what is mined.


For as long as sovereignty upgrades are ingame, distribution of Ore in nullsec is known, just google it.
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-03-02 05:04:04 UTC
Benny LeMagne wrote:
A few things you may want to look at as a high sec alpha miner:
1. Training
- Mining: Bump in mining rate
- Mining Frigate: Bump in mining rate
- Mining Upgrades 4: Gives you the ability to use Mining Laser Upgrade II, which gives you a bump in mining rate
- Drones 2: Gives you the ability to put 2 drones in space, the light drone limit on a Venture.
- Light Drone Operation: Give you the ability to put light drones in space.

2. What to mine:
- ISK per hour = mining rate (m3/minute) * 60 * Ore value at market / volume of ore
- ISK per haul = Ore value at market *5000/volume of ore
- Ore value at market is the higher of (Raw ore value * 100, Compressed ore value)
- You can get slightly higher prices from sell orders than filling buy orders, but it takes up orders and times to realize that ISK.

3. Where to mine:
- System should have a player-owned reprocessing facility so you can compress your ore.
- System should have several asteroid belts, making it harder for someone to find you if they want you dead.
- Ideally, system should have fairly low traffic.
- Avoid spurs (one entrance/exit to the system) and pipes (only way to get from system A to system C is through system B, making both ends of system B choke points) if you can.
- Easy access to an ore hub. You can find an ore hub by looking at buy orders in your region. The hub will be the one with the most orders, or largest orders
4. Ships to buy/fly:
- For mining, you are pretty much limited to the Venture for mining
- If you are dealing in raw ore, invest in a Miasmos. Probably going to cost you under 2M ISK (Jita has it at about 1.1-1.2M most of the time, prices correspond to mineral prices), and it will allow you to mine further from your market. Also allows you to make some money when someone sells ore well under regular market value, as you can buy it, move it, and sell it at a hefty profit.

5. My Venture fit looks like this, generally:
- Miner II x2
- Salvager I if you're staying in high sec, core probe launcher if you mine in wormholes
- Mining Laser Upgrade II
- Afterburner, pick your poison
- Scanner
- mid slot defensive boost of your choice
- 2 x light drones in the drone bay

6. What to do while mining:
- Scan the market for stuff to buy/sell
- Sisters of Eve research makes for some good spare ISK while you're just sitting there.
- Helping new players in rookie chat
- Pretty much whatever you feel like.
- If you are not watching out for rats, leave your drones out to deal with them.

7. What not to do:
- Mine Omber. It's terrible.
- Stick around when someone shows up to your belt in a destroyer
- Reprocess the ore you get
- Waste time mining substandard ore. If you find a Kernite and Omber belt with all of the Kernite gone, find a belt with something better to mine, like literally anything else.
- Leave your drones behind if somebody isn't attacking you
- AFK and expect your ship to be there when you get back
- Put in a sell order for less than 3% above the highest available buy order for ore. The person placing the order pays the broker fee, so if you place a sell order close to the highest buy order, you actually make less than


Now that is first actually handy advice in many years at this subforum.
Professor JinMine
Project Fruit House
#16 - 2017-03-02 06:01:40 UTC
Unless you are planning to refine the ores yourself and do stuff with the minerals, don't value your ores based on mineral worth.
Your ore itself should be valued like this:

Ore value = Compressed ore price / 100

morion
Lighting Build
#17 - 2017-03-02 07:07:46 UTC
Dragneh Mileghere wrote:
I just want to learn from the "vets"

Thanks for any feedback!


save yourself all the distress of mining for ore and just buy the stuff.

and then sell it for isk and you can thus buy it again.

over and over and over forever.
Ijon-Tichy
Ze One Man Show
#18 - 2017-03-02 09:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ijon-Tichy
Raven Ship wrote:

Like what is wrong with you, I write that people look at wrong highsec ores, rather than at nullsec ones, and what, again get those incorrect ores from you.
It is just hard for me to be polite when seeing such one sided picking of facts.
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28391
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28391
Those are ones OVERMINDED, and again as you will attempt to reject basics, those get turned in minerals, as link below show, and all of them spike down, so stop rejecting basics.


Maybe you posted that somewhere else on your crusade but all I got from you here was “Goons should pay our PELX because everything is so unfair right now, go and spread the word.” And I dared to post the 3 month graphs of higsec ore prices. Because when you start with mining getting some of that highsec ore and selling it at the next hub is what you do. Those are the correct ores for a newbie miner and my point is that this works out more or less like it used to.

Crokite and veldspar went down in price because both are mainly/only trit. But was it the “alpha-veldspar” that caused the hit on trit or was it the “goon-crokite, or both? . I would not mine in highsec for more than a couple of ships to get started, but that is just me. We are on the same page that highsec mining kind of caps out fast and is less profitable then it used to be.

If that is reason enough ragequit or to call other players and playstyles out like you did is debatable. Fraction war “ruined” the prices for some LP store items and data cores, everyone tells newbies to go exploring and salvage went down, farming 10/10 sites made pirate battleships so cheap there is not much point in flying/building any other BS outside of “never come back” fleets. This is EVE and now Roqual may lower the prices for nullsec ores. But mining some highsec ore, finding some relic sites or doing some missions are still all viable ways to earn your first ISK. It's not "totally broken" for new players because of XYZ.. just nothing I would stick to forever because of the high "bittervet" risk.

No need to tell newbies they have to go for anyone just because something is a bit less profitable now. And why only Goons? Other null allies don’t mine in roquals? Did they gank your frighter?
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2017-03-02 10:49:15 UTC
Ijon-Tichy wrote:
Raven Ship wrote:

Like what is wrong with you, I write that people look at wrong highsec ores, rather than at nullsec ones, and what, again get those incorrect ores from you.
It is just hard for me to be polite when seeing such one sided picking of facts.
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28391
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28391
Those are ones OVERMINDED, and again as you will attempt to reject basics, those get turned in minerals, as link below show, and all of them spike down, so stop rejecting basics.


Maybe you posted that somewhere else on your crusade but all I got from you here was “Goons should pay our PELX because everything is so unfair right now, go and spread the word.” And I dared to post the 3 month graphs of higsec ore prices. Because when you start with mining getting some of that highsec ore and selling it at the next hub is what you do. Those are the correct ores for a newbie miner and my point is that this works out more or less like it used to.

Crokite and veldspar went down in price because both are mainly/only trit. But was it the “alpha-veldspar” that caused the hit on trit or was it the “goon-crokite, or both? . I would not mine in highsec for more than a couple of ships to get started, but that is just me. We are on the same page that highsec mining kind of caps out fast and is less profitable then it used to be.

If that is reason enough ragequit or to call other players and playstyles out like you did is debatable. Fraction war “ruined” the prices for some LP store items and data cores, everyone tells newbies to go exploring and salvage went down, farming 10/10 sites made pirate battleships so cheap there is not much point in flying/building any other BS outside of “never come back” fleets. This is EVE and now Roqual may lower the prices for nullsec ores. But mining some highsec ore, finding some relic sites or doing some missions are still all viable ways to earn your first ISK. It's not "totally broken" for new players because of XYZ.. just nothing I would stick to forever because of the high "bittervet" risk.

No need to tell newbies they have to go for anyone just because something is a bit less profitable now. And why only Goons? Other null allies don’t mine in roquals? Did they gank your frighter?


https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28420
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28391

Spodumain and Crokite, linked wrong earlier. Yes goon ones.

10/10 Faction BS, I get it is Machariel you speak about, one also supplied from Delve if I remember right, again goon related thing, market on it collapsed? - Non new player activity.

Faction war LP, is how it is. - Non new player activity.

Salvage when I see Citadel rig's selling for few bil.... salvage is going up recently for this demand. - Non new player activity.


Also about freighter, I actually wanted goons to shoot it in last weekend, but as they couldnt make easy income, and would have to take risk, they did not suicide it during whole weekend... freighter afking in Jita at gate, so this haven't worked for you.

And yes, goons are there to blame for unhealthy environment for new players, so they should pay for new players to play this game, not anyone else.
Ijon-Tichy
Ze One Man Show
#20 - 2017-03-02 14:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ijon-Tichy
Raven Ship wrote:


https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28420
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28391

Spodumain and Crokite, linked wrong earlier. Yes goon ones.

10/10 Faction BS, I get it is Machariel you speak about, one also supplied from Delve if I remember right, again goon related thing, market on it collapsed? - Non new player activity.

Faction war LP, is how it is. - Non new player activity.

Salvage when I see Citadel rig's selling for few bil.... salvage is going up recently for this demand. - Non new player activity.


Also about freighter, I actually wanted goons to shoot it in last weekend, but as they couldnt make easy income, and would have to take risk, they did not suicide it during whole weekend... freighter afking in Jita at gate, so this haven't worked for you.

And yes, goons are there to blame for unhealthy environment for new players, so they should pay for new players to play this game, not anyone else.


You only read what you want to read, not what I wrote. I wrote that FW devalued LP, but Missons are still good for new players. (I didn't write FW was a typical newbie thing, but it might surprise you how many new player go right for PVP and go for FW or RvB.)

I just don't like it when vets tell newbies "don't do this or that because it is not as good as it was long before you played". Because even if something isn't as good as it was back in time there is no need to go all "OMG it's so broken, don't do it, XYZ ruiend it all". That those who got the better end of EVE should pay the ones that struggle is nice trolling, EVE isn't known for its charity like character.. EVE is more about adapting and moving on. If you can't beat them join them?
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