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[March] Balance Tweaks: Fighters, Supercarriers & Burst Projectors

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Author
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2017-02-23 22:57:19 UTC
Increase the sensor strength of fighters as well so they're not much easier to scan down now (and have them harder to be jammed)
Aggro was fine on the fighters unless you want NPCs to permatarget and shoot fighters.
Do implants affect drone/fighter EHP? Should they?
#42 - 2017-02-23 22:57:59 UTC
THIS worrys me greatly as carrier ratting is my main source of income and plex any changes that affect carrier ratting greatly concerns me i'm worried this will make ratting extremely harder and is unnecessary



CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi m8s,

In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback.

FIGHTERS
We'd like to increase the potential counter-play options vs fighters. We're going to do this by increasing their signature radius which makes them a little easier to hit. They are currently around the small-medium drone range. This will put them in the same size category as heavy drones.
Additionally, we're giving Shadow fighters a balance pass.

Changes:
  • Light Fighters (Space Superiority) - Signature Radius: 80 (+43)
  • Light Fighters (Attack) - Signature Radius: 100 (+59)
  • Support Fighters - Signature Radius: 120 (+80)
  • Heavy Fighters (Attack) - Signature Radius: 110 (+60)
  • Heavy Fighters (Long Range) - Signature Radius: 120 (+60)
  • Shadows - Signature Radius: 100 (+55)
  • Shadows - EM Damage: 200 (+40)
  • Shadows - Thermal Damage: 200 (+40)

These changes bring Fighters closer in-line with the signature of Heavy Drones.
Lastly, there was a bug when our AI evaluated the threat of fighters. NPCs didn't consider fighters as threatening as they should have. This bug has now been fixed, and NPCs will more often shoot at fighters.
You may also want to check out this thread about brand new fighter hotkeys (thanks Five-0!)


SUPERCARRIERS
After our discussions with the CSM, they brought up the state of the Wyvern fighter hangar bay (and shield supers in general). While we'll re-asses the state of shield supers after the release of Shield Slaves, we think their points about fighter hangar bays had some merit.

Changes:
  • Wyvern Fighter Hangar Bay): 90,000 (+10,000) m3
  • Hel Fighter Hangar Bay: 110,000 (+10,000) m3


BURST PROJECTORS
We're going to increase the effect duration of burst projectors. The difficulty in using them doesn't really justify their existing small effect time.

Changes:
  • ECM Jammer Burst Projector Effect Duration: 40 (+10) seconds
  • Sensor Dampening Burst Projector Effect Duration: 60 (+30) seconds
  • Weapon Disruption Burst Projector Effect Duration: 60 (+30) seconds
  • Target Illumination Burst Projector Effect Duration: 60 (+30) seconds
  • Warp Disruption Burst Projector Effect Duration: 40 (+20) seconds
  • Stasis Webification Burst Projector Effect Duration: 40 (+20) seconds

Caldari State
#43 - 2017-02-23 22:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: JITA Char2
The patch has a big problem.

Cause the problem is that a lot of T1 fighters are already randomly diyingin a lot of anos.
(Also if you use best way of killing all npc's)

Which means actually that if they die faster the fighter will cost more than the npc payout will bring.

Which makes Carrier Ratting useless.
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#44 - 2017-02-23 23:10:41 UTC
Mawderator wrote:
There are L5 missions that can kill 2 or 3 of your fighters in a squadron if you're unlucky. The Fortress is not one of them.

I see you've never tried doing the Minmatar version. The Minmatar frigates web and paint fighters with a vengeance.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#45 - 2017-02-23 23:11:48 UTC
HOLY ******* ****. HOLLLLYYYYYYY FU************** SHI***************

FOZZIE YOU BEAUTIFUL BASTARD. YOU ARE LISTENING UP THERE. WE DID IT BOYS, WE ******* DID IT.

SUBCAPS AREN'T DEAD JUST YET.

LARRIKIN YOU SON OF A ***** YOU CAME THROUGH ON THIS ONE.

OH MY GOD.

OH MY GOD.

I CAN'T BREATH.

BEST CHANGE EVER.

HOLY ****.

HOLY ****

OH MY GOD

OH MY G
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#46 - 2017-02-23 23:12:55 UTC
JITA Char2 wrote:
The patch has a big problem.

Cause the problem is that a lot of T1 fighters are already randomly diyingin a lot of anos.
(Also if you use best way of killing all npc's)

Which means actually that if they die faster the fighter will cost more than the npc payout will bring.

Which makes Carrier Ratting useless.


Dude literally 0 important people care if carrier ratting is useless. No one useful gives a **** about whether you can carrier rat or not. Get a different ship. who cares.
#47 - 2017-02-23 23:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jackson Ikkala
W/e
progodlegend wrote:
HOLY ******* ****. HOLLLLYYYYYYY FU************** SHI***************

FOZZIE YOU BEAUTIFUL BASTARD. YOU ARE LISTENING UP THERE. WE DID IT BOYS, WE ******* DID IT.

SUBCAPS AREN'T DEAD JUST YET.

LARRIKIN YOU SON OF A ***** YOU CAME THROUGH ON THIS ONE.

OH MY GOD.

OH MY GOD.

I CAN'T BREATH.

BEST CHANGE EVER.

HOLY ****.

HOLY ****

OH MY GOD

OH MY G
#48 - 2017-02-23 23:19:25 UTC
Signature change?
It was ever an issue?

People kill fighters easily using subcapitals.
Superiority fighters chew other fast.
Rats can easily alpha a T2 fighter on a max skilled thanathos.
I lost wings while they where MWD back to the carrier but they got webs and died.

There was an bug that made rats not aggro fighters?
Constant management on fighters recalls to fix and replace lost fighters.


Next thing support fighters - only sirens are good, there is no point in using any other.


Shield Slaves and shield super balance - when? I know that there are plenty of other things but those are not small toys, people invested a lot of time and $
Shield supers are very broken due to neuts - maybe introduce a passive adaptive lowslot thingy and balance this later instead of making people to wait 2 more years.

I know that EVE is a game about patience - but do we really need to skill it so hard?


Super fleet hangars - nice, but can support fighters have size reduced?.
Solyaris Chtonium
#49 - 2017-02-23 23:19:32 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
JITA Char2 wrote:
The patch has a big problem.

Cause the problem is that a lot of T1 fighters are already randomly diyingin a lot of anos.
(Also if you use best way of killing all npc's)

Which means actually that if they die faster the fighter will cost more than the npc payout will bring.

Which makes Carrier Ratting useless.


Dude literally 0 important people care if carrier ratting is useless. No one useful gives a **** about whether you can carrier rat or not. Get a different ship. who cares.



I hope you like more dictors, cheap HACs, and light tackle because that's what you're going to see your fleet comps have a decent bit more instead of mainline T3 dps and CS/Recon support. Since carriers probably fatten your line members wallets and corp wallets and in turn SRP funds. But who am I to know.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#50 - 2017-02-23 23:27:44 UTC
Blood Animus wrote:
But who am I to know.


Next time just lead off with that.
The-Culture
#51 - 2017-02-23 23:30:08 UTC
Copying my reddit reply;

Are you kidding about increasing fighter sig radius? They already bleed fast as anything in a fleet fight. You usually lost 7/9 fighters if you pull them as soon as the first damage/ewar effect lands on them.

Honestly small fleets may be having trouble with them (they shouldn't, just bring ecm or a single web/paint) but in large fleets they are so vulnerable.



I'm not saying this as rhetoric. I've been in a decent number of carrier fights since the last set of changes, both in the context of citadel sieges, response fleets to small gangs, and just now a 40 carrier drop on two 100 man fleets (t3s and cerbs)

Fighters are actually awful to use in these fights effectively. It went typically like this;

* Lock targets as broadcast
* Launch fighters
* MWD fighters towards target, start applying dps.
* Sync volleys with all other carriers because fighter dps can't break subcaps
* Have eyes on fighters on all time, as soon as a single ewar effect or damage appeared pull that particular squad with MWD on
* Watch as most of the squad is melted before it returns
* Pull the other squads as they are targetted, restock and relaunch ASAP
* Berate the fact nothing is dying because you're having to constantly pull and relaunch and wonder how long you can continue for as the fighter stock dwindles.


Honestly have you guys done significant playtesting with this or is it mostly a case of observing complaints from people who struggle to kill them. Carriers are INCREDIBLY easy to defang, you literally need a few logi, a single webbing ship or a single target painter. If you're fighting a solo carrier or a small group of them you can even defang them with T1 ECM Ships (Griffins) because they have such a low sensor strength and the lock time even with NSA isn't fast enough to lock and pop.

I strongly urge you guys to reconsider on the fighter changes and do some homework (like a mass test). Yes if you bring a battleship or unsupported cruiser gang to kill a carrier you will get melted, but they are so obscenely easy to counter it's laughable.
#52 - 2017-02-23 23:30:44 UTC
Qerek wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

These changes bring Fighters closer in-line with the signature of Heavy Drones.
Lastly, there was a bug when our AI evaluated the threat of fighters. NPCs didn't consider fighters as threatening as they should have. This bug has now been fixed, and NPCs will more often shoot at fighters.


Can you guys elaborate on your intentions relating to carriers in a PVE environment? Obviously, EVE is very PVP centric, but using a carrier in null anomalies seem to be pretty much required to get proficient with the interface so you can eventually feel comfortable dropping your carrier in PVP. Your interface update made carrier ratting "fun" again at the same time eliminating the multiboxing carrier issues of the past. Are you unhappy with the level of isk earned by carrier ratting?

Regarding your Fighters -> Heavy Drones comparison...the best ships I can think of (someone correct me here) to utilize heavy drones (arguably the only ones worth using) are:

Rattlesnake
Eos
Myrmadon
Prophecy (?)
Ishtar
VNI

Every single one of these ships have large bonuses to BOTH drone HPs and drone speed (velocity or MWD). This means the base stats of heavy drones are worthless for comparison because almost no one uses them at those HP/speed to sig radius ratios. These bonuses are what consistently keeps these heavy drones alive, therefore keeping there use affordable.

With carriers, you choose between a very small HP bonus (Thanatos) or a very small speed bonus (Nid) and that's it. Also, loosing fighters is much more expensive.

I think you are getting a lot of negative feedback from these changes because we all thought carrier risk/reward was in a pretty solid place currently. Don't get me wrong, I totally get the bug fix thing...but the combined sig radius change seems like you will be destroying a really fun activity.


This sums it up nicely. You're basically destroying the fun inherent in ratting with a carrier. It has also been pointed out that this is going to make the spread on carriers so wide nobody will fly the archon or chimera for any reason, due to needing the increased fighter HP or speed for sig tanking.

I can't run sites now without my fighters always being fired upon in Sansha space. I'm not sure where the data comes from that they're not being shot at enough, but can it really get worse than 100%?
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#53 - 2017-02-23 23:32:27 UTC
Zelden Aurilen wrote:
Copying my reddit reply;

Are you kidding about increasing fighter sig radius? They already bleed fast as anything in a fleet fight. You usually lost 7/9 fighters if you pull them as soon as the first damage/ewar effect lands on them.

Honestly small fleets may be having trouble with them (they shouldn't, just bring ecm or a single web/paint) but in large fleets they are so vulnerable.



I'm not saying this as rhetoric. I've been in a decent number of carrier fights since the last set of changes, both in the context of citadel sieges, response fleets to small gangs, and just now a 40 carrier drop on two 100 man fleets (t3s and cerbs)

Fighters are actually awful to use in these fights effectively. It went typically like this;

* Lock targets as broadcast
* Launch fighters
* MWD fighters towards target, start applying dps.
* Sync volleys with all other carriers because fighter dps can't break subcaps
* Have eyes on fighters on all time, as soon as a single ewar effect or damage appeared pull that particular squad with MWD on
* Watch as most of the squad is melted before it returns
* Pull the other squads as they are targetted, restock and relaunch ASAP
* Berate the fact nothing is dying because you're having to constantly pull and relaunch and wonder how long you can continue for as the fighter stock dwindles.


Honestly have you guys done significant playtesting with this or is it mostly a case of observing complaints from people who struggle to kill them. Carriers are INCREDIBLY easy to defang, you literally need a few logi, a single webbing ship or a single target painter. If you're fighting a solo carrier or a small group of them you can even defang them with T1 ECM Ships (Griffins) because they have such a low sensor strength and the lock time even with NSA isn't fast enough to lock and pop.

I strongly urge you guys to reconsider on the fighter changes and do some homework (like a mass test). Yes if you bring a battleship or unsupported cruiser gang to kill a carrier you will get melted, but they are so obscenely easy to counter it's laughable.


Dude if you couldn't kill two 100 man fleets with 40 carriers you should check your fits out man, because that's just pathetic. You should have absolutely wrecked those cerbs and t3s. You don't even need to sync up your volleys you should be doing like 100k DPS+ easy.
Pandemic Legion
#54 - 2017-02-23 23:33:28 UTC
Just went on sisi to test it all out. The sig radius' are pretty cool, can definitely hit them alot easier. But the Shadow still feels out of place. ALSO the tool tip is broken for it, it says it only deals thermal damage when it's loaded in your bay, not thermal/EM.
Elemental Tide
#55 - 2017-02-23 23:34:17 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi m8s,

Lastly, there was a bug when our AI evaluated the threat of fighters. NPCs didn't consider fighters as threatening as they should have. This bug has now been fixed, and NPCs will more often shoot at fighters.




As i understand from your post, you want to:
Make their signature radius larger (so other players can more easily target them) Roll
Unbugg the NPC's hostile intentions to the Fighters (they are already very hostile towards them, but you want them to be more so). Roll

Ok fine, but in return, you better make the fighters worth the money, time, skills etc.
Give them a large increase in EHP, respective of the m3 of space they occupy.
Make EWAR less effective, perhaps by the number of fighters left in that squadron.
Reduce their refueling time substantially. (since we will be returning them to bays more often)
Reduce their m3 so we can fit more of them in our fighter bays since they will be dying that much more often.
Reduce the mineral cost required to manufacture fighters since we will be going through them that much more often.
Increase the fighter's tracking speed and damage so the effective DPS will actually be more - since they will be spending more time flying back and refueling and being topped up in numbers, than before...


Increase Support Fighters usefulness - ie Cenobite Neut amount or reduce their cycle time. because they are already lacking in the usefullness department for the fact there are only 3, take up 9k m3 of space for one flight of them, and are easily alpha'd and now even more so if your changes go though...


Test Alliance Please Ignore
#56 - 2017-02-23 23:34:24 UTC
ITT:

tears over not being able to carrier rat for 100mil ticks anymore.

tears over not being able to obliterate subcaps with impunity anymore.

Adapt or Die

git gud

learn 2 play
#57 - 2017-02-23 23:37:59 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
ITT:

tears over not being able to carrier rat for 100mil ticks anymore.

tears over not being able to obliterate subcaps with impunity anymore.

Adapt or Die

git gud

learn 2 play


If you think a group of 20 battleships getting wasted by a single carrier is not supposed to be right, you obviously haven't flown caps since the BoB days. No they shouldn't have impunity, but they should be able to rat. And whoever is getting 100m ticks is exploiting somewhere. Average tick in a carrier is ~50m. Try it sometime before you talk about it?
Pandemic Horde
#58 - 2017-02-23 23:40:49 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
ITT:

tears over not being able to carrier rat for 100mil ticks anymore.

tears over not being able to obliterate subcaps with impunity anymore.

Adapt or Die

git gud

learn 2 play


Can you please just go and shake the palm and let the grown ups give reasonable feedback? Thank you.
Pandemic Legion
#59 - 2017-02-23 23:43:27 UTC
For the most part, the changes look good! The Wyvern sorely needed a larger drone bay and the burst projectors needed a buff.

A few suggestions:

1) Shadows will still be bad and un-used after the patch. If you want supercarriers to actually field them, you should instead make them a long range fighter bomber that gets an Afterburner prop mod.

2) Revenant fighter bay should be large as a Nyx's

3) The web strength bonus on a Vendetta should apply to Dromis and not to the web burst projector.
#60 - 2017-02-23 23:43:59 UTC
Well...as soon as i get into Carriers both for pvp and PVE...you pull out that oversized nerf bat that kills any ship in it's path...Time to move to dread at least those you know you have almost 90% or more chance of being killed...at least i can kill while getting killed.... Forget about PVP or PVE in carriers now haha RIP

Also...Support fighters are like..killing a T1 Frig as it is...

Well...time to off load my carriers/fighters and get.....nothing?
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