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Exploration Feedback - Known Space Data Sites

Author
Krysalys Terminus
The Crimson Order
#1 - 2017-02-17 02:22:56 UTC
Ugh

I am thinking that I am not the first to say this, but regarding Known Space Data Sites.... and excluding the Sleeper Sites.... Data sites are trash.

In a relic site, if you make X isk in 5 cans, on average, it will take you 5 data sites with 5 cans in each site, to make that same X isk....

I am fairly sure that it is NOT an exaggeration to say that 90% of all players who run Cosmic Signatures skip over every Data site that they see, simply because the massive likelihood that it will be a utter waste of time is so high...


What is being done to rectify this?
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
#2 - 2017-02-17 02:29:49 UTC
Eve is a player driven market, the reason data sites are not profitable is because of the low demand for there resources.

Relic sites drop salvage used to make rigs, which are generally put on every ship that has a rig point, many of which die and some of which are destroyed for other rigs. This keeps the demand for salvage up so relic sites are generally profitable as a result.

Data sites on the other hand drop materials used for invention for the production of T2 ships and items. When a ship is destroyed there is a 50/50 chance that an individual item will drop also each successful invention job will yield a BPC that usually has multiple runs. These two thing are what causes data sites to be less profitable than relic sites.

Rigs have a 100% chance to be destroyed.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Krysalys Terminus
The Crimson Order
#3 - 2017-02-17 02:39:15 UTC
Straight

You did not answer the question. Why the items in the sites are worth so much less is not the point.

What is going to be done to fix it? Simply stating that it is "as intended" is rubbish.

"Data sites are not worth the time to run" :: "Content in this game is not worth the time to play"

Those two statements are synonymous, and CCP as a game developer should never settle to have content in their game that is not worth the player's time to engage in, as that is a direct indication that CCP as a development company does not have all of their player's interests in mind.

If any see this as being not an issue... clearly that person is not invested in this aspect of the game, and should refrain from expressing their opinion, as it is little more than a case example of GIGO... Garbage In, Garbage out.
Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University
Ivy League
#4 - 2017-02-17 03:20:19 UTC
Krysalys Terminus wrote:
Straight

You did not answer the question. Why the items in the sites are worth so much less is not the point.

What is going to be done to fix it? Simply stating that it is "as intended" is rubbish.

"Data sites are not worth the time to run" :: "Content in this game is not worth the time to play"

Those two statements are synonymous, and CCP as a game developer should never settle to have content in their game that is not worth the player's time to engage in, as that is a direct indication that CCP as a development company does not have all of their player's interests in mind.

If any see this as being not an issue... clearly that person is not invested in this aspect of the game, and should refrain from expressing their opinion, as it is little more than a case example of GIGO... Garbage In, Garbage out.


what would YOU suggest as a way to fix it?

simply increasing the amount of loot dropped in data sites would only serve to drive the prices down even further by flooding the market even more. adding salvage to data sites, beyond not making much sense lore wise (yes lore is a thing) would take away from the uniqueness of both types of sites, and through putting more materials into the market, drive the value of both types of sites down.

Currently Data sites do have a small chance of dropping rare BPC's which if you get lucky and snag one, makes that particular data site MUCH more valuable than any relic site. if you increased the drop rate of those BPC's though, again, would push the market price down.

The way I look at it, Relic sites are reliable steady money, your pretty much guaranteed a certain amount of isk for running them.
Data sites are more of a gamble, your probably gonna come out with less isk per site, but if you get lucky and snag a blueprint that could be worth more than your entire nights haul.

Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels
Solitaire.
#5 - 2017-02-17 03:36:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Matthias Ancaladron
Not true.

Ghost sites are good. I got a mod grade ascendancy blueprint. Missed a gamma blueprint in another because i got a short timer.
Regular data and relic sites are junk tho. Only the ghost data sites are any good and there's no relic equivalent as far as I can tell.

Relic sites aren't even worth going to in High sec, I've never seen something good in one. Data sites I go to and scan down to see if there's any blueprints but 99% of the time there's nothing worthwhile and 99% of 1% it's a garbage bpc that's not worth anything.

So I'd say slip relic, scan data cans them then move on, and hope you get a ghost site that won't waste your time with a premature timer.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
The Bastard Cartel
#6 - 2017-02-17 03:46:14 UTC
I seem to remember that Data sites used to be as good as Relic sites (so to speak). That was when you could only get Datacores through exploration and Research Agents.

Now Datacores are mostly brought to market by overfarmed FW LP and results that said market is completely saturated and Datacores worth peanuts.
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-02-17 03:53:27 UTC
The ratio of payout between relic and data sites is the same in j-space.

CCP has made buffs to data sites over the last couple of years. Reducing m3 storage requirements and improving the drops. They haven't announced any future changes, but they are aware of player concerns.

The main problem is probably that FW produces the same loot driving the price down.

Oh, and that exploration is new player friendly. If the loot drop isn't that valuable experienced players will move on to more lucrative activities leaving something for the new players.

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2017-02-17 04:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Starrakatt wrote:
I seem to remember that Data sites used to be as good as Relic sites (so to speak). That was when you could only get Datacores through exploration and Research Agents.

Now Datacores are mostly brought to market by overfarmed FW LP and results that said market is completely saturated and Datacores worth peanuts.

This is the main reason why Data Sites are no longer profitable.

Also most of the items gained from Data Sites take up a lot more cargospace compared to Relic Sites and as such explorers have to dock up and unload more often resulting in missed opportunities to run other sites due to massive competition.


DMC
Cade Windstalker
#9 - 2017-02-17 04:01:17 UTC
If data sites were truly not worthwhile to run then no one would run them and the price would go up.

CCP could significantly cut the loot drops from these sites, but that would mostly just reduce their value since there are other sources of data cores and this would be unlikely to increase the price enough to offset the lost value from the sites.

In short unless CCP introduce some new loot type to add to these sites, or do something to massively change the supply and demand for their existing drops, there isn't anything to be done. Sites and market are working as intended.

Oh, and for the record I do run scan sites, it's kind of my default activity when I have nothing else to do, and I do run data sites because I'm in it as much for the fun of running around grabbing stuff and playing the hacking game as the ISK.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2017-02-17 04:05:28 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
The ratio of payout between relic and data sites is the same in j-space.

Just wanted to point out that some players may not know that J-space = Worm space.



DMC
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2017-02-17 04:08:13 UTC
Datacores can also be bought from the Faction Warfare LP stores or obtained from research agents. These two combined make the datacores a lot more common and less valuable.

A signature :o

Malcorath Sacerdos
Rogue Meddlers
#12 - 2017-02-17 07:36:05 UTC
Krysalys Terminus wrote:
Straight

You did not answer the question. Why the items in the sites are worth so much less is not the point.

What is going to be done to fix it? Simply stating that it is "as intended" is rubbish.

"Data sites are not worth the time to run" :: "Content in this game is not worth the time to play"

Those two statements are synonymous, and CCP as a game developer should never settle to have content in their game that is not worth the player's time to engage in, as that is a direct indication that CCP as a development company does not have all of their player's interests in mind.

If any see this as being not an issue... clearly that person is not invested in this aspect of the game, and should refrain from expressing their opinion, as it is little more than a case example of GIGO... Garbage In, Garbage out.


ok first off this is a sandbox game. ccp builds and maintains the world and the mechanics of the game the worth of ingame items they shoose to put in the world is up to us to deside. so what can you do to make these things more profitable ?

shure the devs could make it so that data site materials is needed in just about everything and hey presto data site loot would be very expensive. is this what youwant?
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#13 - 2017-02-17 07:40:53 UTC
Krysalys Terminus wrote:
What is being done to rectify this?

Nothing.

This has been a long term complaint by players. Intended by CCP.

Most recently, they did improve the drops from data sites, but there is nothing being done to even the difference. It's not an issue.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#14 - 2017-02-17 07:47:04 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Most recently, they did improve the drops from data sites, but there is nothing being done to even the difference. It's not an issue.

They did? Even with introducing new hacking modules those sites are worthless, and yes it is an issue when you have a game content not worth doing.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Krysalys Terminus
The Crimson Order
#15 - 2017-02-17 22:55:40 UTC
Shocked

I'd have thought that it would be obvious what to do to make Data Sites more worthwhile: Make the items found in those sites be more in demand, and not by reducing the available quantities... (although the idea that you can get the same rewards from FW is just a bit stupid.....)

What I thought was obvious: Make the items found in Data Sites a more substantial requirement for production of goods.

It is an obvious solution to a simple problem, really. Or so I thought... I just wanted to know what, if any, plans CCP has for this clear problem.

RE the guy who scans the Data Sites and cherry picks the good loot: Thanks for being part of the problem. Cry
When you do that, you make what is already a broken problem all that much worse, because now the next guy to come along also gets screwed, and is then immediately less likely to ever run a Data Site again.
Cade Windstalker
#16 - 2017-02-17 23:18:39 UTC
Krysalys Terminus wrote:
Shocked

I'd have thought that it would be obvious what to do to make Data Sites more worthwhile: Make the items found in those sites be more in demand, and not by reducing the available quantities... (although the idea that you can get the same rewards from FW is just a bit stupid.....)

What I thought was obvious: Make the items found in Data Sites a more substantial requirement for production of goods.

It is an obvious solution to a simple problem, really. Or so I thought... I just wanted to know what, if any, plans CCP has for this clear problem.

RE the guy who scans the Data Sites and cherry picks the good loot: Thanks for being part of the problem. Cry
When you do that, you make what is already a broken problem all that much worse, because now the next guy to come along also gets screwed, and is then immediately less likely to ever run a Data Site again.


Which would, pretty much by definition, increase the price of T2 goods, which would be a generally unpopular move. A better solution would be to add some new kind of loot to Data Sites, but that would be a less than simple change since you would need to either create a new thing for that loot to go into, or find something existing items whose existing source wouldn't be too adversely affected by having another source added.

Just because two things that are part of the same activity have different values per time spent does not mean that a problem exists.

Combat sites have an even wider value swing because lots of sites are lower value, and on top of that many sites rely on random escalation chance for their value which means even the same site can be worth tens or hundreds of millions or a few million.

The same applies to missions. Some missions are worth a ton and quick to do, others are slower and worth less in total.

Data sites do not need to be worth the same as Relic Sites. If you don't find them worthwhile then don't do them.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#17 - 2017-02-17 23:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
... It's not an issue.

...those sites are worthless, and yes it is an issue when you have a game content not worth doing.

They are worth doing, but maybe not if your goal in game is ISK/hr or whatever other monetary figure you go by.

My industry alt runs data sites regularly. It's part of the game to do and it helps her industry play. Worth it on two levels. Maybe not for everyone, but different strokes for different folks.
Krysalys Terminus
The Crimson Order
#18 - 2017-02-17 23:41:30 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Just because two things that are part of the same activity have different values per time spent does not mean that a problem exists.
...
Data sites do not need to be worth the same as Relic Sites. If you don't find them worthwhile then don't do them.


They are not part of the same activity.

People doing only Relic sites skip ALL of the Data sites in a region. The next player to come along will ONLY find Data sites (until the sites respawn, when the entire scenario restarts).

When you go into a system, you do not know if you have Data or Relic, so you have to scan them down.... and when you do, you've wasted your time if there are only Data sites, because you are only interested in Relic sites, due to the absolutely overbalanced worth for Relic sites.

The same does NOT apply to Missions or Combat sites, because the difficulty of those sites is what gives more or less worth to the site.
Cade Windstalker
#19 - 2017-02-17 23:49:21 UTC
Krysalys Terminus wrote:
They are not part of the same activity.

People doing only Relic sites skip ALL of the Data sites in a region. The next player to come along will ONLY find Data sites (until the sites respawn, when the entire scenario restarts).

When you go into a system, you do not know if you have Data or Relic, so you have to scan them down.... and when you do, you've wasted your time if there are only Data sites, because you are only interested in Relic sites, due to the absolutely overbalanced worth for Relic sites.

The same does NOT apply to Missions or Combat sites, because the difficulty of those sites is what gives more or less worth to the site.


Except you can (and I personally do) run both at the same time, and they are both part of the same activity generally known as "Scanning and Exploration".

Again, if you don't find them worthwhile to do then don't do them. If you're only finding one type of site it's because someone else came through and ran all of one type already, leaving the other.

Also that last bit is not accurate, site rewards or time per reward do not correlate to difficulty in anything more than a general sense. For example high-end Low Sec sites are generally worth more than high end Null sites because the majority of the value is in the loot and fewer people run Low Sec sites for A-type mods than run Null sites for X-Types.
Orakkus
Imperium Technologies
Hooligans.
#20 - 2017-02-17 23:52:42 UTC
Well, let's also consider what we as pro-explorers can do to help the situation. Typically there are six types of loot that we get from faction (non-drone) datasites:


  • Datacores
  • Decryptors
  • High-Grade Materials (Used for specialized items like the storyline analyzers)
  • Low-Grade Materials (Used for "stuff that we never see")
  • Precoursor Items (Used for Storyline items)
  • BPCs, usually of either Ancillary items, or POS structures


What I've done to typically make datasites profitable is to do the invention myself for the invention materials, and do the builds myself for the BPCs and Precoursor materials. That being said, I think we need to think beyond the two typical ideas of either a.) make the resource less available or b.) add other valuable materials to the loot. There has got to be some ways to make a profit out of these things without having to rely on CCP or the CSM. At least we should make a concerted effort first to find out what options we might have.

Krysalys Terminus wrote:

RE the guy who scans the Data Sites and cherry picks the good loot: Thanks for being part of the problem. Cry
When you do that, you make what is already a broken problem all that much worse, because now the next guy to come along also gets screwed, and is then immediately less likely to ever run a Data Site again.


Amen.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

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