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Killmail modification.

Author
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2017-01-30 16:43:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Trant
TLDR: Keep KMs but remove intel aspect, by not reporting what modules were destroyed or where anything was fitted. Just give total values in isk and a bland list of modules that dropped, including those in the cargo.

___________________

I quite often see people suggesting that KMs should be removed from the game, but I believe them to be a huge content driver and their removal would ultimately kill the game.

However, I do think that they contain too much information that is irrelevant to the content driving benefit and abused as an intel gathering tool. Thus I suggest, removing the slot layout element of the KM and simply listing all modules that survived + a monatary figure for all that didn't. Thus a KM for a well fit Merlin might look like this:

Small Neutron Blaster II x 2
Caldari Navy Antimatter S x 565
Siege Missile Launcher I
100MN AB I
Medium Shield Extender II
Damage Control II
Total Dropped = 4.4M
Total Destroyed = 18.6M

Note: The Siege Missile Launcher and the 100MN AB were in the cargohold - or were they?

PvPers like their KB stats even the ones that claim they don't, but it is their overall stats that drive them to undock - kill to death ratio, total isk killed and lost, number of solo kills etc. The fact that pilot A had a civilian shield booster fitted might generate a good laugh, but people don't undock to get a specific killmail. Meanwhile the ability to, at a glance, see the fits of a potential opponant and decide whether (or not) to take a fight is a content removing aspect, or at the very least generate only poor content. While most people will gank, it is the close or potentially riskier fights that make the adranline pump.

With this suggestion, People would still race to wh*re on a tackled Rattlesnake or Keepstar takedown to get the multi billion isk stat and another kill on their killboard. But they wouldn't be able to look up a pilots killboard to see how he fits his Slicer that had just been spotted jumping into system and then fit the perfect counter or avoid the fight altogether.

You might be able to study several losses and piece together a likely fit, but that would take time and never be totally accurate, for one you won't know the rigs. Someone who actually crafts together an exotic fit and tried to make some content, wouldn't have it undone the moment he lost the first one. Nor would a bunch of copycats jump straight on the bandwagon the moment a good fit was spotted.

This suggestion would create an element of uncertainty, reward people who switched fits and tried new things and make the use of the ship scanner a lot more relevant. Especially in the solo/small-medium gang arena. I believe it would generate more fights as there would be less blue balling because you don't have the perfect counter. People would actually go out and take on larger gangs because they have EFTed an odd spider tanking comp and get to use it more than once or can work out the kinks over several fights.

Some will argue that the risk adverse, will become even more risk adverse. But if a pilot/fleet will undock only if they are absolutely certain they can gank something down. Well they'll just have to stay docked a little more, that's no loss to the game in my books.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2 - 2017-01-30 16:49:08 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
TLDR: Keep KMs but remove intel aspect, by not reporting what modules were destroyed or where anything was fitted. Just give total values in isk and a bland list of modules that dropped, including those in the cargo.

I think that's half the appeal. Good luck with that! Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#3 - 2017-01-30 16:50:13 UTC
You could also remove the players names and the location of the conflict. Even the date/time of the kill isn't needed as that also gives intel on when the guy was where.




The ideal KM:

Lost - thorax
Value - 9.3 million isk
Value of dropped items - 1.4 million isk





This would also save a lot of data space that is currently being wasted on useless extra info.
Van Doe
#4 - 2017-01-30 16:58:58 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You could also remove the players names and the location of the conflict. Even the date/time of the kill isn't needed as that also gives intel on when the guy was where.




The ideal KM:

Lost - thorax
Value - 9.3 million isk
Value of dropped items - 1.4 million isk





This would also save a lot of data space that is currently being wasted on useless extra info.

The even more ideal Km

1 Lost

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.

Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2017-01-30 16:59:46 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Major Trant wrote:
TLDR: Keep KMs but remove intel aspect, by not reporting what modules were destroyed or where anything was fitted. Just give total values in isk and a bland list of modules that dropped, including those in the cargo.

I think that's half the appeal. Good luck with that! Lol

That might be half the appeal to an FC, but it isn't for most pilots.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6 - 2017-01-30 17:01:09 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
That might be half the appeal to an FC, but it isn't for most pilots.

I would be down for getting rid of killmails altogether, but I'm probably in the minority.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#7 - 2017-01-30 17:07:53 UTC
Van Doe wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You could also remove the players names and the location of the conflict. Even the date/time of the kill isn't needed as that also gives intel on when the guy was where.




The ideal KM:

Lost - thorax
Value - 9.3 million isk
Value of dropped items - 1.4 million isk





This would also save a lot of data space that is currently being wasted on useless extra info.

The even more ideal Km

1 Lost



That would be super sweet. I'd be e-famous. My name on every km - wooot.
Van Doe
#8 - 2017-01-30 17:16:47 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Van Doe wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You could also remove the players names and the location of the conflict. Even the date/time of the kill isn't needed as that also gives intel on when the guy was where.




The ideal KM:

Lost - thorax
Value - 9.3 million isk
Value of dropped items - 1.4 million isk





This would also save a lot of data space that is currently being wasted on useless extra info.

The even more ideal Km

1 Lost



That would be super sweet. I'd be e-famous. My name on every km - wooot.

You're welcome.
I talk to my ccp contact to make it happen

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.

Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2017-01-30 17:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Trant
I think people saying that KMs should be removed altogether, believe that doing so will end 'evil' ganking but the sov wars and other 'good' pvp will remain unaffected.

I think such views are unrealistic, if two groups of players come together that aren't balanced, a gank is going to occur. The FC of the stronger side might hold some of his people back to bait a bigger fight, but he isn't going to send half his people home to make it fair and risk losing the fight.

Conversely the null sec line members don't join their alliance and take part in the campaigns to capture a rich moon for the benefit of their CEOs. They join for the fights, ideally to be on the winning side of such fights and permanent records of those fights are huge drivers. They contribute to the lore and propaganda and are carried with the individual pilots when they move to another corp.

Suggesting removing the timestamp is unrealistic, I've been in many fleet fights and people want to see the KM immediately. They want to see what damage they did, whether they got top damage and who in similarly fit ships got better damage. They are not going to wait 24 hours or more otherwise people will lose interest, stop turning up for the fights and ultimately leave Eve. If the KMs are generated when needed, a third party Killboard is going to add a timestamp.

System information is perhaps not so important to the individual pilot, but while it is an intel tool, it is also a content driver. It falls into the catagory of be careful what you wish for.

As for removing the victims name - unrealistic, KM would still need to record loss values against a pilot otherwise kill-death, isk efficiency etc would lose it's meaning. Any changes to the KM system must be acceptable to the pilots who want them - the PvPers, not as a means to remove certain content and make PvE safer.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2017-01-30 17:57:19 UTC
keep kill mails as is just remove the api

the kill mail does not give free intel to the guy who got it it gives free intel to everyone else
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2017-01-30 18:02:01 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
keep kill mails as is just remove the api

the kill mail does not give free intel to the guy who got it it gives free intel to everyone else


That would work. You would still get tryhard manually posting them on websites but everyone would stop using it for intel. You also get to keep all your fond memories of the kills you got if that's your fancy.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2017-01-30 18:05:21 UTC
Major Trant wrote:


As for removing the victims name - unrealistic, KM would still need to record loss values against a pilot otherwise kill-death, isk efficiency etc would lose it's meaning. Any changes to the KM system must be acceptable to the pilots who want them - the PvPers, not as a means to remove certain content and make PvE safer.


Isk efficiency is already of no value on killboard anyway. If you want a good example, just look me up on zkill. I'm absolute trash at PvP and still got 98.6% ISK efficiency.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2017-01-30 18:06:44 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Major Trant wrote:


As for removing the victims name - unrealistic, KM would still need to record loss values against a pilot otherwise kill-death, isk efficiency etc would lose it's meaning. Any changes to the KM system must be acceptable to the pilots who want them - the PvPers, not as a means to remove certain content and make PvE safer.


Isk efficiency is already of no value on killboard anyway. If you want a good example, just look me up on zkill. I'm absolute trash at PvP and still got 98.6% ISK efficiency.

^


all isk eff does is force players to avoid fights out of fear of being kicked from a group or not being let into a future group
Lugh Crow-Slave
#14 - 2017-01-30 18:24:10 UTC
Major Trant wrote:

PvPers like their KB stats even the ones that claim they don't, but it is their overall stats that drive them to undock



here i thought i didn't care. i thought i was undocking to fight for my alliance to keep my brothers alive even if it meant staining my KB with a 3b lose or more recently i thought i was undocking to teach newbros and show them how fun and possible pvp was even if they just finished making their toon an hour ago.

the people i fly with and for, they are the reason i undock. I have spent months on individuals who have had K/D isk eff all drilled into their heads trying to recondition them to have fun in fights again to welp into that VNI with a kestrel. because who knows you could win, you probably wont you will have fun though and most of the time you will learn something.

this idea that PvP is or should be driven by states has no place in eve thats the mentality for a MOBA or arena shooter. now if that motivates you that's fine. It's why i save leave KMs in the game just remove the api. people driven by states will put in the effort to post screenshots and the like but it will free players who are held down by the idea of getting a bad KB.

i was like this, i used to be so proud that i held a 97% eff. then i joined a group and they changed the way i looked at fights. The best CEO i eve had told me this "A fight you won can't show how good you are only how bad you aren't. It's only in fights you lose that will show you how far your skills will take you" took me forever to get my head around that but once i did and the chains of my KB were lifted i finally started to look for fun fights rather than sure fights.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#15 - 2017-01-30 18:30:32 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Van Doe wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You could also remove the players names and the location of the conflict. Even the date/time of the kill isn't needed as that also gives intel on when the guy was where.




The ideal KM:

Lost - thorax
Value - 9.3 million isk
Value of dropped items - 1.4 million isk





This would also save a lot of data space that is currently being wasted on useless extra info.

The even more ideal Km

1 Lost



That would be super sweet. I'd be e-famous. My name on every km - wooot.

On every killmail ever, I'd see the Thanatoses you owe me.

I'm not sure I could take that kind of emotional strain. Cry

Twisted

Back on topic: I could definitely get behind the streamlining of the current killmail system, but I think what got described in the quote above would be a bit far. At the very least, everyone involved on the kill should be included, or strip the "involved parties" altogether and send out a copy to each involved party. This latter idea may help with issues like massive killmails for structures, although having to send out that many abbreviated killmails may present issues of its own.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#16 - 2017-01-30 18:42:17 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Major Trant wrote:
That might be half the appeal to an FC, but it isn't for most pilots.

I would be down for getting rid of killmails altogether, but I'm probably in the minority.


I am with you.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#17 - 2017-01-30 18:46:42 UTC
INTEL on KM

Name
Ship Flown
Ship Fitting
Time
Place
Involved Parties
Cargo


Every item in a km is actionable intel. All of it (OK, so I throw in a slaver hound and you carry a dancer - cargo probably isn't actionable in most cases). I think it would be silly at the point (10+ years) to change them.

Ships flown and their fittings is important.
When and were they fly is important.
Who they normally fly with is important.

The intel is important on both sides of the km - for instance I learn who, when, where and with how many the winners hang with.


Let's call this one a draw and move on to other things.

Van Doe
#18 - 2017-01-30 18:49:45 UTC
What bothers me most is the impact it might have on information gathering.
To prove skill ot lack of such you could argue about it.

There are no information you could not get in some use.

And also its a why to give false information out there
And distort them.

This is high level of gaming to gather information and put them in some use.

You could use km to predict behavior of solos/corps/alliances

And even more skill and awareness to counter this.

Even to know where someone is buying item x is useful info.

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#19 - 2017-01-30 18:54:46 UTC
Why is intel a bad thing?
Van Doe
#20 - 2017-01-30 18:58:00 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is intel a bad thing?

Intel is a bad thing if you don't know how to counter it.
But if you know good help them relies on intel

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.

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