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Shall my skills train faster if I subscribe?

Author
Kolpo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-12-27 08:50:30 UTC
Shall my skills train faster if I subscribe?

There are still many alpha skill I want to train, I don't need access to the omega skills yet. But shall alpha skills faster if I subscribe?
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-12-27 08:58:41 UTC
Subscribed accounts train with double speed, and all restrictions are removed of course (e.g. cross train other races' ships, PI, cloaking device)

I'm my own NPC alt.

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2016-12-27 09:36:01 UTC
Barring the use of Attribute Implants, Neural Remaps and Skill Training Accelerators, I could have sworn Alpha and Omega Clones trained skills at the same speed.

Now I don't know what to think.



DMC
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#4 - 2016-12-27 10:00:38 UTC
Open your character sheet -> Character tab -> Attributes tab. This will show your current attributes for training.

A base Omega clone will have Intelligence, Perception, Willpower and Memory at 20 and Charisma at 19.

Each skill uses 2 attributes - primary and secondary. You train (primary + 1/2 secondary) skill points per minute.

For most skills with baseline attributes this = 30 SP/minute or 1800 SP/hour. You can increase this to 2700 SP/hour with improved (+5) implants and an attribute remap.

Thus far I haven't been tempted to create an Alpha character but my understanding is the baseline rate for Alphas is 1/2 that - 900 SP/hour. Implants and remaps should work the same way.
Keno Skir
#5 - 2016-12-27 11:18:17 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Barring the use of Attribute Implants, Neural Remaps and Skill Training Accelerators, I could have sworn Alpha and Omega Clones trained skills at the same speed.

Now I don't know what to think.



DMC


Alphas train at 0.5 speed.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2016-12-27 14:11:40 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Barring the use of Attribute Implants, Neural Remaps and Skill Training Accelerators, I could have sworn Alpha and Omega Clones trained skills at the same speed.

Now I don't know what to think.



DMC


Alphas train at 0.5 speed.

No Alphas train at 1x and Omegas train at 2x.

OP if you look just above your training Queue you will see a 1x multiplier all the way to the right and just above the progress bar. If you sub that number changes to 2x and all of your skills will train in half the time.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Memphis Baas
#7 - 2016-12-27 15:01:15 UTC
As it's been said above:

Omega trains 2x as fast as Alpha.

As a newbie (Alpha or Omega), in the beginning, you're training a whole bunch of different skills; you're training some ship skills, some weapon skills, some support skills (armor, shields, engineering, navigation, targeting, etc.), and you're also training various miscellaneous trading, social, industry, mining, etc. So the default attribute mapping of "all attributes equal" is actually a pretty good choice.

Once you get most of the skills injected into your character and trained to about 3 or so (this can take 3 months or so), you CAN min/max the training by splitting it into 2 plans:

1. Train support and industry skills. These mostly use Intelligence and Memory as their primary attributes, so if you remap your attributes to max int/mem, and stick to only support and industry skills, you can increase the training speed by 15% or so.

2. Train weapon and ship skills. Getting to T2 weapons takes a long time because they have high prerequisites, and getting to T2 ships also takes some time, but the ship prerequisites are mostly from the support skills above. In any case, weapon and ship skills mostly use Perception and Willpower as attributes, so you remap to Per/Wil and focus on those skills for a while.

The advantage of this plan is the 15% or so increase in training time; you gain a month or two per year. The disadvantage is that it forces you to stick to the plan even if you might need another skill right now, so it makes the game frustrating. You might see a cool ship or join a corp and they want you to fly a ship they need, and suddenly you find you're in the wrong plan and the OCD kicks in and you stop playing the game because of it.

The 3 bonus remaps that all characters get are there to help out with this plan. Even after you've trained the newbie skills, you'll still need to switch between Int/Mem and Per/Will mappings faster than once-a-year. So you have 3 remaps to do it with. After you've used them up, you have to wait a full year to switch from one mapping to the other, but by that time you're hopefully into training the long-term stuff, like the 1-skill-takes-27-days capital ship skills or weapons or prerequisites.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2016-12-27 16:03:01 UTC
Well, seems everyone is saying Omega Clones train skills twice as fast as Alpha Clones. Guess it's true.

I'm an Omega Clone account training Recon Ships 5 (Rank 6 skill) at 2250 SP's per hour with a full set of +5 Attribute Implants and Neural Remap set at :

Intelligence 27
Perception 25
Willpower 25
Memory 25
Charisma 22

My Alpha Clone account is training Mining Frigate 4 (Rank 2 skill) at 2160 SP's per hour with a full set of +4 Attribute Implants and Neural Remap set at :

Intelligence 26
Perception 24
Willpower 24
Memory 24
Charisma 21

Now I don't know what the basic training time is for each skill rank nor do I know how much time is cut off when using a full set of +5 Attribute Implants compared to using +4 Implants. All I see is my Alpha Clone training skills almost as fast as my Omega Clone.



DMC
Casandra Laur
Bleu Femme Felis
#9 - 2016-12-27 16:09:10 UTC
Kolpo wrote:
Shall my skills train faster if I subscribe?

There are still many alpha skill I want to train, I don't need access to the omega skills yet. But shall alpha skills faster if I subscribe?



All your skills will train faster if you subscribe.

Starting as an Alpha myself, skills were painstakingly slow. To get some specific skills trained to L4s it would have taken me 40 days to train them. So I subscribed. It will now only take 20 days to get to where I wanted to be at. Afterwards, I may go back to Alpha once again.

-Cassy
Kolpo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-12-27 16:35:10 UTC
Thanks for your answers, I just subbed and the time remaining for Hull upgrades IV halved. Did not knew how attributes influences leveling can be useful for later.

Now that I'm omega anyway might I upgrade to the gallente battlecruisers to get more surviability in t2 mission(I now sometimes have to go back to repair). Brutix or Myrmidon seem best, Talos would barely improve my surviability.
Keno Skir
#11 - 2016-12-27 16:43:03 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Barring the use of Attribute Implants, Neural Remaps and Skill Training Accelerators, I could have sworn Alpha and Omega Clones trained skills at the same speed.

Now I don't know what to think.



DMC


Alphas train at 0.5 speed.

No Alphas train at 1x and Omegas train at 2x.

OP if you look just above your training Queue you will see a 1x multiplier all the way to the right and just above the progress bar. If you sub that number changes to 2x and all of your skills will train in half the time.


Not even a little bit, you need to check your facts.

When Alpha expansion hit they created a new training rate which was / is 50% that of a standard subscribed character. Alpha clones received the NEW 50% SLOWER TRAINING SPEED. The existing subbed members retained exactly the same training speed they had before.

Since Alphas are new, and have been assigned a new half speed training rate created just for Alphas which is half that of a subbed player i put it to you that Alphas indeed train at HALF SPEED regardless what CCP have chosen to write above the skill queue to make Alphas feel better about subscribing.

I train at the same rate i always have, an Alpha clone trains half the speed of me. Ergo, i train at normal speed and the new guys train at Half of that speed.

I hope that's clear enough Pirate
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#12 - 2016-12-27 17:37:02 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Well, seems everyone is saying Omega Clones train skills twice as fast as Alpha Clones. Guess it's true.

My Alpha Clone account is training Mining Frigate 4 (Rank 2 skill) at 2160 SP's per hour with a full set of +4 Attribute Implants and Neural Remap set at :

Intelligence 26
Perception 24
Willpower 24
Memory 24
Charisma 21

Now I don't know what the basic training time is for each skill rank nor do I know how much time is cut off when using a full set of +5 Attribute Implants compared to using +4 Implants. All I see is my Alpha Clone training skills almost as fast as my Omega Clone.



DMC


Alpha clones can only train cybernetics 3 - they cannot fit +4 implants. This is likely a lapsed Omega account and you may have discovered a bug!
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2016-12-27 20:55:59 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Barring the use of Attribute Implants, Neural Remaps and Skill Training Accelerators, I could have sworn Alpha and Omega Clones trained skills at the same speed.

Now I don't know what to think.



DMC


Alphas train at 0.5 speed.

No Alphas train at 1x and Omegas train at 2x.

OP if you look just above your training Queue you will see a 1x multiplier all the way to the right and just above the progress bar. If you sub that number changes to 2x and all of your skills will train in half the time.


Not even a little bit, you need to check your facts.

When Alpha expansion hit they created a new training rate which was / is 50% that of a standard subscribed character. Alpha clones received the NEW 50% SLOWER TRAINING SPEED. The existing subbed members retained exactly the same training speed they had before.

Since Alphas are new, and have been assigned a new half speed training rate created just for Alphas which is half that of a subbed player i put it to you that Alphas indeed train at HALF SPEED regardless what CCP have chosen to write above the skill queue to make Alphas feel better about subscribing.

I train at the same rate i always have, an Alpha clone trains half the speed of me. Ergo, i train at normal speed and the new guys train at Half of that speed.

I hope that's clear enough Pirate

This is the NC Q&A. What you and I consider "normal" from our long history of playing this game is irrelevant. Now CCP shows alphas as having a 1x base training rate and omegas as having a 2x base training rate. Nowhere in the game that I have found does it show a 1/2, 50%, nor 0.5x training multiplier. Whatever CCP does behind the scenes or what you and I are used to does nothing to help new players understand the new mechanics.

So while it may be true that in the background CCP does a 0.5x multiplier on alpha clones, what we all see in game is that alphas have 1x and omegas have 2x. Regardless of if CCP does a 0.5x multiplier on everyone first and then doubles omegas or if they leave omegas alone and only do the 0.5x on alphas the training time will wind up the same. So these multipliers become a matter of semantics to a point and I choose to go with the information clearly available in game which is what I felt was the least confusing for new players.

Your perspective is no more or less correct or valid than mine however I feel my way of expressing it is less confusing for new players. I concede that is only my opinion however the "1x" and "2x" that I posted about is information that is clearly displayed in game so I fail to understand where you get off telling me that I "need to check my facts" when my "facts" are clearly factual as can be checked by anyone who has the ability to log into the game on both an alpha and omega account.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2016-12-27 21:07:17 UTC
Kolpo wrote:
Thanks for your answers, I just subbed and the time remaining for Hull upgrades IV halved. Did not knew how attributes influences leveling can be useful for later.

Now that I'm omega anyway might I upgrade to the gallente battlecruisers to get more surviability in t2 mission(I now sometimes have to go back to repair). Brutix or Myrmidon seem best, Talos would barely improve my surviability.

You say "t2" missions I think you meant level 2?

If you are having problems with survivability in level 2 missions in a cruiser then I am going to suggest that your issues have more to do with fit or piloting or both.

Yes a BC will improve your survivability in level 2 missions as well as increase your DPS and since they use the same medium weapons as a cruiser I would say it's not a bad choice. However I am going to recommend that regardless of what you choose to fly into level 2 missions I am going to advise that you play around with your fits and piloting a bit to get a better feel for the mechanics of the game.

For example...

Recently I started flying a Punisher into low level anoms so that I can better advise alphas on what they can expect. I started off by fitting T2 everything and first using beams. Then I switched up to pulses. Now I am back on beams and am going to start dropping some tank for more DPS and range. After I get that worked out I'll drop the T2 mods in favor of stuff that alphas can use. Once I get that worked out I'll use the same fit on an alpha character and maybe have to start the process all over.

My point here is go ahead and do whatever makes it easier for you or improves your ability to have positive isk flowage. Just keep in mind that at some point you'll want to experiment with something more challenging to get a better feel for the game.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Kolpo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2016-12-27 21:53:42 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:


If you are having problems with survivability in level 2 missions in a cruiser then I am going to suggest that your issues have more to do with fit or piloting or both.



Yes their is a lot to learn, just recently discovered that you get less damage when you orbit a target rather then just standing still. But I love the depth of this game :)
Memphis Baas
#16 - 2016-12-27 22:16:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Speed and size affect damage. This is explained in-character by saying that it's similar to how a small fast ship can "dodge" the big battleship guns so they just splash in the water and do minimal damage, unless a direct hit happens. This was coded by CCP specifically to allow small (newbie) ships to survive against big, high-dps (veteran) battleships, up to a point, depending on how good you are at maneuvers.

EVE University guide. Formulas.

If you're in a small fast ship (frigate), it's important to have at least an afterburner going (extra speed), and to not stand still or fly directly towards or away from an enemy (keep your transversal velocity up). The term we use for this type of defense is "signature tanking" or "speed tanking".

Destroyers are frigates (in terms of toughness) but with a significantly bigger size; thus they have a rather large weakness to cruisers / bigger ships. There are level 2 missions where you can survive in a frigate but will die in a destroyer, because of this.

Cruisers are big and bulky, compared to frigates, so you need to rely on an actual tank (armor or shields) with damage resistance modules (hardeners or resistance amplifiers). But still, a cruiser can get some benefit from not standing still, when facing bigger ships (battleships or capital ships).

If you're facing a big ship, let's say battleship, it's important to get close and orbit as fast as possible as close as possible. This will make its guns unable to land a hit on you. HOWEVER, don't fly straight towards it (to get close), try to spiral your way in. And also (it's never that easy), you have to keep in mind the things that a battleship may have, that will completely ruin you:

1. Smartbombs are an area-of-effect explosion that will hit anything, typically at 5km - 10 km range from the ship.

2. Stasis Webifiers will slow your ship down to a crawl, which = death for a frigate. Range is typically 10 - 20 km, some ships have huge range bonuses for these.

2b. A lot of PVP fittings include a MWD instead of an afterburner, for even faster speed. However, a warp scrambler ("scram") will turn off your MWD if you get within its short range (7-14 km, with some ships having longer ranges). So if you get close, you're stuck there.

3. Energy neutralizers will drain your capacitor empty; no capacitor = no afterburner or MWD = no speed. Typical range 10 - 20 km, some ships have huge range bonuses for these.

4. Drones, esp. light scout drones, can hit your frigate just fine, and every big ship has a few of them. Try to take them out, they are a primary threat to you.

EDIT: So how do frigates survive against battleships, with all these counters? Well, ONE frigate will not survive. 20 frigates, though, all these tricks that the battleship has, they're single-target, the guy has to target 1 frigate, drain it, kill it, target another, drain it, kill it... and by the time he does that, the 18 remaining frigates kill him. That's called a frigate wolf-pack fleet. Nasty business. This game is not a solo game.
Memphis Baas
#17 - 2016-12-27 23:05:50 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
All I see is my Alpha Clone training skills almost as fast as my Omega Clone.


CCP's changed the skills interface and are trying to hide the actual points. You can hover over the skill in the character sheet (NOT in the queue) to see the points, but you no longer see the per level points, just the total points required to max out the skill, so it's hard to figure out exactly where you are with a skill by comparing the progress bar with the actual points.

However, if I remember correctly, the points for a rank 1 skill are as follows:

Level 1: 250 points.
Level 2: 1414.
Level 3: 8000.
Level 4: 45255.
Level 5: 256000.

So, training the one single square that Alphas are allowed for the skill Advanced Weapon Upgrades, if I add it to the queue, says it will take 1 hr 45 minutes = 105 minutes. It's a rank 6 skill, so 250 x 6 = 1500 points. Training 1500 points in 105 minutes = 14.3 points/min.

My attributes are 19, 19 on that character. An Omega would get 19 + 9.5 = 28.5 points per minute. An Omega with those attributes would train that skill in 53 minutes.

You should recheck the math for your alpha vs. omega, but queue up a skill where you're starting from the beginning of a level and training it a full level. Because CCP is trying to obscure the actual points if you're partially trained. You can just add it to the end of the queue, so you get an estimated time, and it doesn't have to match your current attribute mappings, because you just reduce it to points per minute to compare.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2016-12-28 15:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Matthias Ancaladron
yes if you subscribe you get the normal training speed that trial accounts and regular accounts used to have.
They slowed it down when they made alphas to artificially limit how fast a character makes maxes out the alpha skills to provide an illusion of an in depth free to play experience.

Only it's just a small number of skills that take way to long to train.
Keno Skir
#19 - 2016-12-28 18:32:47 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Your perspective is no more or less correct or valid than mine however I feel my way of expressing it is less confusing for new players. I concede that is only my opinion however the "1x" and "2x" that I posted about is information that is clearly displayed in game so I fail to understand where you get off telling me that I "need to check my facts" when my "facts" are clearly factual as can be checked by anyone who has the ability to log into the game on both an alpha and omega account.


With respect, my perspective is quite simply correct.

If a car manufacturer make a car that does 50mph, then later they design and build a 2nd car that does 25mph, the first car is not suddenly twice as fast. Now the car manufacturer might advertise that the first car is somehow now the "executive model" that goes twice as fast by adding the context of the new slower car as evidence, but in terms of reality the old car goes at 1.0 speed compared to before the new slower car was made.

Saying Car 1 now does 2.0 speed and car 2 does 1.0 speed does not mean car 1 drives at "double speed", the company are just choosing to pretend the context lays with the new car when in fact it lays with the existing control subject (the original car). This is in complete opposition to normal logical pr

I see where you're coming from saying it's easier for new players to understand, because the whole concept is purely designed to make new players feel less powerless / restricted. But it is none the less incorrect by the rules of logic, which are not open to interpretation thank god.

It's a small thing that isn't really worth this back and forth tbh, but it's a niggle a lot of us felt when the little white lies started popping up in the Alpha campaign :)
Izchadie
Ministerstvo na otbranata
#20 - 2016-12-29 01:38:40 UTC
Keep in mind if you watch EVEMon, it does not recognize alphas or omegas, so it will show the full SP/hour.

For example, one of my ex omegas is still showind 2700 sp/h, but I know it's 1350. The huge training time on x1 skills is prove enough for me (10 days or something).

New alphas can't get to 1350, because they can only plug +3 implants, but if they were omegas with +5s they still work....at 50% Big smile
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