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Semi-automatic trading

Author
RAW23
#1 - 2016-12-02 18:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
I was wondering what people's views were on this.

Quote:

Right now you can 0.01isk any and all market orders you want with your monitor turned off, your keyboard unplugged, etc. All you need is a wireless mouse with a couple of side buttons. And that's 100% legal.
The API is quite something.

...

Long story short, the process goes as such:

Make a CREST developer application off the developers.eveonline.com site. Use a localhost callback URL or somesuch, navigate to https://login.eveonline.com/oauth/authorize/?response_type=code&redirect_uri=http://localhost:8000/&client_id=censored_obviously&scope=remoteClientUI, get yourself an access token and a refresh token. All that good stuff.

Make yourself the ability to open up the market window for any given itemID on whichever market alt you want. https://crest-tq.eveonline.com/characters/charIDhere/ui/openwindow/marketdetails/ and all that.

Make yourself a CREST market order parser that gets prices off crest for whichever and however many items you choose. This has been around forever and I'm sure you can find example code more easily. Whether you choose to use the /all/ endpoint or not depends mostly on the speed of your script.

Make yourself some 1-line clipboard magic that makes it so all you have to do is hit CTRL+V, and the 0.01isking price comes out.

Hook into the XML API so that you can identify which of the CREST market orders are yours. Make sure your program jots down the order details so that it can continue identifying the market orders as yours, even after you've modified them. You only really need to do this whenever you've created an entirely new order, but since you can do it every 30 minutes, why not make sure everything's synchronized.

Set up your market window so that your orders are always in the same place on the screen, regardless of anything else. From talks with other people, this seems to be a difficult step? As far as I've looked, there's one conceptually easy solution and one conceptually annoying solution. Both have their pros and cons.

Pick 3 mouse buttons you're not going to use (such as side1, side2, mousewheel), and remap them to CTRL, V, and ENTER. This was actually the potentially EULA-violating part, but I have petitioned it and was given the all-clear. If there's one thing that might end up being illegal about this process, it's this step, because GM decisions can be overriden.

Combine all the steps above and try it out with one item.

Have your script iterate over all your market orders.

Turn off monitor, unplug keyboard, grab your wireless mouse and work on other stuff.

So in the end it looks something like this:

Script constantly checks CREST to see if you've been outbid. Eventually it finds that yes, you have, and on two items no less.
Script opens the market window for that item.

Script alerts you. This can be a beep coming from your computer speakers, a text message or phone notification, or whatever you may desire. Be creative!

You press RMB -> LMB -> CTRL + V -> Enter with one hand.

Script moves on to next item, alerts you, you press that sequence again, etcetera.


From this reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5g1c3g/new_advanced_trading_and_industry_site_eveexchange/dapc7r6/?context=10000

Apparently it's acceptable under the EULA. The automation of the opening of the market windows in the client is a functionality provided by CREST, so clearly something CCP wants us to be able to do. But I would be interested to know what everyone else thinks about such a setup. To me it seems to be way over the line insofar as the end result is that you don't even need to know what is happening in the client. At the same time, the individual elements all seem to be legitimate.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-12-02 23:58:15 UTC
Don't ask us, ask CCP ... file a ticket.

But the number of times the word "script" is used and the reference to programmable mouse-buttons let me think, this is at least borderline.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Glascia
Kzinti Hegemony
#3 - 2016-12-03 00:19:45 UTC
If the script is checking orders every 5 minutes then it will be 4:40 behind any live person refreshing their screen. This might work against a competitor who updated their orders and left the region, but not someone who wants to fight you.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#4 - 2016-12-03 04:46:26 UTC
Putting aside the question of 'usefulness' of this, I would definitely not use such a method.

I have petitioned CCP many times over the years over various issues regarding EULA, using a third party tool, interpretation of rules, etc, etc, and one thing that became consistently clear is that for many such 'borderline' cases, they can rule it as 'not allowed' any time they want, and take actions, which could include your account getting banned.

One GM may have said it's ok, and that one person who actually petitioned and got that specific response from the GM could probably go back to CCP and say 'please unban my account because your GM gave me this response that's why I did it'. But for the rest of us, who never got such GM comment we could show as a record, we could probably never claim back whatever CCP decides to take away for using any means that they ruled as 'no no'.

I am not allowed to directly give GM answers to my own petitions (I think that is the rule?), but some of the things that I've been told many times is 'if you have to ask if this is within the rules, then we suggest you do not do it'. This seems to be general stance of CCP that is repeated many times across various different issues.

So in theory, and on paper, based on what's written and what the dude claims to have been told by GM, it looks like it can be done and it is ok. But this seems to be such 'borderline' cases that CCP decide to rule out any time, and you could suffer negative consequences for breaking rules you never thought you were breaking.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#5 - 2016-12-03 05:45:35 UTC
I'd say it's over the line and I wouldn't use it myself, but it's up to CCP to decide (and at arbitrary times in the future re-decide) on it.

It might be just the ticket for your market related RSI RAW :)
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#6 - 2016-12-03 15:44:11 UTC
I think one of the reasons Probag is doing it is to point out the ridiculousness of it.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#7 - 2016-12-03 18:04:24 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
To me it seems to be way over the line insofar as the end result is that you don't even need to know what is happening in the client. At the same time, the individual elements all seem to be legitimate.


I completely agree.

Tipa Riot wrote:
But the number of times the word "script" is used and the reference to programmable mouse-buttons let me think, this is at least borderline.


What is with this public opinion that "script" is a bad word?..
Anyway, yeah, I thought the remapping of CTRL, V, and Enter to mouse buttons would 100% be illegal. But I petitioned it. The petition answer said, paraphrased "Huh, that's interesting, I haven't heard that question before. But there's nothing illegal about it. Have fun!". I think that's the wrong answer, but that's what Customer Service said.


Rhivre wrote:
I think one of the reasons Probag is doing it is to point out the ridiculousness of it.


To clarify:
I set all this up. I used it to make a sarcastic video: "Quick guide to 0.01isking in Eve Online". I ended up never putting the video online and posting it to reddit like I originally wanted to.
Then I disconnected the components from one another and unmapped the mouse buttons. Because this set-up, under the current CCP philosophy of no market automation, is frankly absurd. And I don't want to get my Jita alt temp-banned.

In my personal opinion, CCP ought to go one of two ways. Either change their philosophy to "market automation is okay", or stop adding things like these to the API. The CCP devs working on the API are doing amazing work, and it's not their fault at all, but some of the features they're releasing don't make sense in the context of other in-game considerations.
RAW23
#8 - 2016-12-03 18:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
probag Bear wrote:
Either change their philosophy to "market automation is okay", or stop adding things like these to the API. The CCP devs working on the API are doing amazing work, and it's not their fault at all, but some of the features they're releasing don't make sense in the context of other in-game considerations.


This is the crux of it, really. The only element of actual automation in the client here was the bit provided by CCP. So the very thing that makes the whole setup questionable is the thing they built. I guess this could just be a result of one hand not knowing what the other is doing. The functionality seems pretty cool in isolation and the problem only arises when it is hooked up to the kind of out of game automation that has always been acceptable. But allowing the manipulation of the client from outside the game makes the linking of out of game automation with ingame operations pretty much inevitable. I assume it wouldn't be too hard to go a step further and use a little automated analysis in combination with the api to pick the items you will trade as well. So not only would you be able to 0.01 your orders without seeing the values involved but you would also be able to pick your items and set up the trades without ever knowing what items you are trading.

Quote:

Anyway, yeah, I thought the remapping of CTRL, V, and Enter to mouse buttons would 100% be illegal. But I petitioned it. The petition answer said, paraphrased "Huh, that's interesting, I haven't heard that question before. But there's nothing illegal about it. Have fun!". I think that's the wrong answer, but that's what Customer Service said.


I can't see why this bit would be a problem. If you are just mapping a single keyboard key to a single mouse button then there is no issue as there is no benefit gained (except being able to say 'look! no keyboard!'). Each button still requires a single press and you are just moving the buttons from one physical location to another. If you were programming macros that would be different but substitution of single buttons shouldn't be an issue, any more than would be changing the hotkeys on your keyboard.


Bad Bobby wrote:

It might be just the ticket for your market related RSI RAW :)


I won't say that thought didn't cross my mind Blink

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.

probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#9 - 2016-12-03 18:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: probag Bear
RAW23 wrote:
I assume it wouldn't be too hard to go a step further and use a little automated analysis in combination with the api to pick the items you will trade as well. So not only would you be able to 0.01 your orders without seeing the values involved but you would also be able to pick your items and set up the trades without ever knowing what items you are trading.


I didn't have enough time to hook that in as well :/. I have a couple of automated analysis scripts, but they're 2-3 years old because it's been that long since I've played with the market. I was planning to use them, but old code is hard to read, and I didn't want to spend the extra hour.

RAW23 wrote:

I can't see why this bit would be a problem. If you are just mapping a single keyboard key to a single mouse button then there is no issue as there is no benefit gained (except being able to say 'look! no keyboard!'). Each button still requires a single press and you are just moving the buttons from one physical location to another. If you were programming macros that would be different but substitution of single buttons shouldn't be an issue, any more than would be changing the hotkeys on your keyboard.


I see what you're saying. And yes, you're only remapping keys, one-to-one, just to a different physical location. But it's the one thing in this set-up that could be read as technically against the EULA, and if I'm remembering correctly, it's one thing CCP has used to shut down questionable schemes before.

There's also the argument that you don't actually need the remapping step. You can easily just not unplug your keyboard, not leave your room, and actually use CTRL+V+Enter. But the original impetus behind setting this process up was to make a catchy reddit post, and it's a lot more dramatic to film yourself unplugging things from the computer tower, grabbing the mouse, and going to another room altogether.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#10 - 2016-12-04 00:01:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
I just wanted to correct your title, what probag does is bolt action order updating, semi-auto order updating would require TOS/EULA breaking macros. The way most people update their orders is similar to muzzle loading a musket.

Big smile
cryojin
Thoragena Industries Co. Ltd.
#11 - 2016-12-08 11:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: cryojin
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
I just wanted to correct your title, what probag does is bolt action order updating, semi-auto order updating would require TOS/EULA breaking macros. The way most people update their orders is similar to muzzle loading a musket.

Big smile


Pretty much this, I think there are and have been much worse problems plaguing the markets for a long time. Macros, Bots, market manipulation on an alliance scale and many more. Never mind the damage done by large scale RMT which has never been reversed.

There are forums for many of the bots, which I have read and the people go months, even years without being banned. The amount of ISK some make daily is more ISK then I have ever made, plex'd and lost all added together.

I do not agree with this method, but at least user input is needed on some scale.
Dethmourne Silvermane
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-12-09 11:31:00 UTC
Blergh. This makes me wish I had better analysis tools - I'm still just using elinor and dumping orders out via export one by one.

Interested Party (TM)