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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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New player with basic questions about PvP

Author
Adron Pa
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-11-05 13:33:27 UTC
I've been playing WoW since vanilla.

And I've been playing EO since Thursday. (2 days)

To fulfill a mining job, I made my first visit to Losec space. And the second I arrived, I was immediately fired upon by two sources. I don't know it was player ships. Or NPC ships / stations (if there is such a thing). So I immediately warped away.

This is fine. The constant threat of danger is exciting.

But my question is, how do I judge whether I am outgunned or not?

Last night was easy. I just started the game. And there were two of them. And I was in Losec. Chances are I am ALWAYS going to be outgunned for a while. But eventually I won't be. But how will I know?

In WoW, you could always look at the opposing players level. But things are obviously not that simple in EO.

Should I just stay out of Losec for a few weeks? Or a few months? Or years?
Alaric Faelen
El Ultimo Hombre
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-11-05 14:38:13 UTC
Chances are good that it was NPC 'rats' that attacked you. Players normally use warp disruptors/scramblers to prevent you from escaping. You can tell rats from players in your overview as red triangular icons. If you are being targeted there will be a yellow flashing box around the ship in the overview. If that box turns red, it means you are being engaged (shot at, EWAR).

If you are in a mining vessel, assume you are out-gunned.

Players often will 'camp' gates that border high security space. These can be challenging but most of the time you have some ability to escape. Beyond those border crossings, low and null sec tend to be rather barren.

In low sec, illegally engaging another player (piracy) will cause you to lose security status and become flagged as a criminal for a short time. More importantly, automated gate guns will open fire on the perpetrator. These guns can wreck smaller ships, so often people fighting on gates in low sec use larger ships with more tank.

There is no reason to avoid low or null sec. You WILL die at times. Eve is not about never getting killed....just learn something from each loss and apply it next time. We all lose ships all the time, so get out there and enjoy this massive game world.

However, for low and null sec you should learn some more advanced game functions. Primarily the D-Scan and the Map. Both are invaluable tools to survival. Situational awareness is critical.

Map-- can sort by sec status and number of jumps or kills in the last hour or 24 hours. This will tell you if a system is highly trafficked or if there is alot of combat there. A border system with a high number of kills in an hour probably indicates a camp farming easy kills.

D-Scan...learn it, love it. It allows you to know if other ships are nearby. If one appears, you can reduce the scan range to see if it's close. If it's close, you can prepare to escape before it arrives.
Memphis Baas
#3 - 2016-11-05 14:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
This game's focus is PVP; the PVE missions / exploration / encounters aren't as developed as in other MMOs, so they get boring pretty fast.

For PVP, and for determining whether you're "outgunned", you need to learn to recognize the ships and what they can do. You need to build yourself a ships chart, like this one, so that you can see what the enemy can do.

In general, ships in EVE are designed in a rock-paper-scissors style, with certain ships having a very high chance of trumping other ships if they encounter them. Obviously, combat ships will win against mining ships or transport ships, but there are more abilities than just DPS: electronic jamming can prevent damage, remote repairs can heal damage, and there are many different weapons and many different styles of defense (armor, shields, speed, signature, cloaking/avoidance, etc.).

You will be outmatched in the beginning, but the only way to learn is to put yourself in PVP situations and see what happens. Guides will only take you so far.

EVE University has a pretty good general ship guide, and also a ships matrix where you can click each ship and see recommendations and how to fit it properly.


In general:


Tech 1 (base) ships are versatile, all purpose ships good in a multitude of situations. These ships are good when you don't know what the enemy might bring to the fight.

Frigates - rely on small size and speed to survive, typically used for scouting, jamming, and light DPS roles.
Destroyers - kill frigates; bigger size, but not more armor or shields, so they fall easily to bigger ships.
Cruisers - versatile, good DPS, rely on actual tank (armor or shields) for defense, but still have decent mobility
Battlecruisers - attack cruiser-sized platforms, deliver increased DPS while maintaining the relative mobility of cruisers
Battleships - slow bricks designed to deliver heavy DPS while sitting there and tanking it, annoyingly low mobility


Tech 2 ships are advanced, super-specialized versions of the Tech 1 base ships. They maximize one ability, while also gaining huge weaknesses. These ships are good when you know what the enemy will bring, or for fleet situations where you're comfortable with specific roles (DPS, repairs, jamming, scouting, etc.) for different members of the fleet.

Interceptors - extreme speed, very little damage, good scouts and tackle
Cov-ops - ability to fly around cloaked, for scouting and for providing approach vectors on unsuspecting enemy fleets
Interdictors - AoE warp disruption, to lock down enemy fleets
Heavy Assault Cruisers - good DPS on a high-resistance shield/armor ship that retains cruiser mobility
Heavy Interdictor Cruisers - AoE warp disruption with more resilience than interdictors
Recons - ability to fly cloaked and apply extremely long range jamming once they uncloak
Logistics - long range remote repairs (very nice fleet healers, basically)
Command Ships - Fleet Buffs; CCP is in the process of a major revamp for these ships in the next expansion this month
Black Ops - covert battleships that can move entire covert-ops fleets around the map and into enemy territory

Tech 3 ships are advanced ships that have a gimmick of some sort, either a built-in ability that only that ship has, or the capability to switch between various modes of operation. To fly these ships, you'll require a fleet to pre-condition the battle scene so that your ship can then apply its special gimmick to the maximum effect.

Tactical Destroyers - can switch between various modes of operation, gaining different combat bonuses in each mode
Strategic Cruisers - these can be assembled / reassembled in station, like lego's, gaining different bonuses or immunities


Capital Ships. These ships are NOT designed to be solo ships; you need an alt or a friend with a cyno beacon to even move these ships around. These are large, expensive ships that can only be manufactured and deployed in null or lowsec space, and are used in large wars to destroy and conquer stations and outposts and claim territory.

Dreadnoughts - gun ships used to destroy stations or other large ships
Carriers - used to defend or destroy other capital ships
Super-carriers - same as above, taken to 11
Force Auxiliaries - remote repairs (healing) at the capital ship scale
Titans - have a doomsday weapon for massive DPS, and also can move entire fleets around the map


Game Peculiarities:

Ships are designed to function against ships of equal size. A battleship won't fear a frigate's measly DPS, but at the same time it won't really be able to hit it with its big battleship guns; the frigate can orbit closely and get "under the guns" to survive. This makes it possible for wolfpack fleets of frigates to attack and destroy bigger ships. Groups of newbies in cheap ships have a chance against the veterans, in this game. Unlike WoW, where hundreds of level 10 newbies can attack a level 80 player and just die horribly without landing a hit.

You also shouldn't be afraid of combat / PVP; it's a game. It's relatively easy to make ISK in this game; fly cheap ships and go have some fun blowing them up vs. veteran opponents, it's the only way you'll learn, and it's where the fun is.

This game is more like a RTS game where you play a single unit, than a dog-fight game. Ships won't give you tricks up your sleeves (weapons you can activate situationally to save the fight); instead, you pre-fit your ship to deliver just complete carnage in one very specific situation, and you bring friends or pick your fights to control the encounter so it matches your "complete carnage" scenario.

Find a good corp to join, for mentors and fleet buddies.
Robot Robot
What.
#4 - 2016-11-05 15:24:55 UTC
Memphis Baas gave you so much good information that I don't have much to add. But for now, while flying T1 frigates, you can safely assume that you are outgunned against any player ships other than another single T1 frigate. As your (character and player) skills develop, that will stop being the case, but for now it's a good rule.

Even against another T1 frigate you will almost certainly lose your first few (or few dozen) fights, but you learn in this game by dying.

Definitely don't stay out of low-sec though. One of the biggest mistakes people make in this game is deciding to stay in high sec until their skills are good enough to win fights. But the truth is that, by staying in high sec, you NEVER develop the player skills to win fights.

Also, start fitting a warp disruptor or warp scrambler to your ship. You can basically never win a PVP fight without one, because if it's not going your opponent's way, they can just warp off.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#5 - 2016-11-05 15:42:56 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
This game's focus is PVP; the PVE missions / exploration / encounters aren't as developed as in other MMOs, so they get boring pretty fast.


Everything Memphis said was spot on, I just want to emphasize this bit. Anyone coming from a Theme park MMO is going to try to apply the lessons learned in those MMOs to EvE and it is a dead-end.

Most MMOs Devs create content and players play that content. In EvE Devs create tools and most dev time is spent making sure those tools are balanced and remain useful, avoiding or removing power creep. So in theme park games, those rewards you get from doing tutorial quests are quickly discarded for "better" weapons or armor. In EvE a player can choose to specialize in frigates for years of game time and still be a valued member of any alliance.

This is cool, this is great, but it has a downside. EvE devs do NOT spend a lot of time developing PVE content. It's there, but it can be a trap for an unsuspecting Theme park player who has been trained to consider the PvE as the "Content" and the PvP as the "Fluff." EvE uses PvE as "Fluff" and PvP as the "Content." PvE is really just a means of generating income. It is not designed to entertain as in Theme park games, and is deliberately repetative where Theme park PvE attempts to be original.
PvE is designed to increase interaction with other players, either positive (cooperative) or negative (antagonistic). Devs have pretty much stated in Fanfest that they don't introduce a new mechanic or tool unless they have a pretty good idea that it will lead to more ships being blown up.

So those asteroids, they are content CREATORS. They are there to create an excuse for ships to be blown up. Missions, exploration, incursions, PI, yup, all there to give other ships an opportunity to blow up your ships. The isk and other rewards are there to encourage you to participate despite the risks. Think of EvE PvE as "dailies" boring and repetitive, but they provide a benefit worth the repetitiveness.

Players are Content in EvE. Never forget this and you will go far.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Memphis Baas
#6 - 2016-11-05 15:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Combat in this game has a tendency to happen where there are people: around gates, stations, in asteroid belts. If you create a location bookmark by warping between two planets and clicking the "create bookmark" button mid-warp, likely there won't be anyone there and you'll be safe. We call this a safespot. But you'll only be safe for a while; others can use scanner probes to find you and warp to you in as little as 30 seconds.

The NPCs have generic names (Guristas Commander); players have actual names (Adron Pa, flying a Probe frigate). NPCs may loiter around gates, asteroid belts, etc., and they'll attack you if they're hostile, but in general they just do DPS and aren't too concerned with jamming, warp disruption, or podding your escape pod. You can just warp away to escape.

Players, on the other hand, will be very organized in a gate camp: they'll have scouts in the previous solar systems to see you approach and scan your ship loadout, they'll have interceptors in the gate camp to lock you and de-cloak you, they'll have heavy DPS ships to take you out, and spare transport ships to loot your wreck and grab any valuables. A gate camp is, first of all, a trap, and as such it's very hard to escape it, because they've had time to prepare and you're walking into it surprised. And second, a gate camp is an organized fleet of many players attacking you, who are solo; and it's very difficult to win fights that are 1 vs. many.

High-sec is more like a newbie starter zone; it's very crowded, the resources are few, and the Concord police punishes attackers according to a complex set of rules of engagement.

Low-sec does not have Concord, resulting in much more aggression and PVP, and it also doesn't have extreme riches, so as a result low-sec is where a lot of PVP'ers and pirates roam, looking for easy prey, except that the "easy prey" doesn't have much reason to go there.

Null-sec has no rules for combat, anyone can attack anyone else. Groups of players (alliances) have taken over this space and have created their own communities, with their own roaming defending fleets and rules of conduct. The space is pretty rich in resources, and can be very safe, depending on how diligent the locals are at defending it. There are periodic wars of conquest and home defense, involving large capital ship fleets.

Wormhole-space is a more recent addition; it has no rules, like null, but the wormholes make it difficult to bring in heavy ships or have reliable supply chains, so as a result the fights are smaller scale - dozens of ships on each side, rather than hundreds. With the recent introduction of player citadel stations, wormhole space is being colonized to be a lot more like null - safe for the locals, dangerous for intruders.

The tutorial for how to fit your ships is very large / complex. In general, you want to sharpen your ship's purpose or designated role, and have enough speed/mobility or jamming/utility to control the fight to suit your weapons and your ship's purpose.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#7 - 2016-11-05 22:13:44 UTC
Day one Newbros are legitimately useful in PvP right out of the box.
Legitimately dangerous as soon as they realize this.

The only thing missing is knowledge.

OK , friends Never hurt the situation granted.
I've seen packs of newbros Savagely maul gangs of veterans.

Best advice I can give you , Get out there and make some friends that PvP ,
this may result in you getting shot in the face a couple of times but that's OK,
it means you found people that PvP, now befriend them!

I know that might seem stupid and counter intuitive but tbh ,
most of the PvP lads I've ever known are maaaad chilled out and love plucky newbros who can take a knock or two.
Seriously, go try it, provided you don't fly off the handle and start crying you should be making friends quickly.

Ask if you can tag along and be tackle would be a popular question.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2016-11-05 22:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Quote:
I've seen packs of newbros Savagely maul gangs of veterans.

Confirming.

A gang of 20 Tech 1, ****-fit Destroyers warped in on my very seasoned 7 man Tech 3 Destroyer gang.

We killed about half of them, but lost two of our own.
In terms of value, the newbies lost WAY less than we did (12 million versus 150 million).

Had the newbies been able to hold the field against us (which they could have) they would have had one hell of a payday.


On a separate note: never drink 32 oz of long island ice tea in one sitting... I am chain smoking writing tjism
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#9 - 2016-11-05 23:02:27 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

On a separate note: never drink 32 oz of long island ice tea in one sitting... I am chain smoking writing tjism


Silly me, and I thought Drunken Roams were a thing. Just fit a catheter and a drinking helmet and you're good to go.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#10 - 2016-11-05 23:53:58 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

On a separate note: never drink 32 oz of long island ice tea in one sitting... I am chain smoking writing tjism


Silly me, and I thought Drunken Roams were a thing. Just fit a catheter and a drinking helmet and you're good to go.

they are, this is why newbros are dangerous Blink
Memphis Baas
#11 - 2016-11-06 14:06:52 UTC
This game doesn't have a "progression" of ships, like other MMO's have gear progression where level 30 gear becomes useless at level 40. Even the most basic T1 frigate can function pretty close to advanced T2 or T3 ships intended for the same role, if you train your skills and install high-grade modules and weapons on the frigate.

All ships are used; you will definitely see veterans flying T1 ships, for a variety of reasons. One of the biggest reasons that you don't see in other games is "cheap ships"; 20 people in T1 frigates that cost 1 million each vs. a 60 million battlecruiser = win for the 20, even if most of them die when taking out that bigger ship.

Join one of the large newbie-recruiting groups, Pandemic Horde, Karma Fleet, Brave Newbies, etc., if you want to experience this.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-11-06 16:02:54 UTC
My first MMO was WoW. I started in Early BC. Eve was my second, I came here in 2009. I've tried some other MMOs but none have lasted more than a few weeks.

You seem to be catching on much faster than I did so I don't want to make it seem like you are doomed to become me. However I'd like to pass along my experience so that you can hopefully have a shorter adjustment period.

I tried playing this game as if it were WoW and I had a very rough go at it for my first six months or so, maybe longer I don't exactly recall. However once I learned to let go of pretty much everything that I learned in WoW this game got much easier.

As other's have stated this is not a progression game in any sense. You are not looking to get higher level or get a better gear score. Players who have been playing this game for years still fly tech 1 frigates that are cheaply fit.

This is a game about match ups and counters. With the right set up a small group of players can take out a much much larger force. There is no way for you to know for sure when you are out-gunned or not in this game for a lot of reasons but if you want to know when the odds seem to be in your favor or not it will require you knowing what all the other ships are capable of, how they are typically fit and how they are typically flown.

Also worth noting is that since most players are trying to do what you are ( meaning trying to figure out if they are likely to win or not ) a common tactic is baiting. Meaning playing as if you were a lame duck to get your opponent to commit to combat only to have your buddies jump through the gate or wormhole or whatever to deliver surprise butt sex.

Keep in mind there is no structured PvP in this game. No queueable content. No instanced content. Everything that you can do others can do with you, invited or not.

Also if you can think of your ships more like a consumable item like ammo rather than something that you are trying to hang onto, then you will probably be doing much better in PvP.

Keep in mind that probably the most followed statistic for determining success in PvP is isk lost versus isk destroyed. Doing more with less is typically the goal.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Taurean Eltanin
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#13 - 2016-11-07 10:49:44 UTC
Quote:
Keep in mind that probably the most followed statistic for determining success in PvP is isk lost versus isk destroyed. Doing more with less is typically the goal.


This.

Anyone can blap a t1 frigate in a faction cruiser; it takes a skilled pilot to take out a faction cruiser in a T1 frigate.

If you are getting into pvp, you may find my blog useful (see sig). While the fits from the earlier posts are out of date, it is a pretty good record of my efforts to become 'good' at pvp. I try my best to be very transparent about my losses; ideally, other people learn from my mistakes so that they can make fewer of their own.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
#14 - 2016-11-07 17:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikea Tiber
There is a lot of fairly useful info here. Compared to a treadmill like wow, you will be amazed at how the ships and modules available to you right now will continue to be useful throughout your whole career in our sandbox. There isn't a leveling vs endgame phase to eve; so the only way to get actual pvp experience is to go out and lose hulls that you can afford.

The importance of flying with a fleet can't be understated. Whenever you load your pod into another hull, remember "friendship is the best ship," so find yourself a good corperation and make some friends, lose some t1 tackle frigates. Pretty soon you will have a pretty good idea of the combat capabilities of common ships, and how different hulls can be used with fitting and engagement doctrines to give your gang a better chance at blowing up a wide range of targets.

Use the search function to find "Feyd's bumfinger prevention pack" it has got a lot of good info for newbros.

my other nano is a polycarb

Kitsa
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#15 - 2016-11-10 19:18:23 UTC
Adron Pa wrote:
I've been playing WoW since vanilla.

And I've been playing EO since Thursday. (2 days)

To fulfill a mining job, I made my first visit to Losec space. And the second I arrived, I was immediately fired upon by two sources. I don't know it was player ships. Or NPC ships / stations (if there is such a thing). So I immediately warped away.

This is fine. The constant threat of danger is exciting.

But my question is, how do I judge whether I am outgunned or not?

Last night was easy. I just started the game. And there were two of them. And I was in Losec. Chances are I am ALWAYS going to be outgunned for a while. But eventually I won't be. But how will I know?

In WoW, you could always look at the opposing players level. But things are obviously not that simple in EO.

Should I just stay out of Losec for a few weeks? Or a few months? Or years?


You will learn from experience what you can and can not kill. it all depends on what you fly and how well you fly it. as well as what you are trying to fight.

for example, a rails fitted moa with pasive tank will be killed by a brawler frig.

pvp takes experience, you can speed up the learning by getting a mentor or joining a corp that does pvp.
Othran
Route One
#16 - 2016-11-18 15:09:58 UTC
Agony ( https://agony-unleashed.com/ ) do PvP classes which may interest you. Several thousand people (me included) have been through those classes so you'd probably find it useful.

The PvP-Basic class is T1 frigates and the class have killed carriers on the roam - three on one roam plus a Rorqual (capital indy) which self-destructed to prevent us getting the killmail Big smile

Never underestimate T1 ships, not since CCP buffed them...
Keno Skir
#17 - 2016-11-18 16:02:26 UTC
Adron Pa wrote:
I've been playing WoW since vanilla.


Here's a cookie, now let that be the last mention of your previous experience as it means exactly nothing here :)

You will know you are outgunned because eventually you will have enough combat EXPERIENCE to make that call. There is no such thing as a higher or lower level player or ship in EvE. A young player in a frigate can waste an older player in a battleship if they have the right strategy, and that doesn't come from SP but from real skills learned in game.

Try to think of EvE as a nice break from hand holding theme park MMO's. Here what separates us more than our skillpoints is our actual skill. It may seem hard to believe from the bottom of the SP totum but i speak the truth Pirate

Get in touch by EvE mail if you like OP.