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[Ascension] Tactical Destroyer and Small Artillery balance updates

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C C P Alliance
#1 - 2016-10-26 14:31:47 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hello folks!

This thread will cover the upcoming changes to Tactical Destroyers in Ascension and the associated change to Small Artillery powergrid requirements.

I want to start by giving a shout-out to the members of the Tactical Destroyers focus group that has been very helpful in planning these changes. This focus group consists of a combination of volunteers collected from an open call for applications (on the forums) and any CSM members that wished to join in. If you're not familiar with the CCP focus group program, all the logs of our discussions with the focus groups can be found at https://focusgrouplogs.tech.ccp.is/ for full transparency.
Focus group member Suitonia has published some excellent articles about his experience with the focus group so far here and here.

To go along with these changes we are also making an adjustment to the powergrid requirements of Small Artillery weapons. This is paired with a reduction in powergrid for the Svipul, so the end result is that arty Svipuls will be about as hard to fit as today, autocannon Svipuls will get tighter fittings, and all non-Svipul small arty ships will get easier fittings.
  • All Small Artillery: -2 PWG


As for the Tactical Destroyers themselves, here's a summary of the changes:

Adding a damage bonus to sharpshooter mode and reducing other damage bonuses to compensate:
This is intended to encourage more mode switching and help create more room for high-skill T3D pilots to really shine, while generally reducing the overall powerlevel a bit. While running Defensive or Propulsion mode all four ships will do noticeably less damage than the current baseline. While in Sharpshooter mode the Hecate and Jackdaw damage will go up a bit, and the Svipul and Confessor will drop a tad.

Removing the sharpshooter scan resolution bonus, adding a new Dampener and Weapon Disruptor resistance bonus in its place:
This is primarily intended to reduce the power of instalocking T3Ds, while enhancing the Sharpshooter mode's strengths against hostile electronic warfare.

Replacing the Confessor and Svipul propulsion mode base speed bonuses with a AB/MWD speed boost bonus:
This change makes MWD Confessors and Svipuls more vulnerable to scrambling and makes their Propulsion mode a bit more situational. Suitonia wrote up a very good article about his view on this change here.

Reducing the PWG requirements of small artillery weapons, and reducing the PWG on the Svipul:
In the context of T3Ds, this primarily helps reduce the power of autocannon Svipuls since they no longer need to have so much excess powergrid to be able to fit artillery. Having a fair bit of PWG free when using autocannons is a normal and intended Minmatar strength, but it can become a problem when it goes too far (and this was one of those times).

Moving a midslot to a lowslot on the Jackdaw.
This is bound to be a fairly controversial change, and it was the last one added to the plan for this expansion. The intention here is to generally buff the Jackdaw by opening up more options for damage and mobility through the lowslot, while reducing some of the very extreme tanks. I'm very interested in hearing what the community thinks about this proposal, so please let us know if you have an opinion on either side.

Some speed, mass, hitpoint and signature tweaks:
These changes generally represent a moderate nerf for the Svipul, a small nerf for the Confessor and small buffs for the Jackdaw and Hecate.


And here are the proposed ship stats and bonuses in full:

CONFESSOR
Amarr Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (Was 10% per level)
10% reduction in Small Energy Turret capacitor use
5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules
Role Bonus:
33% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (Was 50%)
95% reduction in Scan Probe Launcher CPU requirements

Additional bonuses are available when one of three Tactical Destroyer Modes are active. Modes may be changed no more than once every 10 seconds.
Defense Mode:
33.3% bonus to all armor resistances while Defense Mode is enabled
33.3% reduction in ship signature radius while Defense Mode is enabled
Propulsion Mode:
66.6% bonus to Afterburner and Microwarpdrive speed boost while Propulsion Mode is enabled (Was base speed increase)
33.3% bonus to ship inertia modifier while Propulsion Mode is enabled
Sharpshooter Mode:
66.6% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled
33.3% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (New)
100% bonus to sensor strength and targeting range while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (Previously included scan resolution)
66.6% increased resistances against hostile Sensor Dampeners and Weapon Disruptors while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (New)

Slot layout: 6H, 3M, 5L, 4 turrets
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 62 PWG, 180 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 600 / 800 / 750
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 800 / 320s / 2.5
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 230 (-5) / 3 (+0.3) / 1,800,000 (-200,000) / 4.5 / 7.49s
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 45km / 520 (+195) / 7
Sensor strength: 13 Radar
Signature radius: 65 (+5)
Cargo capacity: 400


SVIPUL
Minmatar Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage (Was 10% per level)
10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret optimal range
5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules
Role Bonus:
33% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage (Was 50%)
95% reduction in Scan Probe Launcher CPU requirements

Additional bonuses are available when one of three Tactical Destroyer Modes are active. Modes may be changed no more than once every 10 seconds.
Defense Mode:
33.3% bonus to all shield and armor resistances while Defense Mode is enabled
66.6% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty while Defense Mode is enabled
Propulsion Mode:
66.6% bonus to Afterburner and Microwarpdrive speed boost while Propulsion Mode is enabled (Was base speed increase)
33.3% bonus to ship inertia modifier while Propulsion Mode is enabled
Sharpshooter Mode:
33.3% bonus to Small Projectile Turret tracking while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled
33.3% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (New)
100% bonus to sensor strength and targeting range while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (Previously included scan resolution)
66.6% increased resistances against hostile Sensor Dampeners and Weapon Disruptors while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (New)

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 4L, 4 turrets, 1 launcher
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 54 (-5) PWG, 205 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 800 / 700 / 550
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 600 / 240s / 2.5
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 220 (-10) / 3.8 (+0.2) / 1,400,000 (-100,000) / 4.5 / 7.38s (-0.11)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km / 530 (+155) / 7
Sensor strength: 11 Ladar
Signature radius: 60 (+10)
Cargo capacity: 430


JACKDAW
Caldari Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
3% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile Launcher rate of fire (Was 5% per level)
15% reduction in Missile Launcher reload time
5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules
Role Bonus:
33% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile damage (Was 50%)
95% reduction in Scan Probe Launcher CPU requirements

Additional bonuses are available when one of three Tactical Destroyer Modes are active. Modes may be changed no more than once every 10 seconds.
Defense Mode:
33.3% bonus to all shield resistances while Defense Mode is enabled
33.3% reduction in ship signature radius while Defense Mode is enabled
Propulsion Mode:
33.3% bonus to max velocity while Propulsion Mode is enabled
66.6% bonus to ship inertia modifier while Propulsion Mode is enabled
Sharpshooter Mode:
66.6% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled
33.3% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile damage while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (New)
100% bonus to sensor strength and targeting range while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (Previously included scan resolution)
66.6% increased resistances against hostile Sensor Dampeners and Weapon Disruptors while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (New)

Slot layout: 6H, 5M (-1), 3L (+1), 5 launchers
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 57 PWG, 270 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 900 / 600 / 600
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 700 / 300s / 2.333
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 180 (+10) / 6 (-0.6) / 1,100,000 (+100,000) / 4.5 / 9.15s
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 500 (+225) / 7
Sensor strength: 15 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 70
Cargo capacity: 450


HECATE
Gallente Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
3% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret rate of fire (Was 5% per level)
7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking speed
5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules
Role Bonus:
33% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Damage (Was 50%)
95% reduction in Scan Probe Launcher CPU requirements

Additional bonuses are available when one of three Tactical Destroyer Modes are active. Modes may be changed no more than once every 10 seconds.
Defense Mode:
33.3% bonus to all armor and hull resistances while Defense Mode is enabled
33.3% reduction to armor repairer duration while Defense Mode is enabled
Propulsion Mode:
66.6% bonus to Microwarpdrive speed boost and reduction in Microwarpdrive capacitor use while Propulsion Mode is enabled
66.6% bonus to ship inertia modifier while Propulsion Mode is enabled
Sharpshooter Mode:
66.6% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled
33.3% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (New)
100% bonus to sensor strength and targeting range while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (Previously included scan resolution)
66.6% increased resistances against hostile Sensor Dampeners and Weapon Disruptors while Sharpshooter Mode is enabled (New)

Slot layout: 6 H, 4 M, 4 L, 5 turrets
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 54 PWG, 230 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650 / 700 / 1000 (+200)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 700 / 280s / 2.5
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 180 (+10) / 6 (-0.5) / 1,050,000 (+70,000) / 4.5 / 8.73s (-0.1)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 510 (+210) / 7
Sensor strength: 14 magnetometric
Signature radius: 70
Cargo capacity: 450

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

C C P Alliance
#2 - 2016-10-26 14:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
All of these changes are on SISI right now for your testing pleasure! Feel free to give them a shot and let us know what you think.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Badfellas Inc.
#3 - 2016-10-26 14:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
very nice! I've seen a lot of complaints from people that the T3D's are not going to have enough damage or tank or speed, seemingly not realizing that these changes are completely necessary by how T3D's are completely outperforming similar ship classes in all these areas at once, thus making plenty of other ships hardly worth using.

Love the changes so far, definitely doesn't seem too heavy handed, while preserving meaningful reasons to switch between modes.
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-10-26 15:04:52 UTC
What is the reasonining behind to keep the effortless instawarp capabilities of Jackdaw and Hecate while removing the mode-switch-trick from the Svipul and Confessor?

I'm my own NPC alt.

The-Culture
#5 - 2016-10-26 15:07:54 UTC
Looks very well thought out.
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-10-26 15:09:32 UTC
Good to see that it is being attended to. I think the slot shift in the Jackdaw will be a good one.

Thanks to the people who actually survived all the focus group sessions.

m

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HYDRA RELOADED
#7 - 2016-10-26 15:37:36 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
What is the reasonining behind to keep the effortless instawarp capabilities of Jackdaw and Hecate while removing the mode-switch-trick from the Svipul and Confessor?


The Jackdaw doesn't have sub 2 second align unless you have a 4% Agility Implant, or nano/agility rig, or Geno set.

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#8 - 2016-10-26 15:54:01 UTC
RIP Insta Gate camp Svipul

I will miss this gameplay. Enjoyed it a lot. Especially solo.
#9 - 2016-10-26 15:59:31 UTC
Changes look nice but I'm not sure what to make of the Jackdaw changes, seems like a nerf for an already underpowered ship. I mean, why reduce the Jackdaw damage from 5% down to 3%? Its damage was already terrible compared to the others.
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2016-10-26 16:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
As someone who doesnt fly T3Ds (just kils them), im more excited for small artillery changes. Jag, wolf, slasher, rifter, dram, claw, thrasher and sabre fits are all opened up for a new meta. It will be glorious.

I am happy the svipul got beat down some, will be nice not seeing just T3Ds when i roam.
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-10-26 16:03:47 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
What is the reasonining behind to keep the effortless instawarp capabilities of Jackdaw and Hecate while removing the mode-switch-trick from the Svipul and Confessor?


The Jackdaw doesn't have sub 2 second align unless you have a 4% Agility Implant, or nano/agility rig, or Geno set.

Erm ... a single T1 poly rig makes it instawarp. Don't think this is a big sacrifice.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2016-10-26 16:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: TrouserDeagle
I still think the hecate will be kind of trashy and awkward after this. I think its problem is it's only competitive solo. it can't make a buffer tank that benefits from logi or that can have a fight and then not go back to station after. it's limited to 1 type of prop mod (I guess I'd be more into this if the pointless cap usage bonus was swapped to something fun like mwd overheat amount). and again we have this awkward thing with an optimal range bonus for blasters. if I'm loading null or void, it's only affecting half of my range, and if I'm loading antimatter, it's only affecting a quarter of my range. I was hoping with the 'generic' range bonuses on battlecruisers we'd be past this

svipul confessor still have quite a bit more base speed than jackdaw hecate, why?

I think 66% resistance to ewar is crazy high. kind of like what capitals get, it basically means you're ewar immune, but ewar people can still get on your lossmail

I was really hoping for some kind of tank mode nerf to fix destroyers with 26k ehp all in regenerating shields with huge resists

the rest is ok I guess. that arty grid change is really odd. we're already playing long range guns online, why more buffs?


edit:
I was also hoping to see the massive difference in gun overheat be addressed. svipul confessor can overheat guns for about twice as long as hecate jackdaw. 5% rof down to 3% rof will only close the gap a tiny bit. swapping that 33% damage role bonus on svipul confessor to 25% rof would be neat, and also make their alpha with long range guns a bit more reasonable
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2016-10-26 17:09:43 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
that arty grid change is really odd. we're already playing long range guns online, why more buffs?


Because small arty grid was never rebalanced with rest of artillery. Also the grid change to arty was needed to make certain arty svipul fits still viable since svipul is losing grid to help curb those dual MSE or 10mn ac fits. Which were caused by the huge disparity between ac and arty fitting needs.

Also, you dont seem to realize long range small guns were mainly lasers, rails and missiles. Very few minny frigate/dessies could fit arty in any viable pvp fit (minus svipul). Theyve been behind the curve for awhile. Now, the jag, wolf, rifter, slasher, claw, dram, sabre and thrasher have wiggle room for new fits/meta.
Caldari State
#14 - 2016-10-26 17:15:06 UTC
You're giving the jackdaw another low, but no CPU to go with it?
#15 - 2016-10-26 17:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Darrien
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You're giving the jackdaw another low, but no CPU to go with it?


No they're moving a mid slot to a low slot.
Shadow Cartel
#16 - 2016-10-26 17:18:37 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
that arty grid change is really odd. we're already playing long range guns online, why more buffs?


Because small arty grid was never rebalanced with rest of artillery. Also the grid change to arty was needed to make certain arty svipul fits still viable since svipul is losing grid to help curb those dual MSE or 10mn ac fits. Which were caused by the huge disparity between ac and arty fitting needs.

Also, you dont seem to realize long range small guns were mainly lasers, rails and missiles. Very few minny frigate/dessies could fit arty in any viable pvp fit (minus svipul). Theyve been behind the curve for awhile. Now, the jag, wolf, rifter, slasher, claw, dram, sabre and thrasher have wiggle room for new fits/meta.


double mse svipul will only need to lose 1 of its 3 gyros or 1 of its 3 tank rigs

and yeah, even more scram kiters. even on ships that are really obviously supposed to fit autocannons. joy :(
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2016-10-26 18:05:21 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
that arty grid change is really odd. we're already playing long range guns online, why more buffs?


Because small arty grid was never rebalanced with rest of artillery. Also the grid change to arty was needed to make certain arty svipul fits still viable since svipul is losing grid to help curb those dual MSE or 10mn ac fits. Which were caused by the huge disparity between ac and arty fitting needs.

Also, you dont seem to realize long range small guns were mainly lasers, rails and missiles. Very few minny frigate/dessies could fit arty in any viable pvp fit (minus svipul). Theyve been behind the curve for awhile. Now, the jag, wolf, rifter, slasher, claw, dram, sabre and thrasher have wiggle room for new fits/meta.


double mse svipul will only need to lose 1 of its 3 gyros or 1 of its 3 tank rigs

and yeah, even more scram kiters. even on ships that are really obviously supposed to fit autocannons. joy :(


Still an improvement, plus it loses dps unless in sharpshooter mode.

Since when have minmatar ever been an in your face brawling faction? Acs are mid range weapons, blasters are close range. Rifters scram kite (albeit terribly) already with acs. As do arty thrashers (that arent instalock fit). Jag is meant to scram kite. Wolf is arguably an in your face brawler, just has a poor slot layout.

The great thing about EVE is that no ship is "supposed" to fit anything, its all up to what the person wants to fly. Minny ships arent known to be robust to throw themselves into the guns of your hecate. So range control is kind of their thing.
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2016-10-26 18:31:11 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Since when have minmatar ever been an in your face brawling faction? Acs are mid range weapons, blasters are close range. Rifters scram kite (albeit terribly) already with acs. As do arty thrashers (that arent instalock fit). Jag is meant to scram kite. Wolf is arguably an in your face brawler, just has a poor slot layout.

The great thing about EVE is that no ship is "supposed" to fit anything, its all up to what the person wants to fly. Minny ships arent known to be robust to throw themselves into the guns of your hecate. So range control is kind of their thing.


we're already playing scram kiting, kiting and alpha -online. I thought people would like to not see more of it

many ships have particular leanings, determined by their bonuses and attributes. at least some of the ships you mentioned should be able to do well with autocannons, but don't. an artillery fitting buff is no good there. saying small autos are meant to scram kite is kind of silly tbh. yes you'll scram kite against blasters, but you will not scram kite against rails or rockets. they've just been a bit left behind by all the power creep
Tactical-Retreat
#19 - 2016-10-26 19:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
I like these changes... Except for the Jackdaw. It really didn't need a DPS nerf outside of sharpshooter mode.

If it's going to be less tanky and forced to stay outside of defense/propulsion mode to do decent damages, then at the very least its anemic damage outside of sharpshooter mode should have been kept identical. The Jackdaw is already the slowest, weakest, 'awkwardest' T3D... Not cool.

For some reason, it also lacks an utility high.

I'm not saying that the Jackdaw is worthless, its agility and reload time especially make it very "comfortable" and somewhat fun to fly... But the illusion doesn't last long, as it is clearly outclassed by other T3Ds when it comes to fighting stuff. Which is what these ships are all about.

Again, it would be much more acceptable if this ship did not see a DPS nerf outside of sharpshooter mode. This simple change would already go a long way, and going in sharpshooter mode to do additional damages would be indeed a good tradeof to have, instead of a straight out dps buff.

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#20 - 2016-10-26 20:42:47 UTC
Erik Kalkoken wrote:
RIP Insta Gate camp Svipul

I will miss this gameplay. Enjoyed it a lot. Especially solo.


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