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Spying is like cancer (just venting my opinion).

Author
InterStellar Architect
InterStellar Architects Corporation
#1 - 2016-09-30 17:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: InterStellar Architect
I've been playing Eve for over 5 years and I like the game. But there is a certain aspect of the game that I've developed a hatred towards - that's meta gaming.

I've participated in fleet fights where the fight did not happen because of spies.

Imagine a bunch of guys sitting down at a table playing poker. There are spectators in the background watching, and each competitor has a spy in the spectator area, reporting which cards the opponent has. This is like a perfect analogy to spies in Eve. Nobody would watch or be interested in the world poker tournament if this happened.

Now I am not sure why the spies do it, perhaps because they want to feel important, or maybe for certain ISK incentives.

In Entropia Universe, I read each player can only have one account/character, and if you have more than one character that's a ban-able offense. This would fix the Spy problem, but Eve Online will never be like that because the game is based on pure sandbox. And so many people have multiple accounts already (I have 5 accounts myself).

Eve Online is the only game that I know of, where people involved in alliance / corporation leadership are so uptight about what they say, because they are worried about leaking intel. Basically everyone can be a potential spy, until they are proven not. And even when they are proven not, they can still be a spy.

So my attitude towards all of this is: hey this is a fricking game, don't you get enough of this crap in real life?

Anyway, just I'm just venting about the certain aspect of this game that I hate, anybody feel the same way?
Paranoid Loyd
#2 - 2016-09-30 18:37:27 UTC
Entropia Universe is built to allow RMT, it would not work if you could have more than one account, there is a huge difference.

The meta game is all that keeps the game fresh. You might think you don't like it but you would have become bored long ago without it.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3 - 2016-09-30 18:39:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
InterStellar Architect wrote:
I've been playing Eve for over 5 years and I like the game. But there is a certain aspect of the game that I've developed a hatred towards - that's meta gaming.

I've participated in fleet fights where the fight did not happen because of spies.

Imagine a bunch of guys sitting down at a table playing poker. There are spectators in the background watching, and each competitor has a spy in the spectator area, reporting which cards the opponent has. This is like a perfect analogy to spies in Eve. Nobody would watch or be interested in the world poker tournament if this happened.

Now I am not sure why the spies do it, perhaps because they want to feel important, or maybe for certain ISK incentives.

In Entropia Universe, I read each player can only have one account/character, and if you have more than one character that's a ban-able offense. This would fix the Spy problem, but Eve Online will never be like that because the game is based on pure sandbox. And so many people have multiple accounts already (I have 5 accounts myself).

Eve Online is the only game that I know of, where people involved in alliance / corporation leadership are so uptight about what they say, because they are worried about leaking intel. Basically everyone can be a potential spy, until they are proven not. And even when they are proven not, they can still be a spy.

So my attitude towards all of this is: hey this is a fricking game, don't you get enough of this crap in real life?

Anyway, just I'm just venting about the certain aspect of this game that I hate, anybody feel the same way?


Nope. what you are describing is one of the things that adds value to the game. Epic events have come to pass in EVE (and make real world news) because of spying. Without spying, EVE wouldn't be EVE, because not knowing how is a spy (or who may turn coat) is a part of the 'tension' of the game. That 'tension' is important.

It's like saying "wouldn't the game be better if you could never lose a ship". No it wouldn't because being able to lose a ship is the only thing that gives the ship any emotional value. Likewise, having to be careful about what you say/mail and having to maintain a low intensity but 'always on' suspicion makes succeeding in what you are doing even sweeter.

Besides all of that, even getting rid of alts would not elminate spying, it would jsut shift it to real people who can be bought rather than alts. In fact, it might even encourage the use of real life money (which can't be tracked in game) to buy people to spy. Your dislike of spying probably keeps you from considering the actual costs of eliminating it (which is natural, when people dislike something it's hard for them to understand how it could be beneficial).
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#4 - 2016-09-30 18:43:31 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Entropia Universe is built to allow RMT, it would not work if you could have more than one account, there is a huge difference.

The meta game is all that keeps the game fresh. You might think you don't like it but you would have become bored long ago without it.


Related sidenote: This is what happens to people who leave the game because they can never be totally safe even in high sec. They rage quit loudly and go play some other MMO that doesn't have non-consensual pvp....and get bored really really quick because they are totally safe in that game... They didn't realize that the constant danger while playing EVE made their game experience more valuable, and so they come right back to EVE grumbling the whole way at the unfairness of it all Twisted
InterStellar Architect
InterStellar Architects Corporation
#5 - 2016-09-30 19:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: InterStellar Architect
Jenn aSide wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Entropia Universe is built to allow RMT, it would not work if you could have more than one account, there is a huge difference.

The meta game is all that keeps the game fresh. You might think you don't like it but you would have become bored long ago without it.


Related sidenote: This is what happens to people who leave the game because they can never be totally safe even in high sec. They rage quit loudly and go play some other MMO that doesn't have non-consensual pvp....and get bored really really quick because they are totally safe in that game... They didn't realize that the constant danger while playing EVE made their game experience more valuable, and so they come right back to EVE grumbling the whole way at the unfairness of it all Twisted


Related Sidenote: I've been playing Eve for over five years. I have assets worth over 2 tril, and I will not lose any sleep if I lose a ship worth 100 bil. Or even if I somehow lose my entire wealth (no you can't have my stuff).

This is more like a bittervet rant about a certain aspect of the game that I hate, after playing it for so many years. It is not an illogical rant, because I pointed out Eve Online is a great game, but this is just a certain aspect that I hate.
Lasisha Mishi
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2016-09-30 19:15:27 UTC
InterStellar Architect wrote:
I've been playing Eve for over 5 years and I like the game. But there is a certain aspect of the game that I've developed a hatred towards - that's meta gaming.

I've participated in fleet fights where the fight did not happen because of spies.

Imagine a bunch of guys sitting down at a table playing poker. There are spectators in the background watching, and each competitor has a spy in the spectator area, reporting which cards the opponent has. This is like a perfect analogy to spies in Eve. Nobody would watch or be interested in the world poker tournament if this happened.

Now I am not sure why the spies do it, perhaps because they want to feel important, or maybe for certain ISK incentives.

In Entropia Universe, I read each player can only have one account/character, and if you have more than one character that's a ban-able offense. This would fix the Spy problem, but Eve Online will never be like that because the game is based on pure sandbox. And so many people have multiple accounts already (I have 5 accounts myself).

Eve Online is the only game that I know of, where people involved in alliance / corporation leadership are so uptight about what they say, because they are worried about leaking intel. Basically everyone can be a potential spy, until they are proven not. And even when they are proven not, they can still be a spy.

So my attitude towards all of this is: hey this is a fricking game, don't you get enough of this crap in real life?

Anyway, just I'm just venting about the certain aspect of this game that I hate, anybody feel the same way?

sounds like your issue is less with spies

and more with scouts, sentries, or patrols.


you being mad that a fight didn't happen because the scout,sentry, or patrol saw your fleet incoming, and alerted their alliance.



as for the leaked intel, it doesn't have to be a spy to do that. it can be someone who is mad at how they've been treated in their corp and want revenge. aka backstabber. nothing you can do about that.


as someone whose played alot in World of Tanks, despite being a joke of a game compared to EVE, intel was still valuable. what tanks they bringing, what tactics(if you can get their strategy before hand from people who fought them before, thats an instant win), and who they bringing(skill level)

or even Guild Wars 2's WvW. we'd have "solo" players doing their thing acting like sentries, scouts, or patrols. all to warn of the position of the enemy zerg. and know where is open to strike.






a Spy isn't something you can prevent, it exists in all forms both malicious and innocent(i just happened to be there)
and internal and external
intentional and accidental
traitor and infiltrator.


its part of the thrill.






in EVE, where every ship lost is gone forever, the danger of losing it, an the value of intel is going to be very concerning no matter what.

it doesn't have to be a spy. i'm not taking my ship through a gate without intel of whats beyond. whether thats from asking people who jumped before me, checking zkillboard, or the map for whose docked and undocked, how many have died in past hour and 24 hours.

InterStellar Architect wrote:

So my attitude towards all of this is: hey this is a fricking game, don't you get enough of this crap in real life?

Anyway, just I'm just venting about the certain aspect of this game that I hate, anybody feel the same way?


it is a game aye, but its a game where not knowing can cost you. and if you screw up, you can lose ALOT.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#7 - 2016-09-30 19:24:53 UTC
but isn't that part of the joy of the game? Look I am not a spy in real life. I never will be not would I want to be. It's wrong in my opinion and the risk always out weigh the reward.

However... To try it? To live a life that is different? To try a challenge way outside my comfort zone? To try something so against my norm, it could be fun. Would I probably hate it and the betrayal... Most likely, but well... If just being a nameless mass in a fleet relaying Intel to my real friends... Maybe that would be interesting. Maybe it would be a challenge. Who knows. I'm not apt to do it on this character as why? But to say been there, done that, have the titan killmail to prove it, well... I may never do it, but I can at least see the allure.

And while you say it is just a game, on the other hand, it is just a game so why not? It's not like lives or jail time is on the line. Yes I could be betraying friends or I could just be one of many random brave newbies or hordies with no friends on this side of the fleet but a ton on the other so what have I got to lose?

This is why I never understood the whole "it's just a game, relax and be good" mentity. In real life being a spy seems suicidal, but in a game, it could be fun. It's kind of like dog fighting in jets. I would never do it in real life but if there was a virtual reality where I could, why not?
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#8 - 2016-09-30 19:25:21 UTC
so....

OP hates the fact that he missed few battles because intel of his corp/alliance have found that engaging in that specific battle was not good idea?

or does OP hates the fact that he missed few "battles" where enemy got enought intel on them to know that engaging in head-on battle was suicide?


spies, sentries, scouts:

there is no real war without those means of obtaining inteligence on enemy capabilities, movements etc..
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#9 - 2016-09-30 21:21:50 UTC
What a wild and wreckless change that would be to Eve Online if they suddenly came out and said that starting tomorrow, this is a one account/one character game.

Actually - I would love that Smile Oooo the character immersion and boost to player lore would be so awesome!

And they could expand on walking in stations too right? Since we're dreaming

@lunettelulu7

Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#10 - 2016-09-30 21:49:42 UTC
InterStellar Architect wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Entropia Universe is built to allow RMT, it would not work if you could have more than one account, there is a huge difference.

The meta game is all that keeps the game fresh. You might think you don't like it but you would have become bored long ago without it.


Related sidenote: This is what happens to people who leave the game because they can never be totally safe even in high sec. They rage quit loudly and go play some other MMO that doesn't have non-consensual pvp....and get bored really really quick because they are totally safe in that game... They didn't realize that the constant danger while playing EVE made their game experience more valuable, and so they come right back to EVE grumbling the whole way at the unfairness of it all Twisted


Related Sidenote: I've been playing Eve for over five years. I have assets worth over 2 tril, and I will not lose any sleep if I lose a ship worth 100 bil. Or even if I somehow lose my entire wealth (no you can't have my stuff).

This is more like a bittervet rant about a certain aspect of the game that I hate, after playing it for so many years. It is not an illogical rant, because I pointed out Eve Online is a great game, but this is just a certain aspect that I hate.


So many bollocks in one post.
Memphis Baas
#11 - 2016-09-30 22:07:43 UTC
To use your analogy:

Imagine a bunch of guys sitting around on their couches at home doing nothing. Imagine each guy's buddy / promoter calling them up to tell them to get off the couch and go to this poker event that they found out about, that's gonna be EASY MONEY. How easy? Pretty sure nobody there will play poker better than you.

Poker tournament wouldn't happen without the buddy / promoter / spy. Do you think the players go to the poker tournaments specifically so they can lose? No, they participate because they're lied to; told that this time they've improved enough that they can win. Wouldn't happen without that.

It's a game. 5000 star systems + 2500 wormholes, everyone docks up at the slightest sign of unfavorable odds, or if the other side has 1 more ship in the blob than they do. No fights would happen without the spies.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2016-09-30 23:10:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Jenn aSide wrote:


Nope. what you are describing is one of the things that adds value to the game. Epic events have come to pass in EVE (and make real world news) because of spying. Without spying, EVE wouldn't be EVE, because not knowing how is a spy (or who may turn coat) is a part of the 'tension' of the game. That 'tension' is important.

It's like saying "wouldn't the game be better if you could never lose a ship". No it wouldn't because being able to lose a ship is the only thing that gives the ship any emotional value. Likewise, having to be careful about what you say/mail and having to maintain a low intensity but 'always on' suspicion makes succeeding in what you are doing even sweeter.

Besides all of that, even getting rid of alts would not elminate spying, it would jsut shift it to real people who can be bought rather than alts. In fact, it might even encourage the use of real life money (which can't be tracked in game) to buy people to spy. Your dislike of spying probably keeps you from considering the actual costs of eliminating it (which is natural, when people dislike something it's hard for them to understand how it could be beneficial).

Spying via real people who are bought (Through in game means).
That adds value to the game. That adds real drama.

Deleting all your characters and starting fresh to work your way up and perform an alliance disbanding, that adds value to the game.

Spying through a disconnected Alt account that you created a false facebook profile for to pretend to be a real person, that doesn't add value to the game, that subtracts value.

I'm not against the idea of spying, I am against the level it gets taken to in EVE by the 'serious' spies because that stuff ceases to be just a game and becomes downright fraudulent. And because it is done via alts it's a basically risk free exercise since the person doing it at most loses an alt who's only purpose in life was to spy.
Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#13 - 2016-09-30 23:34:20 UTC
Problem is that nobody wants to lose, people here in the game go on about carebears and how gental and soft they are but then same goes for lots of pvp'ers as how they make sure to have boosts, etc, they call it strategy I call it playing safe, if you are going to do it, do it without the condominium.
Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2016-10-01 00:10:16 UTC
InterStellar Architect wrote:


Related Sidenote: I've been playing Eve for over five years. I have assets worth over 2 tril, and I will not lose any sleep if I lose a ship worth 100 bil. Or even if I somehow lose my entire wealth (no you can't have my stuff).


You want a ******* cookie?

I hate this part of this game - but I'm super ******* rich, so obviously I don't really care about it, I just hate it.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2016-10-01 00:13:03 UTC
Lulu Lunette wrote:
What a wild and wreckless change that would be to Eve Online if they suddenly came out and said that starting tomorrow, this is a one account/one character game.

Actually - I would love that Smile Oooo the character immersion and boost to player lore would be so awesome!

And they could expand on walking in stations too right? Since we're dreaming


And then we could all ride rainbow farting unicorns over to visit Steve.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#16 - 2016-10-01 02:36:42 UTC
InterStellar Architect wrote:
Related Sidenote: I've been playing Eve for over five years. I have assets worth over 2 tril, and I will not lose any sleep if I lose a ship worth 100 bil. Or even if I somehow lose my entire wealth (no you can't have my stuff).





Quote:
Likes received: 16




Money can't buy everything, you know

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Paranoid Loyd
#17 - 2016-10-01 03:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Elenahina wrote:
InterStellar Architect wrote:


Related Sidenote: I've been playing Eve for over five years. I have assets worth over 2 tril, and I will not lose any sleep if I lose a ship worth 100 bil. Or even if I somehow lose my entire wealth (no you can't have my stuff).


You want a ******* cookie?

I hate this part of this game - but I'm super ******* rich, so obviously I don't really care about it, I just hate it.

Thing is there's one or many things in this quote he's lying about, if not he wouldn't be posting on an alt with 0 kills and 0 losses on record.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2016-10-01 03:31:32 UTC
Spies R Gud.

This opinion brought to you by Herr Brokkmeister esq., free of charge no less.
Aiwha
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#19 - 2016-10-01 03:42:39 UTC
Enemy spies are cheating bastards.



Friendly spies are fantastic players who do so much for us.


Such is life.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.

Mike Adoulin
Hell House
Hell Dawn
#20 - 2016-10-01 03:56:42 UTC
InterStellar Architect wrote:
SPAI



Welcome to reality.

It's good practice for IRL, BTW.

Get that promotion at work, for example.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

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