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Dev blog: Clone States – Post Announcement Follow-up

First post
Author
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2016-09-02 15:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
After the big announcement of Clone States, we have a quick follow-up for you.

But before you read the blog, we would like to thank you for the overwhelmingly constructive feedback we have received. Seeing you discussing the consequences, pointing to potential issues, already making plans ... that is wonderful and proves again that the EVE community is the best! Lol

Please check out the dev blog Clone States – Post Announcement Follow-up!

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2016-09-02 15:16:10 UTC
I am glad you aren't pulling the trigger on the red safety lock yet. I originally promoted this idea but have come to the conclusion that red gameplay is one of the unique features of EVE and new players should be allowed to explore it.

A limit on simultaneous alpha clone logins would be good enough. I hope you can manage that.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#3 - 2016-09-02 15:23:20 UTC
Zappity wrote:
A limit on simultaneous alpha clone logins would be good enough. I hope you can manage that.


You cannot control it.
Not even with the player`s IP adress...
Not even with the MAC adress of your network card...

Ripard Teg
Vector Galactic
Shadow Cartel
#4 - 2016-09-02 15:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ripard Teg
Glad to hear that suicide ganking is high up on your concerns list.

Just to be clear, my particular concern in this area is veteran players using their Alpha clones to suicide gank true new players also using either Alpha or Omega clones. You don't need good character skills to do this, just good player skills, which veteran players will have in abundance. Other than ethics, I can't see much reason why every veteran player wouldn't have at least one Alpha clone set aside for this purpose.

As to not using Alpha clones for more serious ganking, CODE has been solving this problem for years now the same way most EVE alliances solve their problems: greater numbers. Look at their freighter kills and you'll find dozens and dozens of people using T1 fits.

For the morons in the room: I am not against suicide ganking. I've participated in it myself. My concern is the game's ecosystem, and that we'll see far more suicide gankers once the barriers to entry are removed with disposable, free Alpha clones.

So please continue to keep it in mind, thanks!

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2016-09-02 15:39:49 UTC
I'm glad to hear that the simultaneous alpha clone login problem is being considered. I suspected that it was actually a technical issue, given that the issue wasn't immediately stricken down in the initial blog. Here's to hoping you can clear that hurdle before release; it's very, very important to restrict. Otherwise, I don't see any significant issues with the proposal currently. Thanks for the followup!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#6 - 2016-09-02 15:43:40 UTC
Here is a possible middle ground on the ganking/safety setting thing:

If your alpha clone has its security status drops too far, you cannot set the safety to red.

This allows new players to try out ganking. But they cannot make a career out of it without large time or ISK expenditures to keep their security status up, or getting a subscription.

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Frozen fanfiction

Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#7 - 2016-09-02 15:49:43 UTC
One concern I have about that write-up on Alpha clones and suicide ganking is that it only goes over freighter ganking, and does so in a very limited aspect.

For one, if Alpha clones can use Meta mods, that's going to up their damage by a fair amount. Based on the comment regarding their use of the Gnosis (which seems to imply that they can use something if the skills allow it), there's no reason to assume that Alpha gankers won't be using meta-fit ships instead of purely T1 / Meta-0 mods.

Secondly, it only addresses freighter ganking. There are many, many more ships in EVE than just freighters. It may take 50+ low-skill ships to gank a freighter, but it would only take 3-5 to gank something much smaller. These may not be the best gankers around, but they'll still be good gankers, especially as there would no longer be the 1+ billion ISK cost to keeping a dedicated account active.

Even CODE talk about how a modern-day ganking char, after the most recent starter skills update, takes only 15 minutes to train (Gallente Destroyer I), and the Alpha chars will be significantly better than than that. No, they won't be as good as a dedicated Omega ganker, but when the price of admission is free, you end up with many more people joining the party.

While I'm not going to advocate either way towards Alpha clones being able or unable to gank, I do caution that the Reddit post on freighter ganking is only telling a single story from the larger narrative.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#8 - 2016-09-02 15:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2016-09-02 15:52:43 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Glad to hear that suicide ganking is high up on your concerns list.

Just to be clear, my particular concern in this area is veteran players using their Alpha clones to suicide gank true new players also using either Alpha or Omega clones. You don't need good character skills to do this, just good player skills, which veteran players will have in abundance. Other than ethics, I can't see much reason why every veteran player wouldn't have at least one Alpha clone set aside for this purpose.

As to not using Alpha clones for more serious ganking, CODE has been solving this problem for years now the same way most EVE alliances solve their problems: greater numbers. Look at their freighter kills and you'll find dozens and dozens of people using T1 fits.

For the morons in the room: I am not against suicide ganking. I've participated in it myself. My concern is the game's ecosystem, and that we'll see far more suicide gankers once the barriers to entry are removed with disposable, free Alpha clones.

So please continue to keep it in mind, thanks!

I don't follow this logic. As a current player, if I want to suicide gank I am going to maximise the effect by using an omega character. I think the real danger here is current players multiboxing alphas to great effect.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Grookshank
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-09-02 15:54:07 UTC
That was a big amount of nothing said :(

Quote:
Probably the clearest point to emerge so far has been a request to limit simultaneous log on for Alphas. The concern here is obviously justified as swarms of free alts could potentially have any number of negative effects on the game. That said, there’s significant complexity here, especially on the technical side. We are exploring options to address this and also consulting our security and customer support team, as most of the negative behavior would depend on multi-plexing or automation, both of which are big no-no's. But, when you guys say you will find ways to break it we believe you, so, we’re looking at our options and will update you when we settle on an approach.

This is not something you need to think about and it is not only about a few aspects of the game. You need to limit it like the trials. You already know how and why, since you are doing it with trial accounts; just implement it.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#11 - 2016-09-02 15:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
Good to see the answers keep coming, or at least acknowledgement of concerns.

My question is can we also use this release to dispose of the neural remap "feature" / "gameplay":

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/50mipa/ccplz_kill_off_attribute_remaps_with_the_new/
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
ChaosTheory.
#12 - 2016-09-02 16:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
From this blog
Quote:
We are exploring options to address this and also consulting our security and customer support team, as most of the negative behavior would depend on multi-plexing or automation, both of which are big no-no's.


This is naive in the extreme (Im sorry to sound harsh, but that whole blog entry is naive, and I'm going to end up book marking it like I did this one). The possible negative behavior we are warning about requires no such thing. Or does CCP not realize that Drone Assist is still a feature of their game?

Do I actually need to build a wall full of ratting Tristans and Vexors and make CCP pay for it?
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
#13 - 2016-09-02 16:06:21 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Just to be clear, my particular concern in this area is veteran players using their Alpha clones to suicide gank true new players also using either Alpha or Omega clones. You don't need good character skills to do this, just good player skills, which veteran players will have in abundance. Other than ethics, I can't see much reason why every veteran player wouldn't have at least one Alpha clone set aside for this purpose.
Why wouldn't these veteran players just use their Omega clones to gank new players? Or a trial account? Or an second Omega account paid for by skill extraction?

Unlimited ganking accounts (and PI, mining, industry and other activities that don't require ongoing training) have been effectively free since skill extraction was introduced earlier this year (actually with the current market you get paid to run those ganking alts). Trial accounts have been able to fly a Catalyst in 8 minutes ever since the starting SP was buffed last year yet there is no evidence that the ganking of new or veteran players has increased at all because of these changes even if you thought that was a bad thing. I don't see why you think a significant number of veterans are going to start gimped Alpha accounts to play the game as highsec criminals when they can already do that now.

Ripard Teg wrote:
As to not using Alpha clones for more serious ganking, CODE has been solving this problem for years now the same way most EVE alliances solve their problems: greater numbers. Look at their freighter kills and you'll find dozens and dozens of people using T1 fits.
Getting more players to engage in the intended criminal gameplay that CCP coded into the game on purpose can only be considered a good thing, especially if they are true new/returning players who are grouping up to make their mark on the universe and form the social bonds that CCP says keep people playing the game. I do agree though that veteran players multiboxing dozens of alt accounts is potentially problematic, not only for highsec ganking, but for many aspects of the game including other forms of PvP (pocket logis, Griffins), PI/manufacturing, information gathering and especially mining. CCP will have to tread carefully to not let multiboxing alpha accounts be worth the trouble to existing veteran players.

But as to highsec ganking, let new players experience all the game has to offer, including playing as a highsec criminal. If ganking really does take off for some reason and highsec denizens can't be safe, CCP can always nerf ganking yet again, or better yet, spend some development time on completely revamping how the highsec crime, war and contraband systems work.
Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2016-09-02 16:09:28 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Good to see the answers keep coming, or at least acknowledgement of concerns.

My question is can we also use this release to dispose of the neural remap "feature" / "gameplay":

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/50mipa/ccplz_kill_off_attribute_remaps_with_the_new/

Yes please. Replace learning implants with boosters that have racial and strength flavours, e.g. "Strong Gallente Cerebral Accelerator" which boosts training speed for a week or two. It fits with the alpha racial lock and we know that the code is already in place from last year's event.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

ArmyOfMe
Know-Nothings.
Magnus Manus
#15 - 2016-09-02 16:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ArmyOfMe
First page again \o/

Oh, and great stuff. I do hope this will help to rejuvenate the playerbase.
Wish it had happend sooner, but i still love this idea.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Katrina Bekers
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2016-09-02 16:38:09 UTC
Think about this wisely. Many eyes began staring back at EVE with this announcement...

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>

Dibble Dabble
Capital Assets Inc
#17 - 2016-09-02 16:43:08 UTC
My corp mates and I quit eve some years ago. This was due to low sp Suicide Alts making life more difficult and the big changes to industry which was the real killer.

However the proposed free accounts have given us some ideas. We probably have several trillion ISK stashed away on our mothballed accounts which can be harvested, invested etc,

We also have some ideas for almost free ***** and giggles fun at the expense of established players / alliances that made life difficult in the past, indeed that would be most of the alliances, Whilst we are few in number we can not take down a freighter we can sure take down the smaller stuff.

With our ISK and the free accounts I suspect we wont be only people to return. T1 Frigs / Cruisers can have a lot of fun in a target rich environment such as empire. We can have as many Alpha accounts as we want, we can train them for next to nothing and our mains can scoop the loot. Recycle them whilst kill rights expire as needed.

Freighters will be safe from us, too much like hard work and we are few in number but if your in empire and your in an alliance we dont like, and that would be most of them, then you best not be on Auto Pilot,

Oh and you bumpers on the gates in NPC Corps, your first, we really dont like you Twisted

Geronimo McVain
EVE University
Ivy League
#18 - 2016-09-02 16:45:11 UTC
HandelsPharmi wrote:
Zappity wrote:
A limit on simultaneous alpha clone logins would be good enough. I hope you can manage that.


You cannot control it.
Not even with the player`s IP adress...
Not even with the MAC adress of your network card...


well, why do you have to control it technically? Maybe you just have to give your creditcard datas (without actual using it) to play Alpha. Or it is bound to your steam account. So you know who ownes the Alpha and so you can prevent him from logging in multiple accounts. You can't totally prevent it but you can make it a lot of hassle to do so.
Solecist Project
#19 - 2016-09-02 16:45:32 UTC
So, will they be able to post outside of NCQA or not?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#20 - 2016-09-02 16:49:21 UTC
I didn't see any reference to the fact that Eve is beginning to be marketed as free to play in the media. It's likely to be marketed the same way on Steam. How do we reconcile the fact that people are going to come in expecting free to play and find that Eve literally supports pay to win "golden ammo" (Scorch, Null, Barrage, etc). How do we reconcile the fact that paying players will do over 2x the DPS in the same ship as alpha players? How do we prevent this from smacking of pay to win, and give them a reasonable enough Eve experience to get them hooked?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

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