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PvE Townhall - 21:00 Eve Time 3rd Sept 2016

First post
Author
Jin'taan
Infinite Violence
Trigger Happy.
#1 - 2016-08-24 17:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin'taan
Hello!

I’m here to announce something that I’ve been teasing for a week or so as I worked out the logistics around getting it to be a feasible thing to do, a general PvE townhall before the first summit of this CSM. It will be held on Saturday the 3rd of September, at 21:00 EvE Time, which should hit the crossover between US & EU TZ’s well enough. Obviously, it’s far from ideal for SEA/RU/AU players, but unfortunately that’s just how the timezones crumble.

The townhall will be held on EVE-University’s Mumble server, and be run as a mixed voice & text QA session, with the CSM and other hosts asking questions about the current state of PvE, people’s thoughts on where the future of it might lead, and in general taking the pulse of PvE focused players and communities. Note that, as always, problems are far better than solutions, and are what we’ll look to build on in this dialogue. Saying that – for example “There isn’t any PvE content for me and 2-3 of my friends to do together” is a lot easier for us to both understand and take to CCP than “There should be missions designed for 3-4 people and they should give x reward and be tied into Y system”.

I will hopefully post a full list of topics/talking points before the event. However, I’d like to specifically say that we intend to focus on the PvE experience, as opposed to ancilliary parts of it, such as ganking or roaming to catch people in null. We will also not be focusing on WH PvE, as I feel that was well covered in Noobman’s own Townhall on the subject of Wormholes specifically. This means that we will be looking at Hisec, Lowsec & Nullsec (Sov and NPC), and all the missions, anomalies, combat sites, incursions and anything in between that comprises the PvE ecosystem.

Thank you all for reading, I hope that we can have a productive discussion on this, and work together to bring as much useful information to the CSM – and through them to CCP – on the subject as possible.

Details on what/where can be seen here!
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-08-24 17:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kaichin
(Cross posting to Reddit as well)

Great news, can I get a place?

Edit: you mean September, right?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2016-08-24 17:35:08 UTC
Sweet, it's on a Saturday.
Jin'taan
Infinite Violence
Trigger Happy.
#4 - 2016-08-24 17:45:24 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:

Great news, can I get a place?


Townhall = Open to everyone :)
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#5 - 2016-08-24 18:38:19 UTC
Thank you for doing this, even though I have my doubts about it's usefulness it's great that CSM members care enough to talk to people. I'll even try to attend and lend any insights, whether they are good or not is up to you all lol.

But generally speaking asking people how they would improve something is fruitless. People say idealized things, but what they actually do is another.

This is why on these and other forums you hear some common PVE requests such as "things need to be more random and procedural" when in reality most people who say that actually seek comfort and predictability in their game play choices (which is why after all these years of CCP trying to add new pve like sleepers and incursion rats and Drifters etc, most of us who do combat pve are still saving the same hapless Damsel, Dreading the same Pirate named Scarlet, and Attacking the same Guristas/Angel/Sansha Havens as we were in 2006/7/8/9).

Some other PVErs will say "give us more group PVE" while ignoring incursions and other current group pve opportunities, and if CCP implements some kind of "Shared Mission Experience" or whatnot, it will end up just being wasted development time because those folks will be right back to solo mission grinding. It's human nature to think big but act small, and if i get a chance to say this at the town hall I will.

CCP can improve PVE maybe add more missions, different anomalies, add a 'random anomalies chance' to the entire EVE universe (though it should be rare, it would be a kick to see people go crazy of a Sanctum that Spawned in high sec lol) bring back things like the old "Pirate Ship Logs" that could serve as escalation content for mission runners and so forth.

But more than seeing any improvements, I hope the CSM advises CCP to not do a Walmart with PVE by trying to do too much or even copy other games.
Ashterothi
Malevelon Roe Industries
#6 - 2016-08-24 19:48:47 UTC
Mynxee
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#7 - 2016-08-24 21:19:35 UTC
This is excellent; I'll be pointing all my Signaleers at it. Thanks!

Lost in space, looking for sigs...

Blog: Cloaky Wanderer

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2016-08-24 23:57:04 UTC
Jin'taan wrote:

The townhall will be held on EVE-University’s Mumble server, and be run as a mixed voice & text QA session, with the CSM and other hosts asking questions about the current state of PvE, people’s thoughts on where the future of it might lead, and in general taking the pulse of PvE focused players and communities.

EVE-University’s Mumble server?

Is this an out of game event?

Ugh



DMC
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2016-08-25 00:27:57 UTC
Hi, and thanks for the round table. Alas, that is the middle of the long weekend here and I will be unable to partake even though I really would love to be in on the action. If it is alright, I will comment all I can in the forum here.

0. Opening Tidbits

During this writeup, I will be focusing on three parts. There will be past experiences, current experiences and what would like to see. Now the latter I will talk mechanics a bit, but that is because mechanics and experience do go hand in hand. "Saying I want more challenge" without how want the challenge could make for a catastrophic bomb.

Before any of that though, would like to comment on Jenn's post because it does make really good points.


Jenn aSide wrote:
This is why on these and other forums you hear some common PVE requests such as "things need to be more random and procedural" when in reality most people who say that actually seek comfort and predictability in their game play choices (which is why after all these years of CCP trying to add new pve like sleepers and incursion rats and Drifters etc, most of us who do combat pve are still saving the same hapless Damsel, Dreading the same Pirate named Scarlet, and Attacking the same Guristas/Angel/Sansha Havens as we were in 2006/7/8/9).


I am one of those people still saving damsels and such because the final experience that is offered in many of the newer pve situations is not one that people who like L4s enjoy. Sleepers? We did like that, but when it became needing to camp wormholes, mission runners like myself and friends did not feel like the logistical challenge. Incursions? That is because the enjoyable experience degraded into a bling yourself out scripted bore. When they launched though? People were all over that and not caring that they lost ships. Damn fun, and the isk was well balanced.

Drifters and burners.... Ugh.... Burners... missions that are 100% meta or you "try" to get enough people to logi chain with frigates and that results in a less engaging and boring experience. Drifters? Same thing. What these both have in common is dull powerboss that limit's a player's alternatives to playstyle. Either or? Only one way to do it or GTFO. The hives are similar to this. The difference is hives WERE enjoyable due to fleet complexity. Lack of runners is most probable due to the high barrier of entry.

Quote:
Some other PVErs will say "give us more group PVE" while ignoring incursions and other current group pve opportunities, and if CCP implements some kind of "Shared Mission Experience" or whatnot, it will end up just being wasted development time because those folks will be right back to solo mission grinding. It's human nature to think big but act small, and if i get a chance to say this at the town hall I will.


Group PVE relies on the ability to replay. In eve, that is either Isk, or unknown. If it is there, people will be enticed to try it. But for it to stay enjoyable, a player wants to retain their individuality in how they play. Yes, some would solo mission grind, but if for similar isk, or even a little bit less, corpies will want to get together for some fun and do something different like fly a ship that needs logi support, or be ewar, or a remote buffer.

Quote:
But more than seeing any improvements, I hope the CSM advises CCP to not do a Walmart with PVE by trying to do too much or even copy other games.


Absolutely and this leads into my thoughts. Eve has a unique environment and playstyle. It requires it's own solutions. On that note, time to start.

1. Missions

Past: Why do missions stay exciting? Variation. Yes, we draw from the same pool, but there still is breaking up. A person can run missions all day and not have repeats. You can run with a few people just as fun as solo. As result, they can be both entertaining as well as profitable. Profit not just in isk, but also the slavage and SP to improve even more.

Current: The solo and small group play also allows you to set your own pace, fight your own way. While some may follow wiki to minmax, just look at the ships undocking from a mission station. There is a good variety. This maintaining of individuality means a person can be most engrossed in it.

Future: We say procedural, but that does not mean more difficult. Procedural just means a person needs to be more cautious. Still have the feeling of power by defeating overwhelming numbers with ships firing and circling at you in plenty, but doesn't need to be so that a mistake is instant doom. Just... interesting and refreshing. The commonality and themes to missions can remain by means of the description, engaging battlefield, infiltrate complex, etc.

The main things for missions is that they need to create an experience. The music, the being outnumbered, wrecks and explosions all create a bit of immersion on what is otherwise farming.

2. Exploration (K-space)

Past: Past exploration was my favorite part of PvE. I started highsec, got skills to move to lowsec sites. From there I was able to invest heavily into a ship that can do nullsec. It was tense, but there was a continual and very nice progression of risk, investment, and reward. Skills required became more varied as combat skills and more advanced ship skills to solo, and fleets in some cases for certain combat sites if hitting them in low/null

Current: Pretty much most of what was interesting in exploration got jacked. The starter was accessibility. It was made very stand alone. Low level to top level doesn't have much in the way. Get covert SoE ship, train hack skills and profit. The barriers came down as did profits. The sites were made less engaging. Outside of the mini-hacking game, they pretty much all feel the same.

TBC:

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2016-08-25 00:56:58 UTC
2. Exploration cont.

Future: Exploration needs that sense of progression back. When you are heading out to null, it is a bit of a journey if an empire dweller. Risky and tense. Low and null feel very different to an exploration person. Lengthening progression to be able to do these sites will increase both profits and reward as a player. It was much more interesting hitting sites in null and finding that rare bit of unique bpc or equipment vs now where... yay.... Salvage or datacore. It is worth more, but it should feel unique finding something of value.


3. Wormholes

Past: In the past, there were no poses in wormholes yet. It was form a fleet, go in, scan and explore, be ready for a fight. Wormhole finite gate access meant if you did find a fight, odds are it was going to be a close one. Fit for PvP, or the means to avoid it. Overall, quite enjoyable

Current: There still is sleepers, but mostly is farming. Explorers are not so much due to the difficulty in finding a system sometimes you can even do stuff in. A battlecruiser small group coming through a highsec wormhole and seeing caps on d-scan? Nah, no thanks.

Future: The idea of wormhole inhabitation isn't bad. We did "camping" early on. Move in, set up pos, run for a bit, then tear down and move out. We did it this way to limit the logistical pains of refueling. I am not sure if it is possible to have the best of both worlds unless sleepers fight to maintain control of the system and it escalates. Wormhole activity would drop most undoubtedly. That would dramatically increase value of T3 encouraging move in, move out operations again vs a farm?


4. Incursions

Past: Man, the past was a glorious time. Everybody wanted a fleet, we laughed at the bling ships dying. Always some new tactic to try, new people to fleet up. Do larger sites for the challenge and to wrest control. I was part of those initial fleets that formed tactics and helped lead the first teardown of incursion inhabitance. It really was a ton of fun, everybody enjoyed it, and all were welcome.

Current: Exclusive farming group. Bring your faction fit suit and tie or no admittance. LFG!!!!! Link fit in chat! Doctrine or come back after you got a few bil.

Future: Unknown and rewarding. Rely on people knowing half assed what they are doing in a fleet. FC's need to be play smart, not memorized the guides.


5. Others

Past: By far my best experience in the past was the sansha live events. Thousands were showing up at the end, there was no isk, and if lucky, an actor kill mail. Why? Because they were refreshing experiences. They were inclusive for all players. I encouraged new players to join. We had T1 frigates a few weeks old right along side marauders.

L5 missions: These were fun, yes they were isk, but it also was encouraging myself and friends to work together. Well planned, the risk was mitigated, but it was interesting because it was social and stimulating.

Current: Well, I guess a bit past, but Caldari Prime and Jamyl. Both lead up to with epic stories, but Caldari prime wasn't engage in story, it was pvp ffa unless part of one of the big groups. It was an exclusive event. Jamyl? If you saw it, it was interesting. For a moment. Then nothing and wondering wtf did I wait for. Unless you were a lore hound and chatting to this day about the significance.

6. Conclusion

Future: Walmart is a seller of products, The change reduced what they offered, and reduced the presentation of it. They gave peeps what they wish they had and took away the reason they came in doing so. CCP has been doing this over and over. They give something people want, but now without the reason that they came in the first place and without temptation. If you want pve to be marketable, there are three parts to game and story development that you need.

1. Visible goals: You start in rookie ship, and see ______ way out there being something grand. That top tier is your goal.

2. Sense of anticipation: When you are done, you should feel like wanting the next step. The epic quests are a good one. the SOE does it so well. You constantly get tougher, and there are milestones that encourage players to develop. The Scrammer rogue drone encouraging changing how you do things and keeping on toes. Dagan encouraging getting stronger and teaming up. Very powerful it is and wants a player to continue to do so.

2. Sense of progression: As a player gains SP, they should be feeling like they are doing more and more. But from the start they should feel like they are doing something. Drifters and sansha incursions failure? They are one Tier. You are in, or you are not. No sense of development. If it is one tier, you do it, get the experience, and that is it. All done. As such, they are relegated to a tool instead of the experience itself.


Not sure what else to comment on without being at the roundtable. But you need to get into the mind of people who run missions for running missions. Save server load and programming time by making an isk printer if those are the accounts you are worried about losing. If you want to gain players, then understand the players. Those that enjoy want to be immersed an active. They like challenge, but control.

BUT MOST IMPORTANT!


A player's sense of individuality must be preserved. Any successful pve mechanic needs to be set up so differing play styles can all be successful or needing an assortment of such. This should expand and be encouraged as you go on.

As for getting PvE interacting with non PvE? Well that is a whole nother bag of worms, but forcing them to enter your world (L5s) doesnt work. You need to create a PvE experience that has people looking to the PvP experience. IE see Sansha live event fleets.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Jin'taan
Infinite Violence
Trigger Happy.
#11 - 2016-08-25 21:41:57 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Jin'taan wrote:

The townhall will be held on EVE-University’s Mumble server, and be run as a mixed voice & text QA session, with the CSM and other hosts asking questions about the current state of PvE, people’s thoughts on where the future of it might lead, and in general taking the pulse of PvE focused players and communities.

EVE-University’s Mumble server?

Is this an out of game event?

Ugh



DMC


How else are you going to hear our voices? Links and how-to's will be provided a little closer to the time. We will be answering and asking questions verbally, as to provide a recording, and to help guide the conversation. I'm planning on having it streamed for those who do not wish to install apps for this event alone.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2016-08-27 10:52:37 UTC
Jin'taan wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:

EVE-University’s Mumble server?

Is this an out of game event?

Ugh



DMC

How else are you going to hear our voices?

Well if it's in game, Eve Voice is available.

Anyway, good luck with the PvE Townhall.


DMC
Jin'taan
Infinite Violence
Trigger Happy.
#13 - 2016-08-27 13:16:07 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Jin'taan wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:

EVE-University’s Mumble server?

Is this an out of game event?

Ugh



DMC

How else are you going to hear our voices?

Well if it's in game, Eve Voice is available.

Anyway, good luck with the PvE Townhall.


DMC


You don't have the same range of admin tools in EvE Voice as you do in Mumble. Being able to actively mute/unmute people so that the whole thing doesn't descend into a shouting contest is very important. EvE Voice also doesn't work (very well) with over 50 people, and I expect attendance to exceed that.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#14 - 2016-08-28 17:50:18 UTC
Hello CSM XI,

- Do you believe that planetary interaction (PI) can be considered PvE at all, or just a click-fest farmville ?

- Would CCP games be willing to share the statistics about (PI), like they have done in the past with Incursions,
so we can see how it used by the Overall player base or just a select group, maybe in regards to citadel building ?

- Eve online has lots of professions, sadly they killed off some mini professions over the years, but perhaps they
have an opportunity to make mining not just a profession but an actual Specialization !
Does the current CSM have experience to make recommendations to CCP about improving mining and making it fun ?

- Have you heard anything yet from the CCP about a Loyalty Store revamp, or them doing anything with loyalty points ?

- Would you like to see the Company give lp's the same treatment like they have done with skill points (sp's) and having
them Monetize it, for example selling LP extractors for Aurum, and having the players convert that lp into concord lp's ?


Regards, a Freelancer

ps: How can Maria Sayans contribute to give me as a Customer a better player experience in PvEve ?
source: https://www.ccpgames.com/news/2015/maria-sayans-joins-ccp-as-chief-customer-officer/

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2016-08-30 12:45:46 UTC
Fantastic! Look forward to it.

For peeps wanting the mumble info;

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Mumble

https://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Main_Page

I presume it will be the public server.
Bobmon
The Collective
Northern Coalition.
#16 - 2016-08-31 00:43:35 UTC
Check

@BobmonEVE - BOBMON FOR CSM 12

Alexis Red
Doomheim
#17 - 2016-08-31 20:01:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Thank you for doing this, even though I have my doubts about it's usefulness it's great that CSM members care enough to talk to people. I'll even try to attend and lend any insights, whether they are good or not is up to you all lol..


Your post was very insightful and I would have to agree that due to the very nature of mixing PVP and PVE together, PVE will always be impossible to fix.

Not improbable, but impossible.

After 5 years of playing in 3 month sessions with new toons every year.... the game is broken for PVE, any attempt outside of creating a limitless PVE (no PVP) experience will be worthless.

Waste of time....
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2016-09-02 17:51:40 UTC
Any chance of an update Jin?
Jin'taan
Infinite Violence
Trigger Happy.
#19 - 2016-09-02 22:18:00 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Any chance of an update Jin?


We're going ahead with it, and it'll be on the dates specified. Sorry about not getting the full topics list ready for public viewing, do have one ready, but it's mostly in the form of questions currently. I think - given the recent other developments - you'll understand why.

Have a lot of things to discuss, and whilst this is my first time doing a townhall, I'm confident we'll get a fair perspective on the state of PvE to be able to bring feedback to CCP.
Jin'taan
Infinite Violence
Trigger Happy.
#20 - 2016-09-03 20:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin'taan
Just a reminder that this Townhall will be launching in 30 minutes. To take part in this, please join the EvE-University Mumble. To do this, you can connect to their server with these details .Obviously, please change the name to be yourself.

You can also join the channel "CSM" in game to talk to us and the moderators directly, as well as using the text function of mumble to x up for the purposes of answering/asking questions.
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