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Orbiting a target question or two

Author
Astra Starshine
New Eden Crab Syndicate
#1 - 2016-08-03 05:17:22 UTC
Example: I'm in a scam kiting ship and 7km to 8km is the range I want to stay from target.
Which of the following is correct?

Arrow Select my target and choose orbit at the range I want?

Arrow Select my target and choose keep at distance?

Arrow Select my target and fly straight towards it, but using mouse to fly spiral towards it and then select orbit once there?

And say I did choose orbit at a range. While my ship is responding to that command, if I used my mouse and left click to select the areas on space to spiral or corkscrew, would it still be going automatically to the range I selected? or did my clicks while in motion already, mess that up?

Sorry to overthink it all. Just trying to understand the game mechanics better.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-08-03 05:33:33 UTC
depending on your weapon system.

For example if you're in a missile ship against a ship with turrets, you will want to set orbit to reduce incoming damage by using transversal velocity.

The other way around would be that you are in a turret ship against a small target and want to maximise your damage, you want to keep at range at the preferred amount.

Manual commands overrule any automated ones you have made previously.
John Volan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-08-03 11:21:13 UTC
A scam kiting ship... makes me think of a shuttle with a firesale going on in Jita for some reason...

But in all seriousness when you're orbiting a target with the intention of keeping your speed up so that their turrets miss, you have to remember that it's your transversal velocity that matters in that case. In other words, if you're going fast but straight at a target your transversal is zero and their turrets don't have to move to track you at all. This can be significant if you just click orbit or approach until you're in the right range as you may have a long window where your speed isn't being put to good use. A better option may be to manually pilot on a slanted vector towards the end orbit you're looking for.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#4 - 2016-08-03 12:57:56 UTC
Astra Starshine wrote:
Example: I'm in a scam kiting ship and 7km to 8km is the range I want to stay from target.
Which of the following is correct?

Arrow Select my target and choose orbit at the range I want?

Arrow Select my target and choose keep at distance?

Arrow Select my target and fly straight towards it, but using mouse to fly spiral towards it and then select orbit once there?

And say I did choose orbit at a range. While my ship is responding to that command, if I used my mouse and left click to select the areas on space to spiral or corkscrew, would it still be going automatically to the range I selected? or did my clicks while in motion already, mess that up?

Sorry to overthink it all. Just trying to understand the game mechanics better.


Ok, in pvp if fighting a turret ship, never hit orbit outside the orbit radius. This flies your ship directly at the enemy with a 0 transversal, so you will take full damage. Always spiral in. Against missile ships you can get away with it.

Keep at distance is good if you know you will stay outside your enemies range. Say you're using a damp script or optimal range script ew.

If you're going to spiral, then don't even hit the approach button because for that short interval, you are flying straight at the enemy. Start the approach manually in a spiral. Whether to spiral or not is mostly a matter of your ability to quickly evaluate the encounter. When in doubt spiral.

Now whether to hit orbit when you get to range is a bit trickier. For really short fights it should be no problem. But the longer the fight the more chances it gives the enemy to use a slingshot maneuver or some other maneuver that takes advantage of the orbit mechanic. This can let them temporarily reduce the transversal and if they time it right, they can apply a lot of damage and win the encounter. So some people never orbit manually. I think being informed about counter orbit manuvers is part of recognizing them. So if you see the ship attempting to slingshot, then breaking orbit and piloting manual is probably a good idea.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Memphis Baas
#5 - 2016-08-03 13:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
1. The "orbit" command will aim you straight at the target, then stop you as you turn 90 degrees, then accellerate you to whatever half-speed is sufficient to compensate for the lack of cornering (agility) that your ship may have. So even if you turn on an afterburner or MWD, it'll slow the ship down to try to maintain the orbit range.

2. The "keep at range" command aims you straight at the target and approaches at max speed until you get in range, then tries to match speed with the target. If the target is stopped, you will stop too.

Both commands are canceled if you issue any other movement commands, such as double-clicking in space or trying a manual spiral approach.

3. The spiral approach is the best if your ship relies on a speed / signature tank. However, whether you should activate "orbit" once you get close, or continue to fly manually, depends on the target:

3a. If it's a big, super-slow target that simply can't match speeds with you, and you're trying to get under the guns, then by all means activate the orbit command, keeping in mind that if you try to keep a range that's too tight, it'll slow down your speed to maintain it. This is usually ok for PVE scenarios of frigate vs. NPC battleship.

3b. If the target can potentially match speeds with you, there are some manual flight maneuvers that can be used to trick you into flying a straight line so you can be shot easier. These work better if you're not paying attention, or if you're on "orbit" rather than flying manually yourself.

And it's a matter of whether the target's guns can hit you or not. If you're in a frigate, you shouldn't get in range of a frigate's guns, because they'll probably hit you regardless of how you move. On the other hand, you should try to stay UNDER a battleship's guns with high angular velocity, whereas the battleship will try to make you stop or fly in a straight line so it can line up a shot (and one-shot-kill you).

But when it comes to range, you have to keep in mind all things that can affect you:

- smartbombs - stay out of range of these.
- stasis webifiers - can slow you down, reducing your speed tank.
- energy neutralizers - can suck you dry, forcing you to turn off your afterburner or MWD (no more speed).
- warp scramblers - will force your MWD off.
- light scout drones (esp. Warrior II's) - can damage you, Warriors can reach speeds sufficient to catch you
- anti-frigate weapon platforms (frigates, destroyers , RLML cruisers, etc.) - can damage you

The ranges for the above modules are typically short, but there is overheating and there are ships with bonuses that extend these ranges to nightmarish 60+ km, and you'll have to learn the names of those ships, so you can avoid them or stay out of their extended ranges.

EDIT: Some people dual-prop (MWD for the spiral approach, then Afterburner for the orbit). This minimizes the duration of the spiral approach (you get in range very fast), and then you keep a decent speed with decent agility / inertia / cornering for the orbit (and also won't lose speed if you're scrammed). Fitting 2 propulsion modules takes up a lot of the ship fitting resources, though.
Major Trant
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#6 - 2016-08-03 15:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Trant
Option 4.

Start by setting up the default distances for the buttons in your "Selected item" window. Specifically the buttons for "Orbit" and "Keep at distance". The beauty of these buttons is that you can hit them a lot faster than trying to select a right click menu option and you can set the perfect distance, not be stuffed with a few choices that don't quite fit what you want. I believe you can also assign hot keys to them.

When setting the "Orbit" default distance be aware that your ship won't actually orbit at that distance due to the centrafugal forces at play, it will always be a bit bigger. So if you want to orbit at 7.5K, you might need to set the orbit to 6400 Metres. You will need a bit of trial and error here and allow for whether your intended target is likely to web you.

Set your keep at distance to the maximum distance that you want to allow your target to reach which for example might be your overheated Scram range eg around 12 Km. I'll come back to this shortly.

When starting the engagement the first question is: "Is your opponant likely to fight or run?" If the latter you need to burn straight at them until you get tackle on, but obviously temper that with what type of ship you are charging at, compared to your tank. If you expect him to engage, you can afford to make a safer angled approach.

When making the approach start manually, imagine a ball around the target, keep double clicking on the edge of that ball to maintain your approach angle. Make the ball bigger if you are taking heavy damaging shots, make it smaller if he is missing or only scratching your paint. You don't actually spiral in, it's usually more of a curved approached. Hit the pre-set orbit button when you are a couple of kilometres outside your desired orbit and have tackle on.

Whether you can maintain that orbit, boils down to one thing, are you faster than him? If not you are going to be fighting at his optimal range not yours and your only hope is that your ship is just so much superior that it can power through the disadvantage. If you are faster, then you have to watch for him trying to slingshot his way out or into range.

Be aware that there are two types of slingshot, one to get in close and one to break off the engagement. Early on he will most likely be trying the former, later on he will be trying the latter. If he suddenly starts pulling range, hit the approach button, then hit the orbit button as soon as you start overhauling him again. If you start overhauling him faster, indicating that he is turning back toward you, hit the "Keep at Range" button first, then the orbit button as soon as you regain control. The reason why your "Keep at Range" distance is further than your ideal orbit, is because you are possibly going to be hitting it while still outside your ideal orbit, but it will take a few seconds for you to slow down and change course and your ship needs to immediately slam on the brakes and reverse course to counter a 'slingshot into range' action.

So in short you don't manually orbit the target but constant switch between "Approach", "Orbit" and "Keep at Range" to maintain the correct range when he is trying to slingshot you. Usually towards the end (mid-low structure) I burn right in, because that is when he will be trying his most desperate attempts to slingshot his way out and you can afford to fight at a less advantagous range and take some damage in the interests of ensuring the kill.
Major Trant
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#7 - 2016-08-03 16:19:30 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
1. The "orbit" command will aim you straight at the target, then stop you as you turn 90 degrees, then accellerate you to whatever half-speed is sufficient to compensate for the lack of cornering (agility) that your ship may have. So even if you turn on an afterburner or MWD, it'll slow the ship down to try to maintain the orbit range.

The orbit command does not explicitly affect your speed other than by the default cornering slow down.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#8 - 2016-08-03 16:59:28 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
1. The "orbit" command will aim you straight at the target, then stop you as you turn 90 degrees, then accellerate you to whatever half-speed is sufficient to compensate for the lack of cornering (agility) that your ship may have. So even if you turn on an afterburner or MWD, it'll slow the ship down to try to maintain the orbit range.

The orbit command does not explicitly affect your speed other than by the default cornering slow down.

Yeah its a couple of things, mass, agility and black magic i.e. Some godforsaken equasion that determines your orbit speed.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Apocalypse Now.
#9 - 2016-08-03 19:24:41 UTC
There are some tricks that turreted ships have to reduce transversal.

I did some playing with it a while back and even some more a couple weeks ago. After watching several videos and reading several sites on the subject, I think I've stumbled across some very effective mechanisms to cut even a spiral or orbiting ships transversal bonus by a considerable amount. It does require manual piloting though. I've got a crutch version of it working with some of the automatic navigation functions but it's less effective.

Once I get it fully dialed in to where I can record it without embarrassing myself, I'll put up a primer on the technique as I haven't seen anyone else do it yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't already out there and just a 'shhhh, secret'. I'm not certain I want to part with it if I can prove it in PvP. Being a railgunner, it'll be solid gold if I can master it!

Now, I tell you all this not because I'm recommending it to Newbro's... just the opposite. You guys listen to the advice you were given by the those before me. However, I can't imagine I'm the only one that's figured out this technique, so even if you do a nice zig zag approach and a nice spiral in, don't be surpised if a larger ship with larger turrets figures out this technique and blasts you to dust bunnies in a hit or two. Yes, it could be dumb luck, but it also could be a skilled pilot that understand transversal issues. So, don't think it's an exploit right off the bat.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-08-03 20:10:11 UTC
a skilled player in a large ship will attempt to match transversal to an approaching tackler by looking at the ship and manual piloting the same direction.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2016-08-03 23:28:16 UTC
If you are using the orbit mechanic in PvP then other players will use their knowledge of how the orbit mechanic works to control how your ship flies. I would recommend that you not use it in PvP and learn how to manually pilot.

If you are using it in PvE then it really depends on a lot of things not the least of which is what you are trying to do, what ship you are trying to do it in and what ships you are trying to do it against. Like other's have pointed out your tactics will vary from small to large ships and even from one turret type to the other.

If you want to fly straight at an NPC to get it to fly away from you then you had better be doing it against an NPC that likes to orbit out far. If they are short range ships you might not be able to get close enough in to make them run strait. Also when flying at them you are at the mercy of which direction the RNG gods tell the AI to go. I typically make the NPCs come to me so that they are flying strait at me.

As far as kitting NPC it is very situational. The details of the situation matter. However the only time that I have ever gone up against one NPC and been concerned about how I fly with regards to that one ship are in burner missions. Other than that you typically are dealing with a room full of NPCs. So it's not a one on one mind set you have to think how to manage the crowd.

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Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#12 - 2016-08-04 03:28:02 UTC
A lot of people are talking about tracking here, and it's all true, but it's really not the point of scram kiting. The idea is you are able to keep scram while staying out of the optimal of your opponent, so it's ideal against frigates with short weapon systems like blasters/autocannons. Lasers may give you trouble, as will the longer range weapon types on frigs. Cruisers mostly can't scram kite very effectively because the medium weapons have longer ranges, though it does work in some cases (I once won a Thorax v. Thorax by loading Null and scram kiting a guy who only had Void).

As for your piloting question, while it's true that clicking orbit outside your orbit range will reduce your transversal, it's really not the problem! If you are planning to scram kite, it's not very likely your opponent is going to be hitting you at those ranges anyway.

What IS a concern is your inertia. Approaching a target can carry your right past the edge of scram range and into close quarters where you will have hard time pulling range again. This is particularly likely if your opponent is approaching you rather than flying away. Therefore, it's crucial to try to accurately predict what your enemy is going to do before you commit to a fight. Usually if they're brawl fit they'll be making a beeline for you.

If you're already inside the range you want to be at, it's probably safe to use "keep at range" or "orbit" because they'll both cause you to fly directly away from your target, which is generally your top priority in a scram kite ship. Hopefully you are faster than them (something to think about while fitting your ship!) and if you are significantly faster it's usually worth the low transversal to pull range faster. Trying to spiral outward inside web range is likely to take so long you get killed anyway and probably won't reduce transversal enough to mitigate very much damage.

If you're outside the range you want to be at, be very careful! Both "keep at range" and "orbit" are likely to throw you right into your enemy's arms. Often the best strategy is to burn away from them and reduce your speed to slightly less than theirs so they can catch up. Once you are at the right range you can adjust your speed and keep at range or orbit as you like. This will mean you lose some targets that decide not to fight, but that's generally preferable to flying right into blaster range in a (scram)kiting ship.

I HIGHLY recommend the breacher or another missile frigate for practice in scram kiting. They are highly flexible because you can scram kite short range ships and brawl against ships with tracking issues, without having to worry about tracking yourself. There's also a lot of flexibility in fitting - you can fit for speed, tank, dual web, tracking disruption, or some combination. Lots of ways to experiment.

Also keep in mind that the holy trinity of scram kiting - scram, web, afterburner. Count on your enemy having them. If you don't, you won't be able to maintain range.

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Titan's Lament

Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2016-08-04 08:16:47 UTC
Can someone link websites / youtube videos or similar when manual piloting for kiting is explained?

I tried couple of times but being unable to do it properly I went panic and burned all my overheated modules and so on making my fw fights a real mess....
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
Apocalypse Now.
#14 - 2016-08-04 15:40:08 UTC
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
Can someone link websites / youtube videos or similar when manual piloting for kiting is explained?

I tried couple of times but being unable to do it properly I went panic and burned all my overheated modules and so on making my fw fights a real mess....


I haven't seen a video on that exact subject per se, but there are others. Mr. Hyde does a Tengu vs. Small Gangs video at a gate where he showcases piloting the Tengu in a way to box a small target Comet in the gate so he can force it to not be able to orbit him and get transverse bonuses. He gets major damage on it then gets a couple volleys in after it escapes the gate 'trap' and it blows up. That same video also showcases the problem larger ships (Tengu is a T3 Cruiser) have against small, fast targets like Frigates. They never really challenge his tank but he has to let them get a fair amount into his structure to 'keep them interested' in keeping up the fight.

Manually piloting is best learned in an asteroid field. You start at slower speeds and maneuver horizontally through the field. As you get more proficient at moving your ship around, increase speed and start introducing moving in the Z (Vertical axis) as well. EVE does not have true 3D maneuvering like a Flight Sim does, or even true 3D space maneuvering like some space games do. You only have YAW and PITCH controls with a gimbal lock at 90° to the horizontal system plane, which means you can't do true loops. You have to Pitch up to lock, Roll 180°, Pitch down to complete a half loop. You'd have to repeat to do a full loop.

Consider yourself pretty good if you can navigate a dense asteroid field in any axis at 400+ M/S on manual.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#15 - 2016-08-06 10:49:56 UTC
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2016-08-06 13:54:36 UTC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc

That is a video of the polar opposite of kitting. It's the spiraling and tracking video put out by agony unleashed a while back. It's a pretty good intro to the kinds of stuff you are asking about.

To add onto what Blade Darth linked here is a audio only youtube video or Chessur talking to Pandemic Horde on manually piloting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YATpECqVOQ

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#17 - 2016-08-06 15:01:58 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Consider yourself pretty good if you can navigate a dense asteroid field in any axis at 400+ M/S on manual.

Lol

Kiting (not scram kiting) generally takes place at 2+ km/s for cruisers and 3-4+ km/s for frigates. 400 m/s is a dead crawl.

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Titan's Lament