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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Ammo used for secuity missions

Author
Korsun MinMatar
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-07-28 08:39:17 UTC
Which type of ammo is better suited against NPC pirates, faction or tech 2?
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2016-07-28 08:52:17 UTC
I've always used T2

tbh either will do, depends if you need something specific or not
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#3 - 2016-07-28 10:46:20 UTC
While faction probably works slightly better, T2 does the job well (assuming decent skills) and is usually cheaper than faction. If you could say what weapon system you are using and what type of rats you are shooting we could probably be more specific.
Wombat65Au Egdald
R I S E
#4 - 2016-07-28 10:58:08 UTC
I suppose it's a matter of how you run missions. If you blitz missions and try to reach the minimum requirements to finish each mission as quickly as possible, T2 or faction ammo makes sense. You can pop the required ships faster using T2 ammo and start on the next mission sooner.

On the other hand, if you try to pop all the NPC mission ships to earn the largest bounty payment from each mission, your costs per mission go up because you are using more ammo per mission. Using T2 ammo for this style of mission running reduces your profit in each mission because the ammo is more expensive and you are using more ammo per mission.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2016-07-28 12:01:07 UTC
The faction ammo will operate just like the T1 version only preform a bit better.

T2 on the other hand comes with tradeoffs. As a result the types of ships that you are going up against and your piloting style figure in to a large degree.

As an example for me when flying large projectile weapons based ships I never could find a situation where T2 seemed better than T1 much less faction. The tradeoffs always seemed to make it worse for the way that I fit and flew my ships.

Large lazor boats on the other hand were a different story. Scorch allowed me to use beams as if they were pulses. Especially with a ship like Apocalypse where you are getting a range and tracking bonus on the ship already.

My main point is that you are going to have to look at:
-The type of ship that you are flying, it's size and bonuses
-The sig radius of the ships that you will be shooting at
-The speed and transversal velocity of the ships that you will be shooting at
-The range of the ships that you will be shooting at
-Your piloting style and your plan of attack for the specific situation

In the above example with the Apoc for that ship I usually keep several types of ammo on hand since you can change with no reload time but a 1 second server tick. I used which ever ammo was better for the situation that I was in on a ship by ship basis. Projectiles have a 10 second reload time and hybrids 5 seconds so you have to think ahead more with those.

I would say the only way that you will know for sure is to use the different types of ammo in different missions and pay attention to your outgoing damage notifications. Do this for a while and you'll have a feel for which one is better in which situations.

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Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-07-28 14:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tao Dolcino
For the turrets (so no missile launcher) : The most important difference is that you have a choice of type of damages with the faction ammos, just like with the T1.
The T2 don't have that choice, so if you are fighting always in the same region, you have two cases :
- Your T2 ammos fit with the type of pirates you are facing usually (example : T2 hybrid ammos in Serpentis space).
- Or they don't (example : T2 projectile ammos in Serpentis space).

For the missiles, you are more lucky, as the T2 version offer the same choice as the T1 or faction.

Then there is another aspect : T2 ammos are only slightly more expensive than T1.
Faction ammos are much more expensive, and i would keep them for PvP.
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2016-07-28 15:33:48 UTC
Projectiles are special. There isn't any T2 projectile ammo which does EM damage, so if you get a mission full of blood raiders, you need to use some flavor of EMP or plasma.

With other guns (hybrids and lasers), usually the T2 version just has more raw damage output and some kind of application penalty (range, tracking), and you never had the choice of damage type anyway.

A signature :o

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2016-07-28 21:01:31 UTC
Tao Dolcino wrote:
For the turrets (so no missile launcher) : The most important difference is that you have a choice of type of damages with the faction ammos, just like with the T1.
The T2 don't have that choice, so if you are fighting always in the same region, you have two cases :
- Your T2 ammos fit with the type of pirates you are facing usually (example : T2 hybrid ammos in Serpentis space).
- Or they don't (example : T2 projectile ammos in Serpentis space).

For the missiles, you are more lucky, as the T2 version offer the same choice as the T1 or faction.

Then there is another aspect : T2 ammos are only slightly more expensive than T1.
Faction ammos are much more expensive, and i would keep them for PvP.

I agree with Tao on this. What he talks about here is one of the many reasons that I recommend new players skill up the various races somewhat equally until they find their playstyle.

I think that if you are going to be missioning a bunch you are better off having different ships for different uses. I currently live in Provi which is null sec that has Sansha rats. I am nearly always fighting sansha so I don't need a variety of damage and tank types. However when I used to mission a lot I had a ship set up for Gurista / Serpentis and one set up for Bloodraiders / Sansha and one set up for Angels etc...

TL;dr
Damage type is almost always more important than a few extra percent more damage.

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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2016-07-28 21:15:20 UTC
I'm an explorer and travel throughout all Factions space. After getting skilled to use Tech 2 weapons and munitions, I rarely use anything else.

I fly Minmatar so I use Projectile weapons and munitions, Barrage / Hail for Auto-cannons and Tremor / Quake for Artillery. I find it's much easier to decide if I just need to go short range or long range. That's it. If needed I'll use Republic Fleet EMP or Republic Fleet Phased Plasma for extra tough NPC's.



DMC
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2016-07-29 12:59:49 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I'm an explorer and travel throughout all Factions space. After getting skilled to use Tech 2 weapons and munitions, I rarely use anything else.

I fly Minmatar so I use Projectile weapons and munitions, Barrage / Hail for Auto-cannons and Tremor / Quake for Artillery. I find it's much easier to decide if I just need to go short range or long range. That's it. If needed I'll use Republic Fleet EMP or Republic Fleet Phased Plasma for extra tough NPC's.



DMC

Thanks for this post DMC. I had the opposite experience with T2 projectile ammo but it was a long time ago. I think it's time for me to go back and give it another try. I must have just not been using it properly.

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Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
#11 - 2016-07-29 13:33:47 UTC
I only use minmatar for PVP.
I only use gallente drone boats if im using gallente to pve.
I only use pulse and scorch if im using amarr for pve.
I only use t1 ammo on caldari.

So caldari is the controversial one. Many will use t2 but i dont know anyone that uses faction for pve. The reason i dont use t2 is because i think its a waste of isk. I actually did a t1 vs t2 cost and damage benefit of both missiles. I believe i used cruise. ( smaller missiles will likely be more expensive in t2 when compared to t1 as the smaller version are more heavily used for pvp as well where as cruise are mostly used in pve.)

What i found was scourge t2 at the prices at that time gave better isk an hour by 6% more. Another damage type( think it was thermal) you broke even on. And the other two damage types it was actually cheaper to shoot t1.

What many people dont factor is corp tax. It is the same tax on 10 mil isk with t1 and it is with t2. But most people will not factor corp tax into their overhead. So what happens is with t2 you push yourself over the threshold of break even into the red. Whereas you have low cost and low overhead with t1 but lower performance but you still make more profit than t2.

You of course save a little time with t2. But t1 is more readily available. And as i said cost to damage wise only scourge was marginally better. That will vary a lot depending on location( i used jita) and current market for both missiles.

However rather than mess with all that spreadsheet spaceships BS, i just t1. Unless im plexing and really need something heavier to take out a target with a good rep. I live in null so i actually just make my own missiles which saves me a lot of isk. factoring time to gather the loot and set up the job plus job and reprocessing fees, i can still make missiles for 60% cheaper than jita and i have to pay shipping fees to null so in my case its way more beneficial to use t1 in all cases. in empire its marginal.

Honestly if people really care about making max isk/hr then they shouldnt mine or run high sec missions because neither pay even close to great isk an hour and other professions pay far better.
Eleonora Crendraven
Global Communications AG
#12 - 2016-07-29 16:24:33 UTC
Be careful to use the right kind of damage against NPC ships: EM, Explosive, Kinetic or Thermal.
You can search for the ships on: https://eveinfo.com/npcships , search for the lowest resistances and use ammo/drones with that kind of damage.
I prefer for everything T2 but I am a drone junkie :)

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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2016-07-29 17:40:46 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
ergherhdfgh wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I'm an explorer and travel throughout all Factions space. After getting skilled to use Tech 2 weapons and munitions, I rarely use anything else.

I fly Minmatar so I use Projectile weapons and munitions, Barrage / Hail for Auto-cannons and Tremor / Quake for Artillery. I find it's much easier to decide if I just need to go short range or long range. That's it. If needed I'll use Republic Fleet EMP or Republic Fleet Phased Plasma for extra tough NPC's.



DMC

Thanks for this post DMC. I had the opposite experience with T2 projectile ammo but it was a long time ago. I think it's time for me to go back and give it another try. I must have just not been using it properly.


I can only go by my skill set and equipment I use.

I usually fly Cruiser class hulls fit with T2 425's, a couple of Faction Gyro's and Tracking Enhancer. Using Barrage I can hit at +50km range but for max DPS I usually fire around 30km range, great for approaching NPC's or hitting those at long range. I usually pick a Battleship or Beacon as a primary orbit item, about 2500m range, and then use the Barrage on those approaching. On NPC Frigates that get up close, under 5km range, or NPC's I orbit, I use Hail which has great DPS. Every once in a while I may have to reduce speed and deactivate the Afterburner to hit with the Hail.

I try to take out all small and med size hull class NPC's first. If there's too many in the pack I'll lead them away and break them up by keeping 40 to 60km range. I orbit all large hull class NPC's and those with tough tanks and fast rep's I'll switch to Faction munitions. My Frigates are fit with T2 200's and I do the same tactics with them, course their range is cut in half.

For example, I run Angel's Red Light District DED 5/10 in Loki Cruiser, the first and second room has a large hull class NPC nearby after landing on grid which makes a great orbit point to take out all the other NPC's on approach. The last room has 3 Stasis Towers in it with the last tower sitting around 50km range. When I land on grid I first take out those towers before even trying to move, by the time I destroy the last tower, the whole pack of NPC's is pretty much on me so I have to lead them away for a bit. Doesn't take long to clear them out.


DMC

Edit:

If my ship has a drone bay, I used Tech 2 Combat Drones to deal with pesky EWAR NPC's and Sentry / Stasis Towers. However due to CCP changing NPC tactics verses Drones, I now mainly keep my Drones in reserve for when more DPS is really needed.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2016-07-29 18:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I used T1 for an awfully long time (years) before switching to T2.

I've only used faction when doing a level 4 mission in a battlecruiser in my early days (low skills). It allowed me to complete a mission that I otherwise couldn't complete.

EDIT: Was the last "boss" NPC, Draben Kuvake, in level 4 mission Vengeance vs. Sansha which have rather good kinetic resistance but are EM weak, so I purchased some Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missiles. They added enough DPS to my kinetic-bonused Drake with meta 3 launchers, that I could overcome the NPC's rapid repair.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#15 - 2016-07-30 06:46:06 UTC
Tech 2 is usually optimal now that it is so cheap.

Every type of T2 ammo has a drawback, however, and you need to understand these. For instance, Null ammo has solid damage and amazing range, but terrible tracking.

Faction is often superior quality (exact range, target orbit speed and target signature radius need to be weighed up but usually faction comes out #1), but it does really add up in price, while T2 provides excellent performance at a great price.

Do carry faction ammo in case PVP finds you. Your opponent can often abuse the weakness of any specific type of T2 ammo. Faction ammo is good all around and doesn't have those glaring weaknesses.

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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-07-30 17:13:37 UTC
You also have to take into account your ship type. Marauders for example make far better use of faction ammo since they only have 4 turret/launcher slots.

On the other hand a maelstrom with 8x800mm autocannons will chew through ammo like a fat kid with candy and you may lose a lot of your profits just shooting at things.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#17 - 2016-07-31 16:07:26 UTC
Some counter thoughts.

For missions if you fit to counter the weakness in the specific T2 ammo you are using the T2 is better in most cases and it is about one third the cost of faction.

Some have suggested shooting faction because it is better in a PvP situation. If you are running PvE in a PvP fit ship there may be some truth to this, however if you are running PvE in an average PvE fit ship then having faction will not make any real difference. See those PvP guys came into your mission pocket specifically fit to kill YOU while you are specifically fit to kill the NPC. In a general sense the best advice when you have uninvited guests in you mission is to warp out and let them have nothing but a fight with the NPC for their efforts. No mission anywhere is worth losing a ship over.