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Crime & Punishment

 
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A looter's trick that circumvents suspect timers.

Author
Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-07-18 17:03:05 UTC
Gankers/looters have been using this little trick for sometime, and it seems to be growing in popularity because it is successful in circumventing risk vs reward crime mechanic.

Step one - Gank
Step two - Bring in a noob or a cheap frig to the wreck.
Step Three - Bring a Bustard to wreck
Step Four - Use Noobship as the sacrificial ship to move the wreck items into the Bustard. Noob ship goes suspect, but bustard stays normal. Even though it is now holding ganked illegal loot. If noob ship gets popped, repeat step four.

Step five - Fly illegal loot away safely in bustard that is not flashy yellow with no risk.


Even though everyone on grid saw it happen, there is minimal things that can be done since it is a flaw in the mechanic. Yes, the looter can be popped, then they can bring it back... However the transfer of loot is so quick that by the time the ship has transferred it and is suspect, it is too late.

How to fix it., two options I can think of to fix it.

1 - If you go suspect you can't transfer cargo into another ship (in highsec).

2 - If the loot is transferred into another ship, it goes suspect as well. (It is a crime to be the get away driver of a bank hist (even if your not the first one)).

* another option for #2

2(b) - If the loot is transferred into another ship, it goes suspect ONLY for everyone on grid with it (those that saw the transaction). If it warps away to a station, and no one station was at the gank site they would not know what happened and not see the looter as suspect.



Open to other ideas that prevent this loop hole in the mechanic, but lets stay on topic.

Thanks!
Kip


Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#2 - 2016-07-18 17:26:49 UTC
This sounds like it could be an exploit, but then again you never know. Have you petitioned it?

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#3 - 2016-07-18 17:50:56 UTC
I vote for #2. I would love to be able to join random mining fleets and turn their orcas into suspects ripe for murdering.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#4 - 2016-07-18 18:13:29 UTC
this has been around for at least as long as i have been playing,
yeah the hauler should inherit the flag.
then again crimewatch as a whole needs a good looking at and this i would imagine is quite far down the list of stuff to unfuck
Mortlake
Brutor Tribe
#5 - 2016-07-18 19:20:28 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
this has been around for at least as long as i have been playing,
yeah the hauler should inherit the flag.
then again crimewatch as a whole needs a good looking at and this i would imagine is quite far down the list of stuff to unfuck


Definietly. There's a lot of unfucked stuff that needs upfucking first, like cameras etc.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#6 - 2016-07-18 19:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
this has been around for at least as long as i have been playing,
yeah the hauler should inherit the flag.
then again crimewatch as a whole needs a good looking at and this i would imagine is quite far down the list of stuff to unfuck


Because you can loot from a suspect without gaining a flag all the rookie ship pilot would have to do is jettison his 1 trit and move the gank loot into that can and anyone can take the contents without gaining any kind of flag. It's inherently impossible for anyone to gain a flag for moving items that are currently "owned" by a suspect flagged character.

This is what happens when you let someone who doesn't actually care about gameplay design game mechanics.

As a whole suspect flagging is a trash tier mechanic.
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Dreamweb Industries
#7 - 2016-07-18 20:33:45 UTC
Agreed. Crimewatch is trash and has only made things worse for everyone, while all they need to do is make highsec safe. Prohibit using any weapons. Poof! - problem solved.

Agent of the New Order

Live by the Code - die by the Code.

The Voice of Highsec

Crinnfika
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-07-19 00:06:43 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
I vote for #2. I would love to be able to join random mining fleets and turn their orcas into suspects ripe for murdering.


Presumably they would make it so the orca can refuse sketchy loot, and/or the weapon safety would also govern the ability of sketchy people to place sketchy loot in one's hold.
Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-07-19 00:21:33 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
Agreed. Crimewatch is trash and has only made things worse for everyone, while all they need to do is make highsec safe. Prohibit using any weapons. Poof! - problem solved.


This has nothing to do with ganking. Ganking is a valid mechanic of the game, high sec should NOT be completely safe. Lets stay on topic. Its is about the exploit of looting.
Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-07-19 00:24:31 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
I vote for #2. I would love to be able to join random mining fleets and turn their orcas into suspects ripe for murdering.


Lol! Nice! That would be hilarious!! Howerver, maybe If your suspect, maybe the orca owner will get a message stating that a suspect wants to put into their cargo hold. You will become suspect... do you want to allow?

Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-07-19 00:27:59 UTC
Crinnfika wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
I vote for #2. I would love to be able to join random mining fleets and turn their orcas into suspects ripe for murdering.


Presumably they would make it so the orca can refuse sketchy loot, and/or the weapon safety would also govern the ability of sketchy people to place sketchy loot in one's hold.


Beat me to it! THat is what I was thinking!
Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-07-19 00:32:20 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:
This sounds like it could be an exploit, but then again you never know. Have you petitioned it?


I don't think its a hack exploit... Like Ralph King-Griffin said... I just think it was one of those things over looked but that should be refined and addressed.
Jason Kusion
KUSION SPECIAL TEAM
#13 - 2016-07-19 00:56:07 UTC
Kippy, you've been back to antiganking me for how long? Two days now? And you're already crying to CCP? I guess I shouldn't expect much more from an antiganker, but it does seem a bit too soon.
StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
#14 - 2016-07-19 01:48:27 UTC
So it was vexor loot?

Things have really gone downhill. Both in mechanics and complaints. What?

Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.

Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2016-07-19 01:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Jason Kusion wrote:
Kippy, you've been back to antiganking me for how long? Two days now? And you're already crying to CCP? I guess I shouldn't expect much more from an antiganker, but it does seem a bit too soon.

Show me where on the Bustard the anti-ganker looked at you funny.

A signature :o

Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-07-19 01:58:25 UTC
Jason Kusion wrote:
Kippy, you've been back to antiganking me for how long? Two days now? And you're already crying to CCP? I guess I shouldn't expect much more from an antiganker, but it does seem a bit too soon.


Please Jason, stay on topic. Do you have any real suggestions on how to fix this circumvention of the suspect timer?
Jason Kusion
KUSION SPECIAL TEAM
#17 - 2016-07-19 02:52:42 UTC
Kip Winger wrote:
Jason Kusion wrote:
Kippy, you've been back to antiganking me for how long? Two days now? And you're already crying to CCP? I guess I shouldn't expect much more from an antiganker, but it does seem a bit too soon.


Please Jason, stay on topic. Do you have any real suggestions on how to fix this circumvention of the suspect timer?


1. This mechanic has been around forever. You seem to be implying it is somehow getting around the rules or intentions of the mechanics, but I don't see any reason why this is anything but working as intended. Afterall, CCP would have done something after years of pilots utilizing this mechanic if it was truly broken.

2. You are thinking through the process incorrectly. The suspecting frigate isn't really moving from the can directly to the fleet hangar. This mechanic is essentially a duplicate of how POS structures transfer stuff. The only requirement to move any m3 of stuff between structures is that you be in a ship, not a just a pod. Why is this? Well, the stuff isn't really moving directly into the next structure. What actually would need to happen is the stuff be loaded into your ship and you fly it over to the next structure. Obviously, this would make for some very dull content so CCP does it for you. All you see is the stuff moving from structure to structure as if it was being jettisoned into space towards the next structure like some high stakes space frisbee golf. The same process happens during the looting process. Stuff gets moved from the wreck, to your cargo, to the fleet hangar. All this is done automatically for you because who wants to sit there and unload a 1,000,000 m3 wreck 500 m3 at a time with their heron.

3. As others have started to point out, even if you remove the ability to safely move loot into a fleet hangar there are a handful of alternatives to perform the same task and still produce secured loot and a green safety DST. "Fixing" this mechanic isn't going to change much, only make a currently simple process more complex. CCP has been trying to remove unnecessary complexity from Eve for quite some time, I doubt they will ever reverse that trend.

4. Just because you can't find a consistent counter to this type of looting doesn't mean there isn't one out there already. Maybe all it takes to "fix" this mechanic is a bit of ingenuity on your end. Not to mention there are plenty of scenarios where looting into a fleet hangar with a throwaway frigate or rookie ship isn't viable or the situations where you have no choice but to suspect the DST/orca/freighter.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#18 - 2016-07-19 03:44:37 UTC
gank the bustard?

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Nitshe Razvedka
#19 - 2016-07-19 03:45:36 UTC
It is tempting to throw a grenade amongst the cluster of crying codies, they are talking about unisex showers in the Intergallactic SummitArrow





*priorities*

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.

Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-07-19 03:47:59 UTC
Jason Kusion wrote:
Kip Winger wrote:
Jason Kusion wrote:
Kippy, you've been back to antiganking me for how long? Two days now? And you're already crying to CCP? I guess I shouldn't expect much more from an antiganker, but it does seem a bit too soon.


Please Jason, stay on topic. Do you have any real suggestions on how to fix this circumvention of the suspect timer?


1. This mechanic has been around forever. You seem to be implying it is somehow getting around the rules or intentions of the mechanics, but I don't see any reason why this is anything but working as intended. Afterall, CCP would have done something after years of pilots utilizing this mechanic if it was truly broken.

2. You are thinking through the process incorrectly. The suspecting frigate isn't really moving from the can directly to the fleet hangar. This mechanic is essentially a duplicate of how POS structures transfer stuff. The only requirement to move any m3 of stuff between structures is that you be in a ship, not a just a pod. Why is this? Well, the stuff isn't really moving directly into the next structure. What actually would need to happen is the stuff be loaded into your ship and you fly it over to the next structure. Obviously, this would make for some very dull content so CCP does it for you. All you see is the stuff moving from structure to structure as if it was being jettisoned into space towards the next structure like some high stakes space frisbee golf. The same process happens during the looting process. Stuff gets moved from the wreck, to your cargo, to the fleet hangar. All this is done automatically for you because who wants to sit there and unload a 1,000,000 m3 wreck 500 m3 at a time with their heron.

3. As others have started to point out, even if you remove the ability to safely move loot into a fleet hangar there are a handful of alternatives to perform the same task and still produce secured loot and a green safety DST. "Fixing" this mechanic isn't going to change much, only make a currently simple process more complex. CCP has been trying to remove unnecessary complexity from Eve for quite some time, I doubt they will ever reverse that trend.

4. Just because you can't find a consistent counter to this type of looting doesn't mean there isn't one out there already. Maybe all it takes to "fix" this mechanic is a bit of ingenuity on your end. Not to mention there are plenty of scenarios where looting into a fleet hangar with a throwaway frigate or rookie ship isn't viable or the situations where you have no choice but to suspect the DST/orca/freighter.



1 - I agree with ya that it has been around for along time, but it does not mean it has to stay that way. Games evolve, and like the watch list, can be taken away even though its been around for a long time.

2. - That is all good. that does kinda fill in the blanks, but still the concept that it is stolen loot, that it should have an effect on anything it is placed in. How ever it gets there. Just because it went though a process from CCP to make POS easier does not mean that it should avoid the criminal timer. The suspect timer should follow the loot, not the person. No matter what is done with it.

3. The process can stay the same. As with #2, the loot is what is tainted (till the timer is up). Don't work on your POS when suspect. Should not effect low/null.

4. Yes, I have see the situations when you have to still use the DST or freighter due to size restrictions, large ship can't be moved. But yes, then your transport goes FY. That is legit, and if you can get away, then you get the reward. That is the risk/reward I am talking about. That is exactly what should happen no matter how small it is going into the transport.

I am not saying you don't deserve a reward for the gank, cause when you get it good and there is minimal people to stop you, you can get away, but when the fleet is around you, and you can just effortlessly move stuff to a hauler with no risk to it. Seems a tad one sided.
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