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Crime & Punishment

 
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Feasibility of ganking a skiff.

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Author
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-07-04 03:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
I had debate about survivability in hi-sec about the nature of the Skiff.

I suppose I have seen code kills of Skiffs, but most of them were either badly fitted or had really expensive mods (like faction and pirate).

And from experience I mined ice all through the great ice interdiction of 2013 (or was it 2014?) and watched as many other mining barges died while I mine. Even watched a few freighters and orca deaths, but no Skiffs to my recollection.

Which brings me to a second point...

People still refuse to mine in Skiffs even after I advised them not to. I watched someone die in a retriever today. Added a corpse to my collection today.

That said, if Skiffs were affordable to gank, why are there are there still the bot fleets whom everyone hates from the miners to the gankers yet they still purge the belts of ice with impunity?

Well this is a round about way of starting a discussion about skiff ganking.

Do you gank skiffs? How often? Are they just badly fitted or can you gank the 60K EHP ones?

And on top of that, how much would it cost a merc corp to purge an ice belt of a bot fleet of skiffs? I know this would take a great deal of effort and you would get more bang for your buck ganking the orca or freighter?

How much does ganking an empty freighter cost these days anyways?

Would the normal 600 mil cover the cost? Or would this be a special case as most bot fleets are in NPC corps?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#2 - 2016-07-04 03:45:07 UTC
bot fleets tend to be wise to wars,
you can dec them but they usually drop to npc or just continuously dodge before the decs go live
in my experience anyway.
Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
CODE.
#3 - 2016-07-04 05:26:27 UTC
^^^^

This.

It's so easy to avoid a wardec that basically only the uninformed get caught by them.

The hard-core botters usually never leave their starter corp, for Chribba's sake.

As for popping Skiffs.....it can (and is) done, but there are so many easier targets out that it rarely happens.

Unless the target has managed to anger quite a few folks...:)


Basically it takes lots of Talo's and Tornado's.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#4 - 2016-07-04 06:29:34 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
People still refuse to mine in Skiffs even after I advised them not to. I watched someone die in a retriever today. Added a corpse to my collection today.

That said, if Skiffs were affordable to gank, why are there are there still the bot fleets whom everyone hates from the miners to the gankers yet they still purge the belts of ice with impunity?

Well this is a round about way of starting a discussion about skiff ganking.

Do you gank skiffs? How often? Are they just badly fitted or can you gank the 60K EHP ones?

No-one regularly ganks Skiffs. They are economically immune to ganks. Miner ganking in general has been made unprofitable, but the math makes Skiffs very unappealing. A typical T2-fit exhumer will drop 10M ISK so if you can kill a Hulk or Mackinaw and retreive your own dropped loot, you can turn a profit. A tiny profit of 10-20M ISK/hour, but at least you can break even. On paper an untanked Skiff require a minimum of 4 perfect gank Catalysts, but in the real world, more like 6-8 so you are loosing 50-100M ISK per gank even if you have fleet of sufficient size to even try to attack. A tanked Skiff can go up into freighter territory of 20+ gank destroyers and would cost well more than the value of the Skiff, let alone the loot drop, and require rarely seen fleet sizes.

So no, there is nothing you can do to attack the Skiff fleets other than try to out-compete them at their own game. It's actually a good example of why there should be no safe spaces in a sandbox game as veteran players just abuse the safety to out-compete the new and casual miners who can't or won't multibox 10 accounts. I'm not sure why CCP thinks miners should be treated so special to be able to remove themselves from the sandbox gameplay they are developing, but the safety the highsec miner enjoy is clearly intentional on the part of CCP. They killed any ability to gank profitably during the barge rebalance on purpose, and then made the Skiff/Procurer so economically punitive to gank, it almost never happens: the only Skiff losses in highec are due to wars.

Captain Tardbar wrote:
And on top of that, how much would it cost a merc corp to purge an ice belt of a bot fleet of skiffs? I know this would take a great deal of effort and you would get more bang for your buck ganking the orca or freighter?

How much does ganking an empty freighter cost these days anyways?

Would the normal 600 mil cover the cost? Or would this be a special case as most bot fleets are in NPC corps?
Given there is no reason to be in a corporation to mine, wars are near-useless against Skiff fleets. Sure, you can catch the odd person out if they don't notice a war, but given that wars are consensual and you can avoid them at any time by just dropping corp, I doubt any mercenary group will be able to follow through on such a contract. They would have to resort to ganking, and that would be very costly as outlined above. If they are tanked, you are looking at 200M+ to gank each Skiff in direct expenses alone, not to mention the time of the 20 person fleet, the cost of dealing with security status and killrights.

Ganking an empty freighter is even more expensive. If it isn't tanked, it won't be much more than a Skiff but if they tank it, it will take 1-2 B ISK in Taloses.

So in short, it ain't feasible unless you have a fleet of 100 players willing to shoot industrial ships with you in highsec in T1 destroyers for free. There are no groups of sufficient size to take your contract for any price that you would deem reasonable, and the cost in gank ships would exceed the economic cost you inflict on your enemy by exploding their Skiffs.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#5 - 2016-07-04 09:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaldi Tsukaya
Yes they can be ganked. A notorious group has been successful doing it.
They can bring the 10-15 ships required, and do their homework on the damage types.
If you leave a resist hole (EM) and fit for yield (no DCU), you are susceptible.
That extra Mining Upgrade must really be worth it.
People are their own worst enemyP

Carry onLol

edit,
"Gummy Bears"
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2016-07-04 10:05:41 UTC
Actually, I think a Procurer is less cost-effective to gank.

Take down a Skiff, at least you have a 260 mil killmail on your hands. We all know you don't gank miners for profit anyway-- you didn't really need that Scordite so badly now, did ya?

Procurers have similar tanks, cost only 35 mil and insurance covers around 28.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#7 - 2016-07-04 10:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Actually, I think a Procurer is less cost-effective to gank.

Take down a Skiff, at least you have a 260 mil killmail on your hands. We all know you don't gank miners for profit anyway-- you didn't really need that Scordite so badly now, did ya?

Procurers have similar tanks, cost only 35 mil and insurance covers around 28.

Neither of them can be ganked economically when tanked which was question the OP raised. You cannot disrupt your rivals mining operation without taking a significant loss if they tank their Skiff/Procurers. Therefore, there is nothing you can do to disrupt a large multiboxing operation that is hogging an ice belt or otherwise taking what you view as your resources.

Those are the numbers. If you want to gank them to make a point or for the challenge you can of course, no ship is ungankable, but there is no way you, or mercenaries you may hire, can remove them without taking a bigger loss than they inflict which is what the OP wanted to do. They are economically immune to attack by you.

Best bet is to turn it up to 11 and try to out-compete them. Use yield-fit Hulks and twice as many exhumers to grab all the ice before your opponent can fill their hold, hiring mercs or bringing friends to supply ECM support if you think they may try to gank you. Do this enough and they will move on.

But even in highsec ice is in excess and there are belts up all the time. It's probably easier to just move somewhere quieter than try to contest the resource. This seems like a serious flaw in designing a game where players are suppose to compete, but the situation is clearly intentional on CCP's part. I am not sure how they think supporting perfectly safe multiboxing Skiff fleets make the game any better, but there it is.

If you are a new or solo miner, your time would be better spent doing some more dangerous niche mining, rather than trying to compete with or disrupt the multiboxers. Beat them by paying attention to increase your yield by using riskier fits or mining in riskier space.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-07-04 12:24:58 UTC
I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count?
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#9 - 2016-07-04 17:04:41 UTC
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count?



Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed!

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#10 - 2016-07-05 03:10:22 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count?



Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed!

Let me know if it works out for you. When you see my killboard, I have tried but I think most of them were bots cause they refused to engage me.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#11 - 2016-07-05 18:40:08 UTC
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count?



Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed!

Let me know if it works out for you. When you see my killboard, I have tried but I think most of them were bots cause they refused to engage me.



I am trying my best (on my other guy, Gorki Andropov), and will certainly do - it's not easy, as most of them run as soon as you yellow box. I did have a guy in a Dominix shoot at me before he fled yesterday, but it was just a noobie. Oh well :)

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Tengu Grib
Cruisers Crew
Shoot First.
#12 - 2016-07-05 21:05:54 UTC
https://zkillboard.com/kill/39855159/

That's a link to me and a couple friends killing a skiff in the days before ISBoxer broadcasting was banned.

Skiffs can be ganked, but as you guessed, it's generally poorly fit ones, or ones with expensive modules. As Black Pedro pointed out the manpower required is rather difficult to acquire with any sort of regularity. And if you have that kind of manpower available, Freighters are significantly more profitable and vastly more abundant (than skiffs fit with enough modules to be profitable to gank).

So again as Black Pedro pointed out, Skiffs are financially invulnerable. The only way you'll lose one to a gank is one of the following


  1. Fit it exceptionally poorly
  2. Fit it exceptionally blingy
  3. Annoy someone to the point they don't care about the finances


And even if you do one of those things, skiffs have pretty reasonable align times and agility as well as base movement speed (for a mining ship) so your chances of evading a gank while the gankers are in warp or starting to land is still pretty reasonable.

Tl;Dr You have to try pretty hard to lose a Skiff to a gank and no, killing them en-masse is not viable at all. CCP has rendered them effectively financially invulnerable.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

shootyou longtyme
Systems High Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#13 - 2016-07-06 02:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: shootyou longtyme
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Do you gank skiffs? How often? Are they just badly fitted or can you gank the 60K EHP ones?

And on top of that, how much would it cost a merc corp to purge an ice belt of a bot fleet of skiffs? I know this would take a great deal of effort and you would get more bang for your buck ganking the orca or freighter?

How much does ganking an empty freighter cost these days anyways?

Would the normal 600 mil cover the cost? Or would this be a special case as most bot fleets are in NPC corps?


OP,
It sounds like you may be looking for someone? If you are shopping for someone to suicide gank for you beacuse your targets are in NPC corps, contact me in game.

I think a few of your corp mates know us.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/54880455/
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#14 - 2016-07-06 14:27:09 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count?



Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed!

Let me know if it works out for you. When you see my killboard, I have tried but I think most of them were bots cause they refused to engage me.


I am trying my best (on my other guy, Gorki Andropov), and will certainly do - it's not easy, as most of them run as soon as you yellow box. I did have a guy in a Dominix shoot at me before he fled yesterday, but it was just a noobie. Oh well :)

You have some stiff competition in becoming king of skiff warfare: https://zkillboard.com/ship/22546/topalltime/

It actually has pretty comparable stats to any of the Heavy Assault Cruisers....but in my experience people are more scared of the skiff...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#15 - 2016-07-06 15:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
I would suggest that you go to Zkill and check out Otela, there you will see that Skiffs have been ganked, they take about 6 to 8 Catalysts if insufficiently tanked. If properly tanked you are talking 12 - 16 at 16 that is 136m of ganking ships. You will see one there yesterday but go back a couple of weeks and you will see more. 20 if they have the max tank and boosts.

CCP have the viewpoint that it should not be profitable to gank a ship purely with a normal T2 fit for profit. So it has to be part of a campaign or that you really want to kill that person.

People will chose the other ships because of yield and ease of use, for example a Retreiver is cheap and if they are ganked rarely then it is no issue, using one in Osmon for example is just asking for a loss mail.

Maybe the Kusions will be interested, they seem to be very proficient...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#16 - 2016-07-06 18:44:00 UTC
The economical reason is one thing why it is rarely done, the other thing is that it is stupid from a gameplay perspective.

I mean try to motivate 15-20 guys for a fleet to kill Skiffs when the same fleet size is perfectly capable of killing much juicier targets like Orcas and Freighters. Keep in mind that a Ganker can only strike every 15min, so if you want to entertain them and keep the people in fleet you have to present them worthy targets and not some simple mining barge.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#17 - 2016-07-07 07:21:59 UTC
This ia what I would do about bot Skiffs in ice belts.

First of all lets have all the prates now attacking hisec, so we have battleship rats and the Dread ones too.

The pirates are especially focussed on the ice belts and have a much great tendency to drop their dreads on the ice belts, also if CCP has rats come in there continuously so the bots cannot use simplistic in come rats get out.

Problem solved and more interesting gameplay to boot

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2016-07-08 20:20:35 UTC
Don't the bot mining fleets usually have an orca sitting around somewhere?

A signature :o

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#19 - 2016-07-08 20:33:03 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Don't the bot mining fleets usually have an orca sitting around somewhere?


Yeah but CODE are so disillusioned by the sight of Skiffs that they are beaten before they are started...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
#20 - 2016-07-09 15:05:39 UTC
The Skiff is a Code-compliant vessel, unless fit only for yield. If the carebear attempts to deceive New Order agents in such a way, they will eventually get what's coming to them.

But yes in general, Skiffs and Procurers are uneconomical targets for ganking, and pretty annoying to deal with in general. I capped out a Skiff in lowsec and let my Pilgrim's drones eat away at it for several minutes before a corpmate of the target warped in with a Gila and forced me off the field. Skiff was in deep structure, but unless he was passive resist fit, he only had his native resists to go on. Very frustrating.

                      "LIVE FAST DIE." - traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed]

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