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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Just spreadsheets

First post
Author
Ankor Grammaten
Dragonhold Enterprises
#1 - 2016-04-22 19:02:52 UTC
This is not meant as criticism, just curiosity.

I've seen the game described as "Spreadsheets in Space". I think whoever coined that had a point. I'm open to correction, but it seems to me that the game could be played without any of the video effects, just from the various panels that describe what's going on. Less immersive of course, but possible. I wonder of that reflects the beginnings of the game. Was there a time when it was only "spreadsheets"?

I spent some time getting my character to look "just right", only to find that, with one exception, he only appears as a stationary picture as in the top left hand corner of this post. The exception, of course, is the captain's cabin or whatever it's called, where he can walk around a bit but still does stuff through various panels. I tried it once out of curiosity, then never used it again. Once again, is that an add on to an originally very simple GUI interface? It makes me wonder why the trouble was taken to develop such a detailed character construction interface. And sell different clothes? Was this the start of an expansion that never got advanced?

There's also an apparent contradiction in the lore. Is the capsuleer always in his capsule within the ship? It would seem so or there would be a risk of his dying with the ship as opposed to escaping in his capsule. Also, he is supposed to be "plugged in" via the capsule to control the ship. On the other hand, we see him wandering around the captain's cabin with no capsule in sight.

Inquiring minds want to know. Blink
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2016-04-22 19:44:10 UTC
Quote:
I've seen the game described as "Spreadsheets in Space". I think whoever coined that had a point. I'm open to correction, but it seems to me that the game could be played without any of the video effects, just from the various panels that describe what's going on. Less immersive of course, but possible. I wonder of that reflects the beginnings of the game. Was there a time when it was only "spreadsheets"?

It is possible to play the game with graphics set to the bare minimum and not even notice, yes. In fact... if you go out into those "big fights" you hear about it becomes almost a requirement as you want to minimize what your computer is processing (you won't even notice it as you will be zoomed out).

And, interestingly, the windows of information are quite immersive when you consider that you are not in a cockpit or even a bridge.
Your body is entombed in the depths of ship... cocooned in a egg-shaped capsule... which is filled with nutrient rich fluid to support your body the way a mother's womb supports a baby... with wires and cables connected to your body... tying you in to every sensor and system of the ship.

And yeah... the game more or less always been this way (but not the point where there were no graphics at all).
There is simply too much information you NEED to keep track of that cannot be compressed into a simple UI.


Which regards to the Captain's Quarters (you moving your character around in a room)..

Look up the Incarna expansion. The CQ was supposed to herald in in-station walking and activities. Unfortunately, everything that could go wrong with it, did.
It took too long ("in 18 months")
Lots of others in-space things that a large number of players were more interested in were ignored in favor of development of this aspect.
It was introduced as a buggy resource hog that was not even complete.

And it didn't help that it was introduced alongside a microtransaction store.

Basically, you are looking a vestigial feature that was was abandoned in the face of very public player fury.
It may be picked up again the future, but probably not in the same way it was orginally intended to be.


And you can see your capsule on the lower scafolding to the left of your balcony.
And yes... when flying you are always in the capsule.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2016-04-22 19:46:58 UTC
Originally, with the Incarna release, there was going to be more Walking In Stations (WiS) content. The character creator is a legacy of this. However, due to some, umm, issues around that release, CCP backed away from expanding WiS past where they have it. It's a bit of a shame, in some ways, but the core game play is spaceships, and that's where Eve is important.

The 'captains quarters' you can get to, aren't aboard your ship. They're in the station you're docked in. If you go out to the balcony, you should see some steps to the side. These lead down to an open capsule.


As for 'I could play without the graphics', it is indeed possible to play at some levels that way. However, that's a pretty basic level, as the overview gives you no information other than distance. Are those two ships, both 40km away, right next to each other, or 80km apart? You move in 3 dimensions. you can use that for positioning.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-04-22 19:48:47 UTC
Ankor Grammaten wrote:
This is not meant as criticism, just curiosity.

I've seen the game described as "Spreadsheets in Space". I think whoever coined that had a point. I'm open to correction, but it seems to me that the game could be played without any of the video effects, just from the various panels that describe what's going on. Less immersive of course, but possible. I wonder of that reflects the beginnings of the game. Was there a time when it was only "spreadsheets"?

I spent some time getting my character to look "just right", only to find that, with one exception, he only appears as a stationary picture as in the top left hand corner of this post. The exception, of course, is the captain's cabin or whatever it's called, where he can walk around a bit but still does stuff through various panels. I tried it once out of curiosity, then never used it again. Once again, is that an add on to an originally very simple GUI interface? It makes me wonder why the trouble was taken to develop such a detailed character construction interface. And sell different clothes? Was this the start of an expansion that never got advanced?

There's also an apparent contradiction in the lore. Is the capsuleer always in his capsule within the ship? It would seem so or there would be a risk of his dying with the ship as opposed to escaping in his capsule. Also, he is supposed to be "plugged in" via the capsule to control the ship. On the other hand, we see him wandering around the captain's cabin with no capsule in sight.

Inquiring minds want to know. Blink


Ive heard the phrase before, but its really just said in jest. If you take a look at, for example, some of the Rooks and Kings videos, I absolutely love how the enemy fleet lands just in the middle of the pipe bomb and gets wrecked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-O7FzwQO68

Take a look at this vid, for example. Is that just spreadsheets, even in the footage that is actually from the game? Its absolutely beautiful and brilliant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i4qlF_9__4

The False tower is also a great video showing how the graphics tricked the opposing fleet into attacking.

Eve is more than just spreadsheets. Visuals play an important role.

Also, lore-wise, no, capsules dont break lore, anymore than getting hit by bullets and hiding behind cover to heal yourself, breaks the lore of Call of duty. No one asks people "Hey, in call of duty, are we playing humans, or some sort of aliens in a mirror-image universe where man-like beings heal wounds instantly?" Its game mechanics.
Ankor Grammaten
Dragonhold Enterprises
#5 - 2016-04-22 21:13:32 UTC
Thanks, that's very interesting.

ShahFluffers wrote:

Your body is entombed in the depths of ship... cocooned in a egg-shaped capsule... which is filled with nutrient rich fluid to support your body the way a mother's womb supports a baby... with wires and cables connected to your body... tying you in to every sensor and system of the ship.


Fascinating.

Off the immediate topic, but I wonder how it could be if the technology was real. Would the pilot see "spreadsheets", or would it be like an expansion of his normal senses? Would he "feel" the ship as an extension of his body? Would switching something on be like moving a finger? Would space be like a 3-D visual image, with maybe some kind of enhanced reality giving exact distances and so on. Our brains are not currently equipped to handle that much data (I think), but enhancements? I love sf.

Steve Ronuken wrote:

The 'captains quarters' you can get to, aren't aboard your ship. They're in the station you're docked in. If you go out to the balcony, you should see some steps to the side. These lead down to an open capsule.


Silly me! And you can see your ship through the window!

Solonius Rex wrote:

Eve is more than just spreadsheets. Visuals play an important role.


Of course, It would be a far worse game without them. I used to be a programmer, and thought I recognized a product where features had been added on top of the original code, that's all.

Quote:
Also, lore-wise, no, capsules dont break lore, anymore than getting hit by bullets and hiding behind cover to heal yourself, breaks the lore of Call of duty. No one asks people "Hey, in call of duty, are we playing humans, or some sort of aliens in a mirror-image universe where man-like beings heal wounds instantly?" Its game mechanics.


My reference was to an (incorrectly) perceived inconsistency. Of course sf (and games!) can have mechanics that are not "true" in RL. I do think they should be internally consistent though.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-04-22 21:41:28 UTC
Ankor Grammaten wrote:


Solonius Rex wrote:

Eve is more than just spreadsheets. Visuals play an important role.


Of course, It would be a far worse game without them. I used to be a programmer, and thought I recognized a product where features had been added on top of the original code, that's all.


Its not just pretty lights though. As per the second video i posted, they actually used the visuals to trick an opponent into attacking them. This would not be possible if it were just spreadsheets.
Marcus Walsh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-04-22 21:45:58 UTC
If you walk out into your hangar you can see your pod opened ready for you to jump in. Your clone is saved elsewhere.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2016-04-22 22:22:44 UTC
Ankor Grammaten wrote:
This is not meant as criticism, just curiosity.

I've seen the game described as "Spreadsheets in Space". I think whoever coined that had a point. I'm open to correction, but it seems to me that the game could be played without any of the video effects, just from the various panels that describe what's going on. Less immersive of course, but possible. I wonder of that reflects the beginnings of the game. Was there a time when it was only "spreadsheets"?

First off there is not now and never was any reason that you had to use spreadsheets to play this game.

I believe that the reason that it was called spreadsheets in space was because of all the people that used spreadsheets to try and squeeze every last isk that they could out of their industrial processes.

A lot of websites and apps have been developed over the years to eliminate the need for or replace the usefulness of many spreadsheets. Of course now and before spreadsheets can be a very useful tool if you are into that kind of thing. I'm just saying if you are into PvP you can fly combat ships and loose them and buy new ones for years and years without ever opening a spreadsheet. Also I now do manufacturing without one. I use tools like the mineral worksheet in Evemon and such.
Ankor Grammaten wrote:

I spent some time getting my character to look "just right", only to find that, with one exception, he only appears as a stationary picture as in the top left hand corner of this post. The exception, of course, is the captain's cabin or whatever it's called, where he can walk around a bit but still does stuff through various panels. I tried it once out of curiosity, then never used it again. Once again, is that an add on to an originally very simple GUI interface? It makes me wonder why the trouble was taken to develop such a detailed character construction interface. And sell different clothes? Was this the start of an expansion that never got advanced?

You kind of would have had to have been there to really understand this one. To add some context to this you must understand that when walking in stations was introduced there were plans to do a lot more with it. The way that CCP forced it down our throats willing or not got a lot of push back for CCP. I mean like a real lot of push back. So much push back that they had to abandon pursuit of it to appease the playerbase at the time.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is only captain's quarters because of us players and not because of CCP.
Ankor Grammaten wrote:

There's also an apparent contradiction in the lore. Is the capsuleer always in his capsule within the ship? It would seem so or there would be a risk of his dying with the ship as opposed to escaping in his capsule. Also, he is supposed to be "plugged in" via the capsule to control the ship. On the other hand, we see him wandering around the captain's cabin with no capsule in sight.

Inquiring minds want to know. Blink

There is a video out there that explains this a bit. If I find it I'll link it. However you are in a pod hooked up to the ship through the implant connections seen on your avatar's back. If I find the video I'll link it here. But the quick change from in space to captain's quarters is just for ease of transition. Lore wise you are still in a pod

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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2016-04-22 23:05:45 UTC
I spent a lot of time looking for that video and could not find it.

It showed a pilot getting out of his or her pod and the pod fluid draining and connecting apparatus on the spine. I had hoped to find it for you but I had no luck.

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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2016-04-22 23:12:32 UTC
I think I have it bookmarked on my computer. Let me get home and get sufficiently drunk and I'll maybe look for it.
Memphis Baas
#11 - 2016-04-22 23:46:51 UTC
To be fair, a lot of MMO's can be played with the main action screen covered up by various bars and buttons. I mean, here's WoW.

We made a lot of the spreadsheets, because EVE (like other MMO's) is a game, and thus we can figure out the underlying game rules, and spreadsheet the best way to exploit the hell out of them for max profit.

IMO, the only way to prevent the spreadsheets is to have every effect happen randomly, and give no feedback via the UI. Which would suck as a game.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#12 - 2016-04-23 02:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Ankor Grammaten wrote:
Thanks, that's very interesting.

ShahFluffers wrote:

Your body is entombed in the depths of ship... cocooned in a egg-shaped capsule... which is filled with nutrient rich fluid to support your body the way a mother's womb supports a baby... with wires and cables connected to your body... tying you in to every sensor and system of the ship.


Fascinating.

Off the immediate topic, but I wonder how it could be if the technology was real. Would the pilot see "spreadsheets", or would it be like an expansion of his normal senses? Would he "feel" the ship as an extension of his body? Would switching something on be like moving a finger? Would space be like a 3-D visual image, with maybe some kind of enhanced reality giving exact distances and so on. Our brains are not currently equipped to handle that much data (I think), but enhancements? I love sf.

The Jovian Wetgrave is a good backstory on this subject.

Basically...

- Capsuleers are a humans that are compatible with implants that were originally developed by and for an "offshoot" of humankind that dabbled in some serious genetic engineering (see: there is a reason we are a "rare breed").
----------- even with compatibility, Capsuleers require a lot of mental conditioning and training. Otherwise we suffer from "mindlock" (see: a kind of coma where a person is still conscious).

- Capsuleer tech is widely coveted by every faction in the game.
----------- As a Capsuleer, you are effectively the bridgecrew (see: command, helm, communication, astrometrics, and sensors) in one person. This means you only need crewmen to perform oversight, maintenance, and repairs on your ship.
----------------------- Less crewmen on ships also means less loss of life in combat.
----------- By being tied into the systems themselves you can see things faster, issue a commands more efficiently, and optimize systems more effectively than any "normal" ship. This goes into into explaining why NPCs are often so trivial to kill (because they are largely "manned" ships).

- Cloning tech has been around for awhile, but requires some "bulky" equipment... making it not very efficient or portable in most cases.
----------- The nature of Capsuleer's "pod" (see: neural links) has allowed cloning tech to integrated and effectively make Capsuleers immortal.
----------- There have been some recent advanced in implant technology, notably technology salvaged from Sleeper implants, that allows for cloning tech to be inherent in the implant itself. This has allowed for foot soldiers that can be cloned repeatedly over the course of a battle.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2016-04-23 21:01:34 UTC
Ankor Grammaten wrote:
but I wonder how it could be if the technology was real. Would the pilot see "spreadsheets", or would it be like an expansion of his normal senses? Would he "feel" the ship as an extension of his body? Would switching something on be like moving a finger? Would space be like a 3-D visual image, with maybe some kind of enhanced reality giving exact distances and so on. Our brains are not currently equipped to handle that much data (I think), but enhancements? I love sf.

I think you are missing something here. When people used to call eve spreadsheets in space it was because people used a lot of spreadsheets to calculate build costs for various industrial process some of which could get very complicated. For T2 production for example in some cases you needed to have several PoSs set up to process materials. in those cases you had to keep track of the costs associated with running the PoSs and include that in the build cost and divide it by how many units were produced etc.. So it could get complicated.

However you were not using spreadsheets to fly your ship or anything like that. There was no use of spreadsheets in the game it's self. People used spreadsheets out of game to keep track of what they were doing in game.

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