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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

First post
Author
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2016-03-03 13:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Outdated, please see latest post there.

Hello people, Team Game of Drones is having a look at the Citadel structures services (reprocessing, clones, market, compression, offices) and we would like to make a few changes that will impact NPC taxes. The goal of such changes is to give more flexibility for Citadel owners to make a profit when charging their services to the public, while making sure they are profitable enough to compete versus NPC station services.


  • Offices in Citadels: unlike renting offices in NPC stations, there will be no office limit in Citadels. As long as you are granted access by the owner there will be no limitation about creating an office there. Office rental will be a flat fee, fixed by the owner. The fee will not have a NPC tax of any sort.

  • Medical clones: we are thinking of keeping the 100,000 ISK fee for changing the home station in a Citadel, just like NPC stations. As long as you have access you will never face an artificial limit to medical clones in Citadels.

  • Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price. Jump Clones installed in Citadels will not have any NPC taxes, but the owner can charge his own pricing for the service. We also want to remove the maximum limit of jump clones for Citadels: like Citadel offices, your alliance, corporation or public customers will never be denied usage of this service if you grant them access in the first place.

  • Reprocessing: we are thinking of changing the way reprocessing taxes work. Currently, the taxes are expressed in materials, so if you get 100 units of tritanium the system would take 5 for a 5% tax. We would like to change that tax to be payable in ISK only to make it simpler for structure owners to get their fees. This would apply to NPC stations as well and still be reduced by your standings tower the NPC corporation owning the station. In addition, the tax will be properly logged into the transactions part of the journal. Reprocessing taxes inside a Citadel will be left entirely to the owner, no NPC tax will be enforced.

  • Compression: after internal discussion we are planning to merge this service with the reprocessing service module, so you won't need to install two modules in your Citadel to get this functionality. Compression is not going to be taxed because there is no NPC counterpart to compete with (only available in Starbases at the moment).

  • Market: markets currently have two taxes, transaction's tax, applied for sold items, and broker's fee for non immediate orders, which are set at 1.5% and 1% respectively. To create an environment more competitive for Citadels, we plan on increasing the transaction tax to 2.5% and the broker's fee to 5-6%. Players trading in citadels will still receive the transaction tax, but the broker's fee will be at the complete discretion of the owner. To avoid confusion for the owner, the broker relations skill will not affect player set broker's fee in Citadels.

  • Contracts: while Contracts will not be available in Citadels for the first release, the transaction's tax and borker's fee will also go up by the same amount than markets as mentioned above.



Please remember those are still work in progress changes (especially the market broker's fee tax amount), so please use constructive feedback in your replies.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-03-03 14:19:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Very nice stuff, glad to see it.

Question: For the reprocessing tax, how is the ISK cost calculated? I'd assume it looks at the outputs and charges a percentage of the output's market value in ISK.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#3 - 2016-03-03 14:21:59 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • Compression: after internal discussion we are planning to merge this service with the reprocessing service module, so you won't need to install two modules in your Citadel to get this functionality. Compression is not going to be taxed because there is no NPC counterpart to compete with (only available in Starbases at the moment).


  • I like this - if I am understanding it right.

    "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

    #NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #4 - 2016-03-03 14:28:41 UTC
    Looks good to me. Not sure the taxes are high enough to get people out of the complete safety of existing structures.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    Me ofcourse
    Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
    Goonswarm Federation
    #5 - 2016-03-03 14:30:03 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Reprocessing: we are thinking of changing the way reprocessing taxes work. Currently, the taxes are expressed in materials, so if you get 100 units of tritanium the system would take 5 for a 5% tax. We would like to change that tax to be payable in ISK only to make it simpler for structure owners to get their fees. This would apply to NPC stations as well and still be reduced by your standings tower the NPC corporation owning the station. In addition, the tax will be properly logged into the transactions part of the journal. Reprocessing taxes inside a Citadel will be left entirely to the owner, no NPC tax will be enforced.


  • what about an option for the owners to pick if they want either % of the minerals (like now) or they can ask for isk instead

    mainly due to how minerals are a more fixed value unlike isk percentage which can fluctuate
    Muon Farstrider
    Partial Safety
    #6 - 2016-03-03 14:30:25 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price.


    Wat. Every time I jump out of a clone while docked in an NPC station I'm going to have to pay 5m isk? That's absurd. 5m for initial installation is a bit of a steep jump from the existing fees but reasonable for a one-time cost, but essentially a 5m fee every time you want to use the jump clone system is crazy.

    Please tell me I'm misinterpreting this, or if I'm not, please think that through a bit more. Not everyone lives somewhere where there'll be abundant friendly citadels to get around that - and to boot, the people who don't (hisec/lowsec dwellers) are also the ones who are most likely to have a large, spread-out geographic area that they use the current jump clone system to get around in.
    Niko Zino
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #7 - 2016-03-03 14:31:22 UTC
    My understanding of all things market and industry being supbar, I can't really comment on that without having to go do seppukku later.

    However, the 5M fee for *using* a JC (as in jumping from an installed clone to an installed clone) is pretty much a death sentence for our newbie oriented PvP roams.

    The idea is to show people that PvP is enjoyable and can be done in a somewhat risk free (cost wise) way even at very low SPs and in game time. To that purpose, we encourage our newbies to come on a roam and leave a JC in null for when they feel like a change of pace.

    With the price of a fully fitted t1 frigate every time they want to change scenery, they just won't consider it 'free' anymore, and it will make our job a lot harder, entrenching 'null-sec' even more for casual pvpers.

    Upping the installation cost of the JC isn't troubling, but the recurring fee, I'm totally scratching my head as to what problem it's supposed to address.

    My 2c

    CAS, the NPC Corp that Does Stuff™

    Kenneth Feld
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #8 - 2016-03-03 14:32:57 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello people, Team Game of Drones is having a look at the Citadel structures services (reprocessing, clones, market, compression, offices) and we would like to make a few changes that will impact NPC taxes. The goal of such changes is to give more flexibility for Citadel owners to make a profit when charging their services to the public, while making sure they are profitable enough to compete versus NPC station services.




    • Contracts: while Contracts will not be available in Citadels for the first release, the transaction's tax and borker's fee will also go up by the same amount than markets as mentioned above.



    Please remember those are still work in progress changes (especially the market broker's fee tax amount), so please use constructive feedback in your replies.



    Contracts - will the borkers fee and transaction tax be based on the price of the contract or the value of the contents?
    Antioch Red
    Atomic Heroes
    GaNg BaNg TeAm
    #9 - 2016-03-03 14:34:28 UTC
    Anything that puts more control into player hands is always a benefit, but I would question the proposed level of broker fee. At that sort of NPC level, even with good trading skills, I'd stand to lose 75million isk for every dreadnought I sell, 40million isk for every carrier. These are not small sums. Whilst I understand the intention to allow citadels to compete with NPC stations, I fail to see the need to raise the broker fee so massively, if at all.

    My choice would be more likely determined by where I build these items, so the incentive is provided at the production end. I'm very unlikely to build in a citadel then to move everything to an npc station to sell them, or vice versa. I'd also think that most citadels offering a 1% fee, with npc stations remaining the also at 1%, makes them competitive whilst still earning the citadel owner a nice revenue stream. Not being competitive would be for citadel owners to hike above the npc level, and even then the movement costs and time would probably still leave them the stronger market at twice the rate of npcs so long as the incentive to build in citadels was sufficiently good.

    Giving npcs a fee of 5-6% jut leaves citadel owners free to charge the usual nickel'n'dime amount lower at 4.9-5.9% and still be lower, and that is an eye watering increase.

    I can honestly say that at those levels I would cease most of my 0.0 selling as I'm not convinced I could pass those costs on. As for the empire traders? Be prepared for a lot of complaints....
    CCP Ytterbium
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #10 - 2016-03-03 14:34:40 UTC
    Niko Zino wrote:
    Stuff


    Those are fair points we've been discussing internally. Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.
    Valuv
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #11 - 2016-03-03 14:38:46 UTC
    If XL citadels are allowed in high sec, this is a good change, as it would open up huge amounts of new gameplay options.
    Mia Markaya
    Unlimited Blade Works.
    #12 - 2016-03-03 14:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mia Markaya
    Looks good, but I really dislike the idea of paying a fee every time I want to jump clone. Please rethink this concept.

    Maybe you could do a scaling installing cost based on how many clones you already have ( say, 100,000/500,000/1mil/5mil/10mil ) but a Fee for every time you jump is incredibly annoying.
    Kenneth Feld
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #13 - 2016-03-03 14:40:13 UTC
    Valuv wrote:
    If XL citadels are allowed in high sec, this is a good change, as it would open up huge amounts of new gameplay options.



    No citadels in jita or amarr, shattered WH or Thera

    No other restriction

    XL's everywhere
    Dave stark
    #14 - 2016-03-03 14:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Niko Zino wrote:
    Stuff


    Those are fair points we've been discussing internally. Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.



    I'd honestly either rather see you shift the cost towards installation and away from use - or alternatively, have an "upkeep" fee for clones to offset the cost.

    an on use fee discourages use, which discourages content generation. setting those costs to "one off" or "upkeep" instead do the opposite and promote usage in order to "get your moneys worth".
    MuraSaki Siki
    Immortal Valkyrie
    Fraternity.
    #15 - 2016-03-03 14:41:51 UTC
    just to clarify the market tax

    after the changes, when trading in citadels, transaction tax goes to system, and broker's fee goes to the owner. Is that right?
    luobote kong
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #16 - 2016-03-03 14:42:50 UTC
    So the general drift is some people will in future have to ask permission from others to be able to play Eve competitively? I'm thinking small groups and solo players who also can't set up a market in a medium citadel. Good luck with that if that is your intention. Or have I missed something?
    Scotsman Howard
    S0utherN Comfort
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #17 - 2016-03-03 14:44:23 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price. Jump Clones installed in Citadels will not have any NPC taxes, but the owner can charge his own pricing for the service. We also want to remove the maximum limit of jump clones for Citadels: like Citadel offices, your alliance, corporation or public customers will never be denied usage of this service if you grant them access in the first place.


  • Market: markets currently have two taxes, transaction's tax, applied for sold items, and broker's fee for non immediate orders, which are set at 1.5% and 1% respectively. To create an environment more competitive for Citadels, we plan on increasing the transaction tax to 2.5% and the broker's fee to 5-6%. Players trading in citadels will still receive the transaction tax, but the broker's fee will be at the complete discretion of the owner. To avoid confusion for the owner, the broker relations skill will not affect player set broker's fee in Citadels.



  • Two things:

    1. The jump clone cost for simply switching clones that have already been paid for is dumb. Sure leave the initial fee to setup the clone, but simply jumping to another one should NOT cost money as there is already the built in cost of the 24 hour wait.

    - Either keep the cost at 5 million a switch or ELIMINATE the cool down period. Heck you could make the cost scale based on how quickly you switch clones (think jump fatigue but better thought out)

    2. The taxes will do nothing but raise prices overall. Reasons below:

    - Everything in the game has its price based in some way off of Jita (Hate it if you want but this will not change. There will always be a central market price even if it is not in Jita. it will stay in high sec though).

    - People will NOT move the market to a citadel in high sec because it can be destroyed. It is better to pay the higher tax on your orders than have to pay the higher price to have your junk moved when someone blows up the citadel you are in.

    - Because people will not move the high sec markets into a citadel, the prices in the market will adjust accordingly (hint the buyers will eat this cost in higher prices). This will then cause the whole of Eve to increase prices to match Jita.

    - Even IF you could convince high sec to move the market to a citadel, it will not happen in the scale you want until you get contracts setup.

    - My advise on this would be to scale the tax increase with sec status (high sec goes up slightly, low sec is higher still, and null is the highest)

    Final note: I hope that the new hardware is ready for the Tidal Wave of market orders that will flood the market the day before this patch.
    Kenneth Feld
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #18 - 2016-03-03 14:45:29 UTC
    luobote kong wrote:
    So the general drift is some people will in future have to ask permission from others to be able to play Eve competitively? I'm thinking small groups and solo players who also can't set up a market in a medium citadel. Good luck with that if that is your intention. Or have I missed something?



    Medium Citadels can't fit the market service module - L and XL only
    Morrigan LeSante
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #19 - 2016-03-03 14:45:51 UTC
    Muon Farstrider wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price.


    Wat. Every time I jump out of a clone while docked in an NPC station I'm going to have to pay 5m isk? That's absurd. 5m for initial installation is a bit of a steep jump from the existing fees but reasonable for a one-time cost, but essentially a 5m fee every time you want to use the jump clone system is crazy.

    Please tell me I'm misinterpreting this, or if I'm not, please think that through a bit more. Not everyone lives somewhere where there'll be abundant friendly citadels to get around that - and to boot, the people who don't (hisec/lowsec dwellers) are also the ones who are most likely to have a large, spread-out geographic area that they use the current jump clone system to get around in.



    Would like clarification here too please.
    Niko Zino
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #20 - 2016-03-03 14:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Zino
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Niko Zino wrote:
    Stuff


    Those are fair points we've been discussing internally. Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.


    Aligning it with the cost of a contract, or maybe even the installation of a JC, makes some sense, from a game perspective. All of that free whizzing around and all that... sure.

    Now there is a cost to having a cloning bay in the Citadel, for sure, but there is a good reason to have a clone bay rather than another module, generally.

    If the idea is 'if I want me and my corpmates to jave JCs, it will cost roughly 200M a month, no matter what', I still think it's less interesting than 'hey I maxed out my mods in the Citadel, but it means I have to risk travelling back and fro to use it'. More opportunities to get caught, more opportunities for intelligence gathering etc.

    I kind of fear that making every jump 5M on top of the very long cooldown might make JCs obsolete but for a handful of people.

    EDIT: I think the ISK you pay to have a clone in a Citadel rather than an NPC station is a convenience fee to avoid travelling there, not a commodity that free market can resolve

    CAS, the NPC Corp that Does Stuff™

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