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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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why am i missing?

First post
Author
Rei PingYu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2015-12-23 07:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: AMARR CITIZEN 11151215
target: deadspace gurista cruiser (medium)
range: 25 km
angular velocity: .0061800

weapon: dual heavy pulse laser (large)
max range: 56m
optimal: 43m (with a 13 km variance)
rad: .0511208

my ship size: large
40,000,000 kg
.021232x inertia mod
21.0 m/s

i am hitting my target on occasion, rarely penetrating, but seeing mostly misses, grazes, and glances while he makes this 157,080 meter journey a couple times. i approach targets @ <1m/s (dont like to keep my back to my opponent, even in games)

**EDIT**

This has been solved. I was attempting to create a pivoting turret capable of tracking even small targets, but this is not feasible because any angular velocity is greatly multiplied by a modifier in the hit chance equation, causing any hits to score mainly on the lower scale of the dps randomness chart, which are appearing as glances and grazes

thank you very much :)

My posts are here for me to cite when debating in chat, or as a record to devs should they wish or require them. With rare exception, i do not monitor, or reply to posts.

please take this in consideration, reply sparingly, cite your answer. thanks

Rei PingYu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2015-12-23 07:49:16 UTC
for example...

is it my turret optimal range?

optimal range is 13 km, is this is a +/-. and not a falloff distance only +, he would be 5km inside my falloff range, which would explain all my glaces and grazes

My posts are here for me to cite when debating in chat, or as a record to devs should they wish or require them. With rare exception, i do not monitor, or reply to posts.

please take this in consideration, reply sparingly, cite your answer. thanks

Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
Templis CALSF
#3 - 2015-12-23 08:58:09 UTC
Rei PingYu wrote:
target: deadspace gurista cruiser (medium)
range: 25 km
angular velocity: .0061800

weapon: dual heavy pulse laser (large)
max range: 56m
optimal: 43m (with a 13 km variance)
rad: .0511208

my ship size: large
40,000,000 kg
.021232x inertia mod
21.0 m/s

i am hitting my target on occasion, rarely penetrating, but seeing mostly misses, grazes, and glances while he makes this 157,080 meter journey a couple times. i approach targets @ <1m/s (dont like to keep my back to my opponent, even in games)


Start reading

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Snuffed Out
#4 - 2015-12-23 09:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
out of range, optimal is 18km according to the wiki, i always go by optimal unless im using projectiles which i would then use falloff

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Rei PingYu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-12-23 10:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: AMARR CITIZEN 11151215
chance to hit = .5((transversal speed/(range to target/turret tracking speed) x turret signature resolution/target signature radius)^2+((max,(O, Distance-optimal range))/falloff)^2)

i know the math, and the equation. but, before i go and "solve for every ship and possibility", i was hoping for a quicker answer from someone who has been down this road

My posts are here for me to cite when debating in chat, or as a record to devs should they wish or require them. With rare exception, i do not monitor, or reply to posts.

please take this in consideration, reply sparingly, cite your answer. thanks

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Snuffed Out
#6 - 2015-12-23 10:38:04 UTC
Rei PingYu wrote:
chance to hit = .5((transversal speed/(range to target/turret tracking speed) x turret signature resolution/turret signature radius)^2+((max,(O, Distance-optimal range))/falloff)^2)

i know the math, and the equation. but, before i go and "solve for every ship and possibility", i was hoping for a quicker answer from someone who has been down this road


you're out of range...

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#7 - 2015-12-23 11:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Decoy
I have removed a couple off-topic posts. OP, you have a short leash.

Quote:
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2015-12-23 12:08:08 UTC
http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0910/eve-tracking101.swf

The above is a link to a flash based gunnery / tracking tutorial. It is by no means comprehensive. However it does a really good job of helping you visualize the basics of eve gunnery.

Beyond that some key google search phrases would be: "eve tracking", "eve gunnery", "eve turrets". There is a metric ass ton of info out there on the topic.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Memphis Baas
#9 - 2015-12-23 12:46:35 UTC
You're using large guns vs. a medium target, there's damage reduction due to the signature radius / signature resolution difference.

And pulse lasers are short range; so verify the optimal range of the guns (with the ammo that you're using), if the target is past optimal you will do less damage.
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#10 - 2015-12-23 17:17:15 UTC
Rei PingYu wrote:
chance to hit = .5((transversal speed/(range to target/turret tracking speed) x turret signature resolution/target signature radius)^2+((max,(O, Distance-optimal range))/falloff)^2)

i know the math, and the equation. but, before i go and "solve for every ship and possibility", i was hoping for a quicker answer from someone who has been down this road



No matter the target stats - if it's beyond your optimal range, there's a miss chance. No calculations needed, that's just how it is.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-12-23 17:29:16 UTC
i take it ur using an apoc? only thing i can think off that gets that sort of range with pulse lasers.

and guristas rats so no td....

if ur being jammed ur not shooting so i guess thats not the problem either.

npc cruiser shouldnt be too hard to hit even with large guns, they tend to burn directly at u so....

you know what i am well and truly stumped.

u do know that lasers do em and thermal damage and u will be shooting into the npcs highest resists right?
Rei PingYu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2015-12-23 19:27:33 UTC
mathematically speaking, i should be penetrating for 1/2 damage, unless there is a small portion of this equation i am missing.
getting into more of the math, i havent done the agi for my ship but she is close to a turret with probably some of the highest in game agility. you have to be doing a good 2600m/s to make the 25km orbit around me in one min, and you have to equal my pivotal agi.

my turrets should be close to .5 rpm, 1 rpm = .1047 rad.

i havent done the agi equation because the only one i can find is for warp align and out time, bu i should be pretty able to nearly be at a standstill, and pivot with an object to remove transverse velocities.

ive been doing these complex equations for days, figuiring out optimal conditions, but my theoretical science is not making a seamless transition to applied science.

My posts are here for me to cite when debating in chat, or as a record to devs should they wish or require them. With rare exception, i do not monitor, or reply to posts.

please take this in consideration, reply sparingly, cite your answer. thanks

J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-12-23 20:38:54 UTC
Wow, it ain't that hard:

* Out of range
* Oversized guns for the job (though they should hit, for reduced damage)

All the info you need can be gotten from in game overview + show info screens.


p.s. Looks like it will soon be time for you to roll a new troll alt. This one already lost the name. Doubt it will take long before the (forum) ban will be there too.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Malbona Pomon
Petulant Luddite GmbH
#14 - 2015-12-23 20:58:05 UTC
Your ship is just a ball with no actual front, your guns basically fire from the middle. If you could spin the ship rapidly in place to perfectly track your target it would make no difference than if you did not.

The numbers to use are the actual values as presented on the turret and from the overview (for the target) in game. If you let it orbit you while you move at 0ms vs <1ms you will find the numbers displayed for the radial velocity do not change much if at all.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2015-12-23 22:05:49 UTC
AMARR CITIZEN 11151215 wrote:
mathematically speaking, i should be penetrating for 1/2 damage, unless there is a small portion of this equation i am missing.
getting into more of the math, i havent done the agi for my ship but she is close to a turret with probably some of the highest in game agility. you have to be doing a good 2600m/s to make the 25km orbit around me in one min, and you have to equal my pivotal agi.

my turrets should be close to .5 rpm, 1 rpm = .1047 rad.

i havent done the agi equation because the only one i can find is for warp align and out time, bu i should be pretty able to nearly be at a standstill, and pivot with an object to remove transverse velocities.

ive been doing these complex equations for days, figuiring out optimal conditions, but my theoretical science is not making a seamless transition to applied science.

Your tracking speed number is only accurate if you are shooting at a ship with the exact same signature radius as your turrets signature resolution. When shooting at ships smaller than you your turrets track slower and when shooting at ships bigger than you your turrets track faster than the listed speed.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#16 - 2015-12-23 22:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bumblefck
J'Poll wrote:


p.s. Looks like it will soon be time for you to roll a new troll alt. This one already lost the name. Doubt it will take long before the (forum) ban will be there too.



It could be that it might be you who'll be experiencing that, for mentioning that. Oops

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Rei PingYu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2015-12-24 02:11:07 UTC
so, visualizing the equation, i think it looks like this


X+++++++++Y-----Z

where
x = my ship
+ = 1m range within optimal
Y = optimal mark
- = 1m range within falloff
Z = falloff

this would be a 15 m range, with a within 15m falloff and within 10m optimal

however, it might be this and this is my problem

X (1%) (1%) (1%) (1%) (20%) (40%) (60%) (80%) (100%) (80%) (60%) (40%) (20%) (1%) (ad infin)

where

x = my ship
(y%) = 1m integer solution for equation after modifiers on proper targets

where my range is 5-15m, optimal at 10, and falloff inside of 5m and outside of 15m

if someone could please explain this for me, i would greatly appreciate it, but this second interpretation of the equation would explain the prominent glances and grazes. they could be caused by modifiers from things i am unaware of as well, and i may be unable to penetrate consistently inside a minimum range, which is why i need a technical explanation, with citations please if available

My posts are here for me to cite when debating in chat, or as a record to devs should they wish or require them. With rare exception, i do not monitor, or reply to posts.

please take this in consideration, reply sparingly, cite your answer. thanks

Memphis Baas
#18 - 2015-12-24 02:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
We're trying to explain but you're ignoring the explanations.

First of all, KILOmeters. km not meters m

Second of all, if everyone has speed = 0:

X+++++++++++++++Y-----Z-----2Z
100% 100% 100% 100% 50% 0% hits

Your gun OPTIMAL without crystals = 18km, falloff = 6 km
But if you put crystals in it, the ranges change.

With multifrequency crystal:
X++++++++Y-----Z-----2Z (9 km optimal)
X+++++++++--------------...T (target at 25km)

With standard crystal:
X+++++++++++++++++Y-----Z------2Z (18 km optimal)
X++++++++++++++++++-------T (target at 25km)

With radio crystal:
X+++++++++++++++++++++++++++Y------Z------2Z (28 km optimal)
X+++++++++++++++++++++++++T (target at 25km)

What crystals are you using? The crystals change the range of the gun. You are using SHORT RANGE GUNS to shoot a target that is too far away.

Dual Heavy Pulse Laser:
X++++++++++++++++++Y-----Z-----2Z

Dual Heavy BEAM Laser:
X+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Y-----------Z-----------2Z
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2015-12-24 03:58:15 UTC
you seem to be ignoring a lot of the math. All of the math is out there if you just look for it.

The optimal and falloff math that you are using only works if the target you are shooting at has a bigger sig radius than your turrets sig resolution and neither you nor your target are moving.

The optimal and falloff calculations are just the start. They are your base potential damage that everything gets built upon. You can have wrecking shots that hit for triple damage. Also there are some chance based RNG calculations that figure into the mix.

If you read around on Eve uni or do some google searching you will find your answers.

You are in the new player question and answer section of the forum asking a very advanced question. A question to which the answer is out there. I spent a good amount of time looking into this once. It was complicated enough that I do not recall all the details nor the specifics of the math and I am not going to look it up again and refigure it out just so that I can explain it in detail to you when you are capable of doing your own research.

You've asked the question and been given resources to find the answer.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Rei PingYu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2015-12-24 06:58:56 UTC
Thank you very much, i was overlooking a modifier, making any hits i was scoring by default being unable to perform at maximum effectiveness i believe.

i was not taking into account the signature radius modifier of the size classification. this causes the random damage table to become quickly skewed away from being able to consistently perform perfect hits with the tracking loss.

i thought tracking was a hit or miss. dependent upon angular velocity, and dps was a variable on a random table. i was unaware of the synergy between the 2.

Thank you very much, you saved a few hours of math and a couple dozen equations <3

My posts are here for me to cite when debating in chat, or as a record to devs should they wish or require them. With rare exception, i do not monitor, or reply to posts.

please take this in consideration, reply sparingly, cite your answer. thanks

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