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The bad mechanics of high sec ganking

First post
Author
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
#1 - 2015-10-01 08:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
As the title states this is a suggestion for updating the mechanics of high sec ganking specifically looking at the current absurd situation that allows freighters to be ganked in high sec without the ability to defend yourself even if you have a support fleet including logis.

In null/low sec space you can make sure there are no neutral/hostiles on the travel route of your freighter before you even undock it. You cannot do that in high sec space.

In null/low sec you can actively engage and kill any neutral/hostiles on your travel route before they engage you. You cannot do that in high sec space.

In high sec space you need to have your freighter be attacked before you can protect it. Again, not the case in null/low sec.

Even if you do everything right (do not auto pilot and triple web your freighter) you can still die without having the ability to defend yourself even with a support fleet including logis

Just ask Grath The Meta Show @ 25:20.

Preemptive counter arguments:

Concord is a deterrent only they are not there to protect you from people
A: Things change. Geddons used to be able to fit 8 heat sinks, Domis used to have 15 heavy drones, Concord used to be a deterrent, See how easy it is to change things.

People will just move stuff in NPC corps and won't be vulnerable at all
A: I have a few ideas on how to fix this but am open to suggestions.

Dude, don't auto pilot your freighter and you won't get ganked!

A: Manually piloting and triple webbing your freighter won't always save you, see above link

I have never lost a freighter in x number of years hauling stuff in empire, you people are just doing it wrong
A: You're just lucky, it will happen to you at some point

LOLOLOL You just got ganked in high sec, How much did you lose???
A: I can't fly freighters on any of my characters

And so you understand the situation, Enjoy the ganks

Let the freighter flames begin.


TLDR: You cannot stop your freighter from being ganked by a bumping mach and 40 catalysts even if you have a support fleet including logis to defend you.

TLDR Part 2: You may be able to stay safe if you web your freighter into warp but that is down to RNGesus.
Seliah
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2 - 2015-10-01 08:50:01 UTC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not actually suggesting anything, are you ?
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#3 - 2015-10-01 08:56:19 UTC
Nope, just whinging and moaning.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#4 - 2015-10-01 09:03:58 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
As the title states this is a suggestion for the removal of high sec ganking specifically looking at the current absurd situation that allows freighters to be ganked in high sec without the ability to defend yourself.

I am confused; when did CCP take away the ability for you to defend yourself?

If you want to protect your assets, you are suppose to provide for your own defense: that is a core tenet of this game. The developers of this game have made this crystal clear.

Freighters are giant loot pinatas that are very good at carrying a large amount of cargo, and quite poor at defending themselves. If you insist on using them, you probably should bring a defense fleet to protect them. If you don't want (or can't) defend them, maybe you should consider using an alternative hauler to carry your goods, one that is more adept at defending itself.

So, -1.
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
#5 - 2015-10-01 09:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Black Pedro wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
As the title states this is a suggestion for the removal of high sec ganking specifically looking at the current absurd situation that allows freighters to be ganked in high sec without the ability to defend yourself.

I am confused; when did CCP take away the ability for you to defend yourself?

If you want to protect your assets, you are suppose to provide for your own defense: that is a core tenet of this game. The developers of this game have made this crystal clear.

Freighters are giant loot pinatas that are very good at carrying a large amount of cargo, and quite poor at defending themselves. If you insist on using them, you probably should bring a defense fleet to protect them. If you don't want (or can't) defend them, maybe you should consider using an alternative hauler to carry your goods, one that is more adept at defending itself.

So, -1.



It seems both you and falcon are confused. Concord is not a deterrent in the same way the police are in real life. Because if you carjack someone in real life you got jail for many months of your life. In Eve you are wanted for 5 minutes then the police just let get back to your criminal. So bad analogies are bad.

The only form of defence you have is if you web your freighter into warp before you get bumped and ganked. If you believe there is any other form of defence then you are mistaken.

And what exactly do mean by if I insist on using them?? You mean a ship designed by CCP for carrying massive amounts of cargo? That kind of insist?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-10-01 09:27:04 UTC
You can kill the bumper.

Whilst I do think the mechanics are pants on head stupid, it's very necessary for the ecosystem.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2015-10-01 09:27:15 UTC
You whine and rant throughout the post, and then you post this out of nowhere without any connection to that before.

Christopher Multsanti
[b wrote:
Concord is a deterrent only they are not there to protect you from people[/b]
A: Things change. Geddons used to be able to fit 8 heat sinks, Domis used to have 15 heavy drones, Concord used to be a deterrent, See how easy it is to change things.

Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
#8 - 2015-10-01 09:29:46 UTC
Seliah wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not actually suggesting anything, are you ?


I am suggesting the removal of high sec ganking. There are a few ways it can be done but I don't work for CCP I don't presume to have all the answers. I am just pointing out something that, to me, looks broken in terms of game mechanics.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#9 - 2015-10-01 09:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
As the title states this is a suggestion for the removal of high sec ganking specifically looking at the current absurd situation that allows freighters to be ganked in high sec without the ability to defend yourself.
Your post is built upon a false premise.

The fact that some choose not to defend themselves, doesn't preclude the ability to do so.

Christopher Multsanti wrote:
I am just pointing out something that, to me, looks broken in terms of game mechanics.
Then you need to look harder and gather more facts. So far, you're lacking all the required information to make an assessment.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#10 - 2015-10-01 09:41:51 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:

It seems both you and falcon are confused. Concord is not a deterrent in the same way the police are in real life. Because if you carjack someone in real life you got jail for many months of your life. In Eve you are wanted for 5 minutes then the police just let get back to your criminal. So bad analogies are bad.

The only form of defence you have is if you web your freighter into warp before you get bumped and ganked. If you believe there is any other form of defence then you are mistaken.

And what exactly do mean by if I insist on using them?? You mean a ship designed by CCP for carrying massive amounts of cargo? That kind of insist?
Of course there are other forms of defense. Bumpers can be ganked. Freighters can be remote repaired. Gank ships can be ECMed or shot with lasers. CCP Falcon confirmed that you are suppose to bring said defenses.

Eve is a game about tradeoffs. No ship or fit is good at everything. Freighters are very good at hauling, but the cost of that is your are vulnerable to gankers and bumpers. You are asking CCP to change the game to make freighters not only the best ship for cargo capacity, but now the only ship in the game immune to attack in highsec. Why would anyone fly anything else?

If you want the benefits of being able to carry a lot, they you have to accept and mitigate the risk someone will gank you. That is the tradeoff for using freighters in the game. There are haulers, like the DSTs, that are immune to bumping and highly resistant to ganking. The tradeoff for that? Reduced cargo capacity.

Choose the tool that is best for your hauling needs. Do not come here and beg CCP to make your ship do everything so you get the best of both worlds all the time. You know, actually play the game?
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
#11 - 2015-10-01 09:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
afkalt wrote:
You can kill the bumper.

Whilst I do think the mechanics are pants on head stupid, it's very necessary for the ecosystem.


You're right, the mechanics are crazy and you're right you can kill the bumper, but for that argument to be valid it means that every freighter needs to be escorted by a support fleet in high sec, which in itself is kinda pants on the head stupid.

I am not going to search for dev blogs or anything so I may be incorrect when i say what i'm about to say but i'm pretty sure when CCP released Freighters they didn't come with an exception that they would need to escorted everywhere in high sec (low and null sec is a different matter).

There are also plenty of examples of CCP letting player actions influence game play against intended design, (jet can mining for one) But freighter ganking has gone way past the line imo.

I have no problem with freighters being killed, I love it. But freighters should be able to get their corp or alliance to escort and pro actively protect them. You can make market hubs only accessible through low secs or make everyone be war decable, there are plenty of other ways to make freighters valid targets than the way it currently happening.
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
#12 - 2015-10-01 09:52:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Black Pedro wrote:
Of course there are other forms of defense. Bumpers can be ganked. Freighters can be remote repaired. Gank ships can be ECMed or shot with lasers. CCP Falcon confirmed that you are suppose to bring said defenses.

Eve is a game about tradeoffs. No ship or fit is good at everything. Freighters are very good at hauling, but the cost of that is your are vulnerable to gankers and bumpers. You are asking CCP to change the game to make freighters not only the best ship for cargo capacity, but now the only ship in the game immune to attack in highsec. Why would anyone fly anything else?

If you want the benefits of being able to carry a lot, they you have to accept and mitigate the risk someone will gank you. That is the tradeoff for using freighters in the game. There are haulers, like the DSTs, that are immune to bumping and highly resistant to ganking. The tradeoff for that? Reduced cargo capacity.

Choose the tool that is best for your hauling needs. Do not come here and beg CCP to make your ship do everything so you get the best of both worlds all the time. You know, actually play the game?


This is the part where you are not going to like my argument. I am asking for every ship to not be attackable in high sec unless you have a war. There are plenty of places in eve for non consensual pvp (wh space, null and low sec AND high sec if you have a war active). If you want to kill people in high sec declare war.

I'm just using freighters as an extreme example.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#13 - 2015-10-01 09:56:24 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
This is the part where you are not going to like my argument. I am asking for every ship to not be attackable in high sec unless you have a war. There are plenty of places in eve for non consensual pvp (wh space, null and low sec AND high sec if you have a war active). If you want to kill people in high sec declare war.

I'm just using freighters as an example.
Then you'll gain no traction here.

Eve is and will always be a game, that allows none consensual PvP. Whether this be combat, Mining, Industry, Missions etc etc. It's at the core of the game.

If you're looking to play Eve without any consequences and to be Combat free in High sec, then please use the test server.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-10-01 09:57:57 UTC
It's a capital....Go ask and non-high sec dweller the life expectancy of an unescorted capital....
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
#15 - 2015-10-01 09:58:21 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Bumpers can be ganked. Freighters can be remote repaired. Gank ships can be ECMed or shot with lasers.


The video i posted shows 40 catalysts killing a freighter in less than 30 seconds. None of things you posted will be able to stop that from happening in that time frame.


Mag's
Azn Empire
#16 - 2015-10-01 10:00:34 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Bumpers can be ganked. Freighters can be remote repaired. Gank ships can be ECMed or shot with lasers.


The video i posted shows 40 catalysts killing a freighter in less than 30 seconds. None of things you posted will be able to stop that from happening in that time frame.


You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-10-01 10:00:52 UTC
Seriously man, yes the mechanics may be stupid and completely unintuitive but what ELSE is there to stop people (like me, because why not) running about in multibillion officer fit ships in 100% safety raking isk in hand over fist whilst being untouchable?

They are very necessary. Could they stand to be improved? 100% yes, but I sincerely doubt that would go the way you want.
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
#18 - 2015-10-01 10:01:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
afkalt wrote:
It's a capital....Go ask and non-high sec dweller the life expectancy of an unescorted capital....


You really should learn to read before you post things that make you look like a total idiot....

Christopher Multasnti wrote:
Freighters didn't come with an exception that they would need to escorted everywhere in high sec (low and null sec is a different matter).
Christopher Multsanti
Bluestar Airlines
#19 - 2015-10-01 10:02:33 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Bumpers can be ganked. Freighters can be remote repaired. Gank ships can be ECMed or shot with lasers.


The video i posted shows 40 catalysts killing a freighter in less than 30 seconds. None of things you posted will be able to stop that from happening in that time frame.


You mean people have gathered together, in an MMO, their numbers have overwhelmed a solo pilot and you're surprised about this?


Not in the slightest. I'm pretty sure I never said player behaviour is the problem
Mag's
Azn Empire
#20 - 2015-10-01 10:02:42 UTC
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
You really should learn to read before you post things that make you look like a total idiot.
You were going for irony with this? Am I right?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

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