These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Incursions as PvP:

First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#1 - 2015-08-20 17:04:28 UTC
Whats the idea behind super bling ships being immunized against PvP by HS sector rules, when all those rules do is impair everyone else's PvE in that system?

Also whats the idea in 10+ ships with uberbling fittings farming HS most lucrative activity with no PvP risk?

Should Incursion fleets fight each other for access to profit, as does everyone else in EVE?

Discuss.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#2 - 2015-08-20 17:11:15 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Discuss.

No.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#3 - 2015-08-20 17:11:56 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whats the idea behind super bling ships being immunized against PvP by HS sector rules, when all those rules do is impair everyone else's PvE in that system?

Also whats the idea in 10+ ships with uberbling fittings farming HS most lucrative activity with no PvP risk?

Should Incursion fleets fight each other for access to profit, as does everyone else in EVE?

Discuss.

Don't worry. Soon with Drifters and thier doomsday weapon replacing the Sansha as the villains in highsec incursions, bling boats will be a thing of the past.

I agree, a PvP solution would be more in keeping with the type of game Eve is, but I'll take guaranteed ship loss by way of NPCs as an alternative mechanism to increase risk.

Hopefully CCP will also tweak things to encourage more competition and less collusion by groups to farm in the upcoming incursion revamp.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-08-20 17:21:18 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whats the idea behind super bling ships being immunized against PvP by HS sector rules, when all those rules do is impair everyone else's PvE in that system?

Also whats the idea in 10+ ships with uberbling fittings farming HS most lucrative activity with no PvP risk?

Should Incursion fleets fight each other for access to profit, as does everyone else in EVE?

Discuss.


None of the incursion ship are immune to PvP. The barrier of entry to kill them is just higher.

Everybody that run incursion bling based on their perceived risk. If you up the risk, the bling will go down because it can more easily be lost.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-08-20 17:22:23 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whats the idea behind super bling ships being immunized against PvP by HS sector rules, when all those rules do is impair everyone else's PvE in that system?

Also whats the idea in 10+ ships with uberbling fittings farming HS most lucrative activity with no PvP risk?

Should Incursion fleets fight each other for access to profit, as does everyone else in EVE?

Discuss.

Don't worry. Soon with Drifters and thier doomsday weapon replacing the Sansha as the villains in highsec incursions, bling boats will be a thing of the past.

I agree, a PvP solution would be more in keeping with the type of game Eve is, but I'll take guaranteed ship loss by way of NPCs as an alternative mechanism to increase risk.

Hopefully CCP will also tweak things to encourage more competition and less collusion by groups to farm in the upcoming incursion revamp.


If CCP didn't want player to farm incursion, they could of reduced the number to only 1 spawned in HS at a time max. It's almost like people think those stuff cannot be changed in the game and they stay as is just because they were made that way.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#6 - 2015-08-20 17:48:20 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If CCP didn't want player to farm incursion, they could of reduced the number to only 1 spawned in HS at a time max. It's almost like people think those stuff cannot be changed in the game and they stay as is just because they were made that way.

Indeed, CCP can change things. And they are doing just that with these Drifter Incursions.

Change is in the air, and I am very curious, and optimistic, at what CCP is doing with this new content. I expect incursions to look much different once CCP is done with this revamp.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-08-20 17:53:02 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If CCP didn't want player to farm incursion, they could of reduced the number to only 1 spawned in HS at a time max. It's almost like people think those stuff cannot be changed in the game and they stay as is just because they were made that way.

Indeed, CCP can change things. And they are doing just that with these Drifter Incursions.

Change is in the air, and I am very curious, and optimistic, at what CCP is doing with this new content. I expect incursions to look much different once CCP is done with this revamp.


It probably will. Then people will figure out fits to maximise the completion time while minimizing the risk of ship loss to an acceptable level and the farming will resume.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#8 - 2015-08-20 18:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Frostys Virpio wrote:

It probably will. Then people will figure out fits to maximise the completion time while minimizing the risk of ship loss to an acceptable level and the farming will resume.

The farming will. But at least the Drifter doomsday will serve as a check on bling ships and CCP has shown the ability and willingness to tune the Drifters as players figure them out which should keep things less static than the current Sansha bad guys. Perhaps the added risk will make other forms of income more attractive now.

It's not perfect, but it is better than what we have now.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-08-20 18:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
How are any ships "immunized" in any way during an incursion that doesn't apply to any other ships? They function within the same rule set, nothing is different.

Also what sort of "fighting each other" do other PvE professions contain that you feel isn't present in an incursion? Having done a few I've found there is very little in the way of ship to ship combat in the content itself and the competition on the market with resources gained, ask and LP, is no different from other comparable activities.

Edit: Actually I would think Incursions allow for greater PvP through the ability to contest a fleet in a site and deny them any payout if you win and can be done in any site, while the same can't be said of shooting alongside someone at mission or anomaly rats.

@Black Pedro: That's still pretty speculative. It makes an interesting theory, but who knows the extent of the features intent. Time will tell I suppose.

Though if I had to speculate you were right, they simply won't be run outside of RP. It takes 1-2 hours of incursion running to buy and fit/rig a T1 BS depending on the fleet, after insurance that's still going to be about a half hour for a rigged BS. Unless these pay of a T2 fit T1 BS in the course of a couple sites, they're an isk loss on a personal level.

Maybe they'll work for groups that can manage pooling the isk and paying out after loss reimbursement, but the days of PUGs and farming would be more or less over.
Salvos Rhoska
#10 - 2015-08-20 18:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Frostys Virpio wrote:

None of the incursion ship are immune to PvP. The barrier of entry to kill them is just higher.

Everybody that run incursion bling based on their perceived risk. If you up the risk, the bling will go down because it can more easily be lost.


Nominally, yes. Nobody is secure, aywhere in EVE.

But we are talking about enormously bling ships,in entire fleets, in HS, who operate with impunity, to some of HS greatest consistent isk/hr avilable in HS, or anywhere else.

Incursion systems currently disenfrachise local residents, due to Incursion system wide modifiers.

The systems are already compromised by the Incursion, to the detriment of everyone except Incursion fleets.

A reduction in PvP flag/security status is not unreasonable in Incursion systems.
The profit these fleets make, with full bling, in HS security, is irreconcilable with EVE ethics.

The Incursion NPC mechanics are insufficient to defeat thw, or apply risk.
It has to come from a player base, either in terms of a non-aggressive equivalent competing fleet, or, as I propose, by means of PvP restrictions being lifted in that system for the durarion of the Incursion.

Its wrong how much isk these guys are making, with no PvP recourse.
They are making a laughingstock of EVE, day after day.

Change to allow PvP intervention in these Incnursion systems is crucial.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-08-20 18:43:39 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Nominally, yes. Nobody is secure, aywhere in EVE.

But we are talking about enormously bling ships,in entire fleets, in HS, who operate with impunity, to some of HS greatest consistent isk/hr avilable in HS, or anywhere else.

Incursion systems currently disenfrachise local residents, due to Incursion system wide modifiers.

The systems are already compromised by the Incursion, to the detriment of everyone except Incursion fleets.

A reduction in PvP flag/security status is not unreasonable in Incursion systems.
The profit these fleets make, with full bling, in HS security, is irreconcilable with EVE ethics.

The Incursion NPC mechanics are insufficient to defeat thw, or apply risk.
It has to come from a player base, either in terms of a non-aggressive equivalent competing fleet, or, as I propose, by means of PvP restrictions being lifted in that system for the durarion of the Incursion.

Its wrong how much isk these guys are making, with no PvP recourse.
They are making a laughingstock of EVE, day after day.

Change to allow PvP intervention in these Incnursion systems is crucial.

The application of risk to blinged ships has always required players to work around or with security mechanics in any given space, why should Incursions be any different? Their ability to act with impunity only exist so long as other players allow it.

The NPC factor isn't there to add risk, but rather effort on the group as a whole for efficient completion.

The effect on local residents is irrelevant though as that has everything to do with mechanics outside of player control and nothing to do with the ships and players that run the incursion.
Salvos Rhoska
#12 - 2015-08-20 18:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How are any ships "immunized" in any way during an incursion that doesn't apply to any other ships? They function within the same rule set, nothing is different.


Within a HS ruleset, which enables huge fleets of multibillion ships.

Furthermore, Incursion systems are not typical, and apply various effects which are not universal, except in the specific system, and ultimately disenfranchise only its other PvE centric occupants and force them out.

Incursion systems are not "HS rule set".

Considering that, it makes it possible to enable PvP between fleets under exceptional rules, inorder to benefit from that exceptional rule set.

Its sick how much Incursion fleets earn currently, and even more sick what ships they fly, with no exception to engagement rules.

Incursion systems, with their specific rules/exceptions, and highly modified and specific fleeta, and enormous profits, offer a very real possibility for integrating PvP into HS in these specific circumstances.

So many multibillion ships, earning so much, in HS with specific rules but no PvP opportunity, is antithetical to EVE.

Its wrong. I understand you have a vested interest in it, but nonetheless, objectively, it makes no goddam sense in the game we are playing,

Self-interest aside, it makes no sense.
Incursions, as a meeting of multibillion ships, in a system with different rules, for HS greatest profits, should be engageable by other player aggressively.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-08-20 19:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Within a HS ruleset, which enables huge fleets of multibillion ships.
Ok, that's not incursion specific. A BS fleet with logi support has no reason to become more vulnerable for being in an incursion than anywhere else of similar security status.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Furthermore, Incursion systems are not typical, and apply various effects which are not universal, except in the specific system, and ultimately disenfranchise only its other PvE centric occupants and force them out.
This has nothing to do with the incursion runners as stated. These are the mechanics of the Incursion as created by CCP. And the effects described have no effect on the safety of the ships whatsoever.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Incursion systems are not "HS rule set".

Considering that, it makes it possible to enable PvP between fleets under exceptional rules, inorder to benefit from that exceptional rule set.
They are very much a highsec rule set. Nothing is changed regarding aggression mechanics that allow other players to interfere. Rather, the only thing introduced is the ability to more effectively interfere by running the content in a competing group. Incursion mechanics allow more PvP, not less.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Its sick how much Incursion fleets earn currently, and even more sick what ships they fly, with no exception to engagement rules.

Incursion systems, with their specific rules/exceptions, and highly modified and specific fleeta, and enormous profits, offer a very real possibility for integrating PvP into HS in these specific circumstances.
The possibility for PvP already exists as it does everywhere else. As stated above there is no reason a BS fleet with logi support should be made more vulnerable despite what system security suggest, nor does any other form of PvE make those that engage in it more susceptible to attack than they would be using the same ships and fits elsewhere.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-08-20 19:14:42 UTC
New incursion effect in highsec: CONCORD response time increases to 60 seconds, irregardless of system sec level.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2015-08-20 19:19:36 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
New incursion effect in highsec: CONCORD response time increases to 60 seconds, irregardless of system sec level.

Why should those transiting through or out of the constellation for no gain be penalized?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#16 - 2015-08-20 19:40:00 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Why should those transiting through or out of the constellation for no gain be penalized?

A better question is why does it need to change considering ganks to occur in incursion systems already. And ships do die running incursions.
The whining is just because groups spent years learning to do things efficiently while fending off the gankers, and have actually learnt, that they fly in fleets and use teamwork, and that they are at their computer.
Rather than solo AFK Autopiloting.
It's amazing how when people do the things gankers always tell them they should, that gankers cry they are now too hard to gank.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#17 - 2015-08-20 19:55:04 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Also whats the idea in 10+ ships with uberbling fittings farming HS most lucrative activity with no PvP risk?

There's always a PVP risk.

It's not that it's high sec. It's that it's cheaper and safer for the risk averse elites to shoot barges, freighters and noobships. The PVP pilots with talent and skill go to low and null. The dregs stay in high sec and they'll never go after something that might shoot back.

Don't complain about high sec. Complain about the useless PVP pilots that choose to farm the helpless instead of looking for fights and taking a little risk once in a while.

Mr Epeen Cool
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-08-20 19:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
It is the predictability of incursions that make them low risk. When we had started incursion, the mechanics were unknown. Ships died. We focused on versatility and survivability. Utility support for the weaknesses. Bling exists only because people know the outcome in advance. If once you were in, anything could happen, that is a whole nother ball game. The power is there, but is just on rails.

It doesnt need pvp if the pve risk is there. In addition if the risk outweighed the isk, wouldnt be done at all. Force people to pvp, they would go back to missions. Force runners to pvp and then they quit. No pve people means no isk for anybody. Only make money off markets and nullsec materials because somebody pved the isk into existence. I guess there would still be ratting, but that is so boring pve people would just quit.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2015-08-20 20:04:15 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

None of the incursion ship are immune to PvP. The barrier of entry to kill them is just higher.

Everybody that run incursion bling based on their perceived risk. If you up the risk, the bling will go down because it can more easily be lost.


Nominally, yes. Nobody is secure, aywhere in EVE.

But we are talking about enormously bling ships,in entire fleets, in HS, who operate with impunity, to some of HS greatest consistent isk/hr avilable in HS, or anywhere else.

Incursion systems currently disenfrachise local residents, due to Incursion system wide modifiers.

The systems are already compromised by the Incursion, to the detriment of everyone except Incursion fleets.

A reduction in PvP flag/security status is not unreasonable in Incursion systems.
The profit these fleets make, with full bling, in HS security, is irreconcilable with EVE ethics.

The Incursion NPC mechanics are insufficient to defeat thw, or apply risk.
It has to come from a player base, either in terms of a non-aggressive equivalent competing fleet, or, as I propose, by means of PvP restrictions being lifted in that system for the durarion of the Incursion.

Its wrong how much isk these guys are making, with no PvP recourse.
They are making a laughingstock of EVE, day after day.

Change to allow PvP intervention in these Incnursion systems is crucial.


What is preventing you from engaging in PvP with an incursion runner exactly?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-08-20 20:15:47 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
New incursion effect in highsec: CONCORD response time increases to 60 seconds, irregardless of system sec level.

Why should those transiting through or out of the constellation for no gain be penalized?

Because there's an incursion. Why shouldn't they be penalized?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

123Next pageLast page