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CCP/CSM Round Table: Jump Fatigue

First post
Author
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#21 - 2015-08-06 14:43:11 UTC
Do you feel that jump fatigue hurts the casual gamer who only has an hour to play a night and therefore has to rack up larger amounts of fatigue over a shorter period of time is fair? (I for example can play 1 hour a night on weekdays)

Would you be considering to have a severe reduction or removal of jump fatigue for jumping back to the system you originally came from? Considering that the whole thing was put ingame to stop capital gangs travelling to other regions at a rapid pace i dont see how this prevents it and would help with local capital warfare and moving ops GREATLY.

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#22 - 2015-08-06 14:43:12 UTC
Which issues can CCP currently identify with the existing jump mechanics?
i.e.
What are the significant problems/weaknesses with the current jump mechanics as from the perspective of CCP?
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2015-08-06 14:52:13 UTC
Does CCP have a metric on rough number of subscriptions lost due to Pheobe changes?

Pheobe and ISBoxer ban were so close, it may not be able to split those 2 out though....
Thalen Draganos
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2015-08-06 14:52:33 UTC
One thing that I think should be added is a reduction of jump bridge fatigue based on index levels. That would encourage people to use their space even more. Added benefits are always a motivator for over all usage.
Thalen Draganos
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2015-08-06 14:55:09 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Does CCP have a metric on rough number of subscriptions lost due to Pheobe changes?

Pheobe and ISBoxer ban were so close, it may not be able to split those 2 out though....

ISBoxer wasn't banned as a whole but the keyboard and click broadcasting feature was. If I remember correctly, ISBoxer automatically disables that feature when eve is used with it. I could be wrong on that front though.
Niraia
The Red Island Foundation
#26 - 2015-08-06 14:56:25 UTC
How did CCP think fatigue would affect players in lowsec who like to use capitals, and why does it seem like our playstyle is, of late, being consistently **** on when their intent appears to be fixing sov nullsec issues?

Does CCP think that the balance team have the manpower and capability necessary to balance this game when so many veteran players seem to doubt it and unsubscribe?

drunklies
The Red Island Foundation
#27 - 2015-08-06 14:56:27 UTC
Is CCP willing to consider changes to the base mechanic, or are they more interested in tweaking timers and exceptions?


Change of mechanic example: jumping once out generates fatigue, but returning to the system (via gates or jumps) that you started in will give a significant fatigue reduction. Jumping from your home generates fatigue, jumping again away from home generates exponentially more fatigue. Jumping back towards home only generates the standard amount of fatigue, and the final jump home results in a significant reduction in the total amount of fatigue.

Balance could be an increased amount of fatigue gained when heading further from your home, but fatigue should be capped at 24 hours cooldown. It can still climb for the purposes of increasing the jump reactivation timer, but losing a month of capital/jumpbridge/titanbrige playtime is very harsh.

Subtle plug ^^^
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-08-06 14:56:39 UTC
There are two camps. First camp is the people who are against hot drop central where people would drop a dozen capitals to kill... A ratting drake. http://m.imgur.com/r/Eve/BVXTA

The other is the group that believes thst capital gameplay is the only gameplay. Many in fact play eve solely to drop capitals on people (I mean that is their sole root in this game, they do nothing nor want to do nothing but drop capitals on everything and anything 24 hours a day 7 days a week across the entire universe). They argue that their gameplay and style of play has been destroyed because of fatigue and jump range changes.

In other words, bat phone does not instantly mean super capital drop from across the universe anymore. Fights are more regionalized and bat phones equal more subcaps vs instant super drop.

Not even a year ago, the main method of alliance hunting revolved around having an army sit on a Titan in a pos for 15 hours a day while a pair of guys warped around with a point and cyno. If they found something, point, light bulb. Does ccp want to return to this rootless gameplay? Do the players want to return to sitting on a Titans butt for 5 hours waiting for notice of "we found a drake?" "Did the players all say that this was fun???

The cold wars are ending, the old regimes are dying, the troops are leaving. They want the cold wars back because... They had absolute control and owned everything.

Nobody likes it when their power is curtailed.

Jump Fatigue expanded the eve universe 4 fold, and people want to shrink it again.

You really want to effect change and player attitude (on the self destructing capitals camp), would CCP consider the removal of insuring carriers and dreads?

Yaay!!!!

Kael Attrell
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2015-08-06 15:08:35 UTC
Thanks to the smashing success of jump fatigue, Merch Industrial Consulting Services has developed similar additional mechanics for CCP to consider.

We suggest:

  • Fleet Warp Fatigue - Every time a fleet is fleet warped, every member of that fleet receives fatigue that prevents them from being fleet warped. This will drastically increase the requirements for individual player piloting skill.
  • Ship Hull Fatigue - Every time you die in a ship, you should receive fatigue that prevents you from entering a ship of that hull type. This will drastically increase ship diversity.
  • Market Fatigue - Every time you modify an order, you should receive fatigue that prevents you from modifying another order. This is actually a good idea.


Specifically regarding jump fatigue, our main interest will be in CCP's rationalization behind how a given change is intended to affect player behavior.
Robnik Charante
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#30 - 2015-08-06 15:14:28 UTC
Phoebe jump mechanics have introduced natural chokepoints in regional geography. Post-Phoebe, smaller groups can in some cases feasibly use capitals by properly monitoring and controlling these chokepoint systems without fear of being blindsided. A consequence of this is that some groups will find their capital fleets trapped in a region if they become surrounded by hostiles. Other groups sometimes find the effort of moving not worth the trouble, even if it could be done safely. The result is that capitals are often confined to a region without much hope of ever leaving. Is this a case of jump mechanics working as intended, or does CCP hope to make the movement of capitals out of a region more viable? Does CCP ever intend to introduce something that can replicate the functionality of a pre-Phoebe suitcase carrier?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#31 - 2015-08-06 15:15:55 UTC
Kael Attrell wrote:
Thanks to the smashing success of jump fatigue, Merch Industrial Consulting Services has developed similar additional mechanics for CCP to consider.

We suggest:

  • Fleet Warp Fatigue - Every time a fleet is fleet warped, every member of that fleet receives fatigue that prevents them from being fleet warped. This will drastically increase the requirements for individual player piloting skill.
  • Ship Hull Fatigue - Every time you die in a ship, you should receive fatigue that prevents you from entering a ship of that hull type. This will drastically increase ship diversity.
  • Market Fatigue - Every time you modify an order, you should receive fatigue that prevents you from modifying another order. This is actually a good idea.


Specifically regarding jump fatigue, our main interest will be in CCP's rationalization behind how a given change is intended to affect player behavior.


I actually like that last one.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Zverofaust
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-08-06 15:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Zverofaust
1) "Who in CCP actually thought it was actually a good idea to use boredom and tedium as a balancing factor in a video game?"

2) "Why haven't they been fired?"
Hendrink Collie
Contra Ratio
DARKNESS.
#33 - 2015-08-06 15:30:52 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kael Attrell wrote:
Thanks to the smashing success of jump fatigue, Merch Industrial Consulting Services has developed similar additional mechanics for CCP to consider.

We suggest:

  • Fleet Warp Fatigue - Every time a fleet is fleet warped, every member of that fleet receives fatigue that prevents them from being fleet warped. This will drastically increase the requirements for individual player piloting skill.
  • Ship Hull Fatigue - Every time you die in a ship, you should receive fatigue that prevents you from entering a ship of that hull type. This will drastically increase ship diversity.
  • Market Fatigue - Every time you modify an order, you should receive fatigue that prevents you from modifying another order. This is actually a good idea.


Specifically regarding jump fatigue, our main interest will be in CCP's rationalization behind how a given change is intended to affect player behavior.


I actually like that last one.


That's not a terrible idea... but then again, I don't think the best way to fix things is to add fatigue to them. Maybe just further extend the wait time of modifying a single item. Five minutes ( i think ? ) seems too short for a single item.
Tappits
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2015-08-06 15:36:26 UTC
I am just going to say i am semi happy with the changes and yes its a pain to move but then moving something the size of a small town should be.
Thalen Draganos
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2015-08-06 15:39:02 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
There are two camps. First camp is the people who are against hot drop central where people would drop a dozen capitals to kill... A ratting drake. http://m.imgur.com/r/Eve/BVXTA

That was 3 years ago in lowsec on a station. Why didn't the drake just dock?

Phoenix Jones wrote:
The other is the group that believes thst capital gameplay is the only gameplay. Many in fact play eve solely to drop capitals on people (I mean that is their sole root in this game, they do nothing nor want to do nothing but drop capitals on everything and anything 24 hours a day 7 days a week across the entire universe). They argue that their gameplay and style of play has been destroyed because of fatigue and jump range changes.

Those who do not adapt, fade away.

Phoenix Jones wrote:
In other words, bat phone does not instantly mean super capital drop from across the universe anymore. Fights are more regionalized and bat phones equal more subcaps vs instant super drop.

We do it all the time but within our own region due to the range nerf.

Phoenix Jones wrote:
Not even a year ago, the main method of alliance hunting revolved around having an army sit on a Titan in a pos for 15 hours a day while a pair of guys warped around with a point and cyno. If they found something, point, light bulb. Does ccp want to return to this rootless gameplay? Do the players want to return to sitting on a Titans butt for 5 hours waiting for notice of "we found a drake?" "Did the players all say that this was fun???

Those were more than likely alts, sitting there while they play on other characters. No one would sit their only viable character on a titan for 15 hours unless they were doing something else. Attention spans are not that strong.

Phoenix Jones wrote:
The cold wars are ending, the old regimes are dying, the troops are leaving. They want the cold wars back because... They had absolute control and owned everything.

The cold wars have been over for a long time. Especially after the jump range/fatigue changes. The huge, news worthy, battles are over. They will never happen again. Thnx CCP. P
The only "regimes" that are dying or gone and forgotten are the ones that failed to adapt to the changes over the years.
The troops are leaving? huh? Do you mean all of the alts that people used to be able to use?
Why would those of us that survived the changes want things back the way they were? Deklein is a literal fortress thanks to CCP and we are actually using our space.
I just had a few questions about your post and thought I would clarify some things for you. No pissy attitude implied
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2015-08-06 15:40:45 UTC
Is CCP happy (or even aware) with how the changes altered Jump Bridge usage?

Would CCP consider changes that rightfully prevent eye-of-terror multi-region jump highways, but allow a return of in-region mobility (ie, like no fatigue for in-constellation bridge jumps, greatly reduced fatigue for jumps between neighbouring constellations, and slightly reduced fatigue for in-region between non-neighbouring constellations)?
Lim Yoona
#37 - 2015-08-06 15:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lim Yoona
Q: I have long since sold all my capitals and capital pilots as they are not in a good place right now..is there a chance that we could ever get back closer to the way things were?

My feeling is that the problem before was archon blobs and supercap blobs crossing the map in minutes. Yeah that was a problem and screwed up the game. I feel like the fatigue approach was too heavy-handed in that it penalized ALL SHIPS WITH A JUMP DRIVE and not the blob.

I would suggest an alternative to the current system: the more caps in fleet = the more fatigue you accrue. Make it really really hard for a 250 archon blob to cross the map, kinda like the way it is now, but let a solo guy move himself fine.

Some would say: welp everybody would just move their cap blobs without being in fleet, but then think of the logistical nightmares of everyone needing their own cyno and not being able to coordinate and defend well against a trap or drop. Thanks for taking another look at this.
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2015-08-06 15:46:41 UTC
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
Why are we asking CCP questions. A question is a really strange way to share feedback or experiences, shouldn't the developers be asking US questions?

It's rather passive aggressive to have to warp an experience that demonstrates the negatives of jump fatigue, like a group finding it easier to self destruct a capital fleet, into a question.

"Do you think it's a good things that players have decided it's easier to self destruct capitals than move them?"

That ends up much more sarcastic sounding than it needs to be.


Oh hey, my training in parliamentary debate finally comes in handy:

"Would the honorable gentleman not agree that a mechanic which encourages self-destructing large assets rather than moving them is suboptimal?"

My own question: can you give us statistics about the use of black ops (jumps and bridges) in the month before fatigue and the month after? Are you happy with the effect fatigue had on their use?
Mart Jorringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2015-08-06 15:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mart Jorringer
Basil Vulpine wrote:
In the run up to the round table are CCP able to release any stats so that we can potentially put our personal experiences in to context?

- How often have various fatigue thresholds been reached in each of the months split by ship type.
- Number of jumps made split by ship type.
- For cap fights above some meaningful threshold what was the fatigue min / mean / max fatigue of pilots on their final jump before combat.
- For various fatigue thresholds, if the pilot stopped jumping after hitting that threshold how long was it before it logged in / undocked again?

There are likely other stats that would be useful which others will think of.


Two main statistics I'm interested in:


  • Average amount of jumps per player (per month or week for example) before and after the change,
  • Actual cap use before and after the change (maybe from killboard data or some other internal CCP source)


And a question:

would it be possible to maybe differentiate for fatigue timers between jumps to normal beacons and covert beacons?
Hendrink Collie
Contra Ratio
DARKNESS.
#40 - 2015-08-06 15:47:25 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Is CCP happy (or even aware) with how the changes altered Jump Bridge usage?

Would CCP consider changes that rightfully prevent eye-of-terror multi-region jump highways, but allow a return of in-region mobility (ie, like no fatigue for in-constellation bridge jumps, greatly reduced fatigue for jumps between neighbouring constellations, and slightly reduced fatigue for in-region between non-neighbouring constellations)?


That sounds pretty awesome; however, that sounds like a system that can be abused rather easily. I've got a couple fun ideas already. Cool