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CCP/CSM Round Table: Jump Fatigue

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Pandemic Horde
#221 - 2015-08-13 10:28:47 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then?

Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who?

Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person.

m

The absence of new talking points was the problem. There has been continuous feedback ever since Phoebe (posts, blogs, reddit, podcasts) so why they thought a specific feedback session now would yield any new fruit is beyond me. The mere act of calling for feedback at this late stage is aggravating because it makes people feel they have been ignored up to now.

They should have made a few announcements which gave an indication of what they are thinking of doing beforehand, preferably at a concept level rather than specific figures which people could get bogged down in. If they truly wanted feedback they should have done homework - there was plenty of it around.

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Minmatar Republic
#222 - 2015-08-13 11:04:52 UTC
As we're speaking of communication problems, I'd like to express my concern here.
It often looks like CCP knew for years that there were some specific problem, but they could not find any solution for it - and thus just let it rot. They have tools like statistics to detect those problems, and they are not biased, so it's not a surprise if CCP and player-base have different view on which are real issues and which are not.

But once CCP detects the problem, why dont they come out to forums and say: "Folks, we need some help, could you give us a brainstorm regarding that thing?" Brainstorming with a group of non-experts is a valid approach and why they deprive themselves of that option - I have no idea.

I dont have much to prove myself right, and maybe it's just an illusion. But as an example, I remember CCP Greyscale wanted to implement unified fuel blocks for POSes for quite a while, but didnt know how to make a transition. I bet if he asked it on forums, the solution would've been found the same day. EVE players are very inventive ;-)
Goonswarm Federation
#223 - 2015-08-13 11:20:21 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
[quote=knobber Jobbler]

Out of curiousity, How would it have been better set up, then?

Please remember that CCP does not plan on announcing new things at informal q and a sessions. But would you decide to select a small crew of players excluding the larger population as not being worthy of having the floor? Exclude anybody who has not FC'd?. Who?

Or maybe it would have been better if we moderated more sternly . . . wander off topic, *shachchack BOOM* on to the next person.

m


The level of moderation was not the problem.

It really is an issue of the wrong people asking the questions. If CCP wants feedback they should be asking us questions.

You have to realize that holding a session to get feedback for a mechanic change that has literally stopped people from logging into certain accounts, is going to be contentious. The attitude going in from CCP needed to be immensely more humble and they needed to have far less hubris. I think part of the defensive attitude comes directly from Dev's feeling like they are constantly on the defensive.

It's pretty terrible to have an event where supposedly the devs are looking for feedback where they outright reject questions large parts of the community have had to ponder, because they are so out of touch they think the question is unreasonable. If this wasn't presented as a question and instead simply as an experience and CCP actually asked follow up questions that could be better.

But it's hard to say because as we heard with the BL dread self destruction example, CCP can also have a tendency to just right things off as "those crazy kids"
Amarr Empire
#224 - 2015-08-13 11:36:54 UTC
CCP Killing eve so we all go buy Valkyrie ....Remembers promises of world of darkness....another ccp success,successfully failed.start listening to your fan-base ccp or your going to end up like your games,dying


will not be purchasing any more of ccp products

Does CCP mean crap coding people

Goonswarm Federation
#225 - 2015-08-13 12:23:49 UTC
I actually just thought of a better way to illustrate some of the issues with yesterdays discussion.

One of the big major face palm moments I remember for the player base was the assertion by the Dev's that Phoebe had little effect on the possibilities of something like B-R happening again. CCP Fozzie's thesis, was that B-R happened because two large super capital groups were deployed near each other. He then cited the NC./Darkness vs Imperium conflict in Fountain/Delve earlier this year as an example that two large super groups can still come together and that we were basically a spark away from another B-R.

The problem is he is missing the aspect of the player experience surrounding that Fountain/Delve deployment. The move ops to and back from that region have shaped players views far more than any fighting that did or didn't happen. Moving down was painful and took more than a week. Moving back was just as bad and those people who missed the first move op and wound up in the second op on our side, were dropped by BL. Anyone who missed both was now faced with the solo move prospect.

Now argue about the specifics of that all you want. But the very act of many of us going through that move put in serious questions as to whether we would ever want to do that again. The very thing that Fozzie is citing as an example, is actually a better example for the players involved as to why Phoebe hurts the possibilities of a B-R style fight.

Now devs can't see the individual experience of players. But stepping back and listening to player feedback might help them see a different side of a scenario that they have already formed an opinion on.
Rate My Ticks
#226 - 2015-08-13 14:09:54 UTC
In the http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/phoebe-travel-change-update/ blog post it was said: "This blog describes the final state of affairs for what is shipping in Phoebe – barring catastrophe we will not be making further adjustments."

Does this mean that CCP is acknowledging that something catastrophic has happened to the game/playerbase on account of jump fatigue since the release of Phoebe?
The Pursuit of Happiness
#227 - 2015-08-13 14:13:24 UTC
"There is only one boss. The customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else."
-Sam Walton

I was extremely impressed by how little CCP seemed to appreciated the concerns of the player base yesterday. On top of the demeaning remarks made towards the CSM I was also surprised by the arrogance presented by a few members of CCP. I get it though, CCP had the tone of feeling ambushed so instead of providing logical defusing comments they had emotional reactions.

Hopefully CCP will walk away from this experience motivated knowing that the EVE player base still cares about the game and wants change to happen for the better. If we can take anything from this experience it should be that the PLAYERS were PREPARED, CCP was NOT.

*An observation: Eve has a very high "average age" and there are quite a few experienced professional amongst the ranks. When CCP tries to talk down to their player base they should expect what we are seeing now. This is a space sim full of IT nerds, the players aren't stupid.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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#228 - 2015-08-13 15:25:47 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
"There is only one boss. The customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else."
-Sam Walton

This is wrong about this statement: One boss means one person vs. the customer in case of EVE means maybe about 50k people. And no, 50k people do not share the same view on this matter.

Zeus Maximo wrote:

I was extremely impressed by how little CCP seemed to appreciated the concerns of the player base yesterday. On top of the demeaning remarks made towards the CSM I was also surprised by the arrogance presented by a few members of CCP.

I did listen to all of the soundcloud and I could not find any arrogance on behalf of CCP or any Dev. Could you repeat such a statement?

Zeus Maximo wrote:

*An observation: Eve has a very high "average age" and there are quite a few experienced professional amongst the ranks. When CCP tries to talk down to their player base they should expect what we are seeing now. This is a space sim full of IT nerds, the players aren't stupid.

Again, I did not hear any answers of CCP, that would imply stupidity of a player.
The Pursuit of Happiness
#229 - 2015-08-13 17:15:19 UTC
Lim Hiaret wrote:

Could you repeat such a statement?


Everyone hears things differently. I don't expect you to think the same way I do either. What I posted was my opinion to CCP therefore validating my opinion to you is useless.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Shadow Cartel
#230 - 2015-08-13 20:09:23 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Lim Hiaret wrote:

Could you repeat such a statement?


Everyone hears things differently. I don't expect you to think the same way I do either. What I posted was my opinion to CCP therefore validating my opinion to you is useless.


In other words Zeus cant back his statement up and is trying desperately not to look like a total fool.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

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The Pursuit of Happiness
#231 - 2015-08-13 20:29:34 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Lim Hiaret wrote:

Could you repeat such a statement?


Everyone hears things differently. I don't expect you to think the same way I do either. What I posted was my opinion to CCP therefore validating my opinion to you is useless.


In other words Zeus cant back his statement up and is trying desperately not to look like a total fool.


This thread isn't about me so I'm trying to keep you all on topic. Smile

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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#232 - 2015-08-14 07:19:29 UTC
Does anyone have the statistics that CCP Larrikin linked at the end of the discussion?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

The Pursuit of Happiness
#233 - 2015-08-14 13:30:13 UTC
To the Discussion

CCP Larrikin started his thread there and the statistics are linked.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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#234 - 2015-08-15 09:47:27 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
To the Discussion

CCP Larrikin started his thread there and the statistics are linked.


Thank you. Not sure why I didn't see it in that thread.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Goonswarm Federation
#235 - 2015-08-15 15:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)


I really think that these two simple changes would make a huge improvement not only for general quality of life in null-sec, but to encourage a bit more content. Imagine this:

  • All ships that currently have a 2.5ly base range are bumped up to 3-4ly (6-8ly max). Perhaps boost Blops to 5ly too.
  • Being in your alliance's capital system (or better yet, constellation containing the capital) causes some large benefit to jump fatigue (but not jump cooldown). Either it decays much faster, vanishes completely after a fixed time, whatever.

Now any alliance will have the ability to project force quite quickly around their core systems, but still cannot venture too far across the map. Other alliances who currently base in NPC null-sec that want to invade, or simply just mess with nearby groups, will have a major incentive to carve out a little nearby system for themselves to gain these benefits also. This in turn is a nice little recipe for conflict.


Alyxportur wrote:
In the http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/phoebe-travel-change-update/ blog post it was said: "This blog describes the final state of affairs for what is shipping in Phoebe – barring catastrophe we will not be making further adjustments."

Does this mean that CCP is acknowledging that something catastrophic has happened to the game/playerbase on account of jump fatigue since the release of Phoebe?


I'm reading that as "we won't make further changes to this before Phoebe releases". Greyscale and other devs were quite clear that they wanted to make other adjustments to long distance travel in future, especially reducing the range of jump freighters once other changes had been made to allow for easier logistics.
Caldari State
#236 - 2015-08-18 17:22:57 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Folks, I am one of the people helping to collect the questions. So you know? I IGNORE people who cannot follow basic instructions. I am collecting questions. If you write some commands of what you want done I will pass over you and go on to the next person. This is NOT your oppostunity to give orders it is an q and a session.

Now I know you lot are intelligent enough to write specific ideas in the form of questions and I welcome that. Flat out CCP do Dis. Just won't make the cut.

. . .

any questions?

m

Has it been looked at on how much of this jump fatigue is making the cost of plex stay at it's current rate?

How about the flow of mins , materials and items in and out of Null?
#237 - 2015-09-01 15:17:22 UTC
Holy **** why have you not done something to jump fatigue yet.

It's September already...

Not today spaghetti.

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