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Skill Discussions

 
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[NPE] Skill re-allocation for new players

First post
Author
Horza Tareem
Paranoia Overload
Intrepid Heroes
#1 - 2015-06-30 15:44:29 UTC
Hello.

Let's get some stuff out of the way first. I know this "****" pops on like once a week. I know a "simple search" would show me it is so. I know the copypasta of why "skill reset is bad"

Let's start with the latter:

Quote:
Tippia wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.



Then the thread list (which I've read + several more which I haven't listed):



I find all your answers to those proposals pertinent (most of them in the range of "No." to "No ******* way!").
This is because resetting skill points for everyone is a bad idea and should never happen in EVE (barring some major systems changes) - a statement with which I concur wholeheartedly.

Having said that, I find the new player experience lacking because of this situation. In order for the game to survive, new players are needed and they're up for grabs. Currently the NPE is enhanced by a tutorial system, some tutorial missions, the opportunity system and (to a lesser extent) the mastery/certificates system.

However, the Aura tutorial and the tutorial missions (including the SoE arc) are done in probably a day, if you are new to the game. Say a week if you only play sparingly and you need instructions on how to operate a gui.

The real problem, I find, faces the new player when he tries to go beyond the early PVE part of the game and starts going into player-created content, which is a shifty ************. Doctrine ships, fitting requirements for them, t2 weapons/tank, not even mentioning the personal skill involved in piloting.

Instead of dipping his toe in everything and picking his flavor, a new player is usually stuck in boring/expendable roles - tackler, scout, etc. What if you want to try your hand at higher classes of ships, at some point? You don't even know how if flies, how would you know whether you want to commit 10 days to learning BS 4 (in one faction, mind you!) . What if you don't like projectile weapons? What if you want to use missiles, because you heard they're noob friendly?

What if you (most common, of what I saw) decide to mine because it's chill like that and at some point you end up with useless 1mil sp - I know you have a different interpretation of skill usage - but to a new player that is the difference between staying or going. I know I've been there and decided to go on, but ever time I come up on a bad decision like this it rips a piece of my heart. I'm currently at 12-13mil sp and have some ****** skills that would've best been used somewhere else.

Anyways, I digress.

My proposal is this :


  • Allow for re-allocation of a maximum of 10mil sp, once per character,
  • Available right after you learned those 10mil sp (not before so you don't mess up).
  • The cost may be whatever (it might even be free).
  • You will select which skills you want to "drain". When a skill reaches 0 sp in this way it is downgraded to the inferior rank (taking into account skill unlocking restrictions)
  • If a skill reaches 0 sp at rank 1 it is deleted (taking into account skill unlocking restrictions)
  • Skill books are not refunded.
  • This can happen in multiple sessions until you reach 10mil sp moved around (you can even move the re-skilled ones if you're so inclined)


I think this will not allow the older characters to re-skill to something overpowered (10 mil sp is not such a big deal).
It will be only once a char so can't be abused. (may result in some tickets but I guess it's negligible)
It will only be available once you reach 10 mil sp (and that would be the prime time to use it, I guess).
It won't be mandatory, so you can save it for later.
It won't cause such an impact on character trades, implant market, etc.

Remember before you bash that, while very complex and engaging and as close to real life as a game can be at the moment, EvE is still a game, which can't exist without its players. Also, as a game, it proposes a certain user experience - while some artificial friction can be added to some parts of it (like it happens with the combat UI at the moment), I don't think this change to the SP system will impact it negatively.

Moreover, an influx and retention of new players will improve even the game of the veteran ones.

Don't hate - meditate.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-06-30 18:07:03 UTC
if you lost 2m sp for doing this I would be ok with it
Horza Tareem
Paranoia Overload
Intrepid Heroes
#3 - 2015-06-30 18:18:20 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
if you lost 2m sp for doing this I would be ok with it



I guess that could be a cost - but why would you think that would be necessary? Do you think there would be a way to exploit this?
Amonios Zula
Aeon Ascendant
#4 - 2015-06-30 18:36:05 UTC
Horza Tareem wrote:

  • Allow for re-allocation of a maximum of 10mil sp, once per character,
  • Available right after you learned those 10mil sp (not before so you don't mess up).
  • I think allowing the re-allocation of 10mil sp to be somewhat excessive.
    2mil maybe, just maybe.

    trouble with 10mil is its potentially open to abuse, it would need some rather opressive limitations to reign it in.

    Horza Tareem wrote:
    I guess that could be a cost - but why would you think that would be necessary? Do you think there would be a way to exploit this?

    looking at his post i'd say it'd be to prevent max mapping to one line + implants, then suddenly reallocating to make focused characters in considerably shorter time than they should.
    Aerasia
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #5 - 2015-06-30 18:44:06 UTC
    Amonios Zula wrote:
    then suddenly reallocating to make focused characters in considerably shorter time than they should.
    Because the big hurdle when training up a focused alt is that remap they have to blow when switching from Int/Mem to Per/Wil.

    Oh CCP, save us from the alts with all their remaps intact!
    Horza Tareem
    Paranoia Overload
    Intrepid Heroes
    #6 - 2015-06-30 19:07:06 UTC
    Amonios Zula wrote:
    Horza Tareem wrote:

  • Allow for re-allocation of a maximum of 10mil sp, once per character,
  • Available right after you learned those 10mil sp (not before so you don't mess up).
  • I think allowing the re-allocation of 10mil sp to be somewhat excessive.
    2mil maybe, just maybe.

    trouble with 10mil is its potentially open to abuse, it would need some rather opressive limitations to reign it in.

    Horza Tareem wrote:
    I guess that could be a cost - but why would you think that would be necessary? Do you think there would be a way to exploit this?

    looking at his post i'd say it'd be to prevent max mapping to one line + implants, then suddenly reallocating to make focused characters in considerably shorter time than they should.



    I get where you're coming from, but 2 mil is a bit too low to actually experiment with a bit of success (read level 3 skills ) on different hull types/roles.

    Granted 10 mil might be too much, and it might be exploitable like you said but the "Exploit" could be taken into account - after all how much difference can it be, in time spent? Also newer chars might forget to queue skills - I know it happened to me. The exploit could be only done by alts that know their stuff. (both because of implant isk and knowledge).

    And for them, it wouldn't matter anyways because they already have tens of millions of sp alts (i'm thinking booster alts, e.g.)

    Also I was thinking about 10mil as a good figure because it takes you some time to get there but it seem that might be too far away also - 6 to 10 months it seems. So yea maybe a smaller figure will help with NPE and will offset potential exploits.
    Jordon Wallace
    Doomheim
    #7 - 2015-06-30 19:42:43 UTC
    Make it so this is only available to new players and when they pass there first 10M SP and I kind of support it.
    Horza Tareem
    Paranoia Overload
    Intrepid Heroes
    #8 - 2015-06-30 19:47:57 UTC
    Jordon Wallace wrote:
    Make it so this is only available to new players and when they pass there first 10M SP and I kind of support it.


    Yes, my thoughts exactly. Eve is by all means a game about consequences, but it shouldn't be so at the detriment of new player's engagement to the game.

    And as Amonios Zula said before - even 10m sp might be too much, given that it's about 6-10 months of training and the "wall" hits you way before that - like about the 2nd month or so when you get into training x4 skills there.

    Maybe have it able at 5 mil sp? If you spread them right (with proper tutorial guidance) you might be able to experiment with all types of ship hulls until there, I guess.
    Dominique Vasilkovsky
    #9 - 2015-06-30 21:55:40 UTC
    No, this idea isn't much better than any of the previous ones.
    Horza Tareem
    Paranoia Overload
    Intrepid Heroes
    #10 - 2015-07-01 06:00:11 UTC
    Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
    No, this idea isn't much better than any of the previous ones.


    Nah, I believe it's better.
    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #11 - 2015-07-01 08:16:28 UTC
    Skill Points remapping/buyingâ„¢: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

    Horza Tareem
    Paranoia Overload
    Intrepid Heroes
    #12 - 2015-07-01 08:35:29 UTC
    ahhh great man, i'll ask this topic locked and throw in my 2 cents in there. cheers!
    Sable Moran
    Moran Light Industries
    #13 - 2015-07-01 08:44:39 UTC
    You say you have read the previous arguments against skill point resets, well maybe. But it is rather obvious you haven't understood them.

    This gets a big fat no from me, again.

    PS. If a newbro wants to try out something before committing on it in TQ there's always Sisi and mass tests.

    Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

    ISD Decoy
    ISD Community Communications Liaisons
    #14 - 2015-07-01 10:31:04 UTC
    Quote:
    17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

    As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.

    The OP found the other megathread and has requested we shut this one down.

    ISD Decoy

    Captain

    Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

    Interstellar Services Department