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Remove loans from market discussion.

First post
Author
flakeys
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-06-30 12:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
This has been asked numerous times in the past and many MD regulars , myself included , have said we do not need nor want loans moved to the WTS forums because these types of threads need to be reviewed and discussed in public.

HOWEVER , seeing as the moderation of these types of threads has become moderated in the same way as is the norm on the WTS forum as of late i am hereby asking for the loan threads to be moved to the WTS forum.If there is no room for discussion regarding a loan and pointing out the flaws in them then there is absolutely no point besides ''filling '' this section of the forums for these threads to be here.

This post will verry likely get locked but i felt the need to speak my concerns about this type of moderation , especially as we have been able to do it in an open way for the past 7 or so years and now somehow starting this month it is something wich will not be tolerated.

So the question is , where do others feel the loanthreads should be seeing how moderation has changed faster then my wife changes her mind when she has her periods .....

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Snuffed Out
#2 - 2015-06-30 12:16:57 UTC
inb4 lock...yeah +1 Cool

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

flakeys
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-06-30 12:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Lan Wang wrote:
inb4 lock...yeah +1 Cool



Ow i know it will get locked , that is for sure.But as Elizabeth Norn pointed out in another thread one ISD says you need to go to the market discussion forum to discuss such loans and show your concerns while another ISD person removes one post after the other wich does just that.

So if it is treated like a WTS thread then move it to the WTS thread.



..... Come to think of it , they should be reported to be moved to the WTS thread the minute it get's treated as such.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Xtreem
Knockaround Guys Inc.
#4 - 2015-06-30 12:56:20 UTC
can't agree more: if you cant question the value/points/issues with the lone then it might as well just be "give me isk"
Or at least get an ISD type that understands when correct questioning is in play and not trolling so they don't remove things that actually matter.
Aileen Morex
Morex Group Inc.
Haven.
#5 - 2015-06-30 13:00:36 UTC
Investment, loan, bond threads don't happen that often that they require a new forum.

I do think that it would be worthwhile for them to be in the Wanted Ads & Trades since these people are wanting Isk. If they were offering Isk then maybe they would be in the Sales Orders forum.

We are discussing this forum, so there's no reason for the thread to be locked unless it devolves into something awful.
Xtreem
Knockaround Guys Inc.
#6 - 2015-06-30 13:02:22 UTC
I think we are indirectly discussing forum moderation, so will prob get locked just for the indirect bit as ISD hate us :-D
flakeys
Doomheim
#7 - 2015-06-30 13:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Xtreem wrote:
I think we are indirectly discussing forum moderation, so will prob get locked just for the indirect bit as ISD hate us :-D



Indeed , at least if i was an ISD it will fall under this category for me if i would read over it fast.


But we are discussing not the heavy moderation itself , but if these subthreads should be removed from this part of the forum because of the heavy moderation as of late.Without the discussion in the loanthreads there is no purpose to have them in MD and a move to the WTS forums would be much more in line as such.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

RAW23
#8 - 2015-06-30 15:38:30 UTC
Summer time moderator madness is with us again is it? This must be, what, the third? fourth? time a new mod has tried to implement that silly rule from WTS and then had it rapidly rolled back. Hopefully common sense will prevail but, if not, then yes the threads will definitely need to be moved.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.

HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-06-30 15:50:24 UTC
+1 for the OP
I have come to agree with this in a big way. Needs to be a sub forum or have them moved to for sale forum. Not only do they have absolutely nothing to do with marketing but they tend to mess the forum up.
gravytrader
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-06-30 15:54:39 UTC
+1 Agreed.

Stick them where the sun don't shine like the science and industry forum and see how people there like these annoying off-topic threads messing up their forum.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#11 - 2015-06-30 16:27:18 UTC
@ HeXxploiT and gravytrader, the point of MD is to discuss market things, I feel that loans are a part of that, especially as mostly traders take loans. Once you put them in another board (they won't make a new one just for the handful of loan threads started per week), such as Sell Orders or Want Ads & Trades then they can no longer be discussed due to their rules, both of those boards are bad enough without having loan threads not allowed to be subject to scrutiny.
flakeys
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-06-30 16:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
@ HeXxploiT and gravytrader, the point of MD is to discuss market things, I feel that loans are a part of that, especially as mostly traders take loans. Once you put them in another board (they won't make a new one just for the handful of loan threads started per week), such as Sell Orders or Want Ads & Trades then they can no longer be discussed due to their rules, both of those boards are bad enough without having loan threads not allowed to be subject to scrutiny.



Indeed the point is to discuss these requests.So if you can not freely discuss things , and i am not talking about removing things that are not affiliated to the request itself as per how we have been '' working'' here for years and years , then the question is should they not be moved to the WTS forum.

It's not a coincidence that both you and me made a statement towards the moderation of a loanthread within a days time while both in different loan threads.


As said in the OP i have allways wanted the loans to stick with MD as at least some of us in here tend to keep the discussion in the alive.With a change of moderation comes a change of mind however.


It would be nice if a moderator could give their view on why the moderation has taken such a shift recently but i am going to guess that is not going to happen.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#13 - 2015-06-30 17:01:00 UTC
Maybe the glue on the post-it note has dried up again and it's fallen down the back of the desk.

I don't see why we have to go over this once a year. Can't CCP handle passing on this information more effectively themselves? Why do we have to explain it to each new ISD?
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#14 - 2015-06-30 17:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Bobby
One thing I will point out is that, generally speaking, ISDs tend to act on threads that are reported. I have exploited this quite a lot in the past, by reporting posts I don't want to have in my threads. So the chances are the threads we are currently referring to were moderated at the request of the OP.

Which I suppose is the worst possible kind of moderation, given the circumstances.

I'm not sure if we can really expect ISDs to be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter to be able to apply a suitably soft hand to this.
okoolos rimmer
Napkin Nation
#15 - 2015-06-30 17:54:27 UTC
Yeah removing construictive criticism from loan threads is not cool.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#16 - 2015-06-30 17:57:39 UTC
okoolos rimmer wrote:
Yeah removing construictive criticism from loan threads is not cool.

I think even unconstructive criticism has a place in loan threads.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#17 - 2015-06-30 18:00:16 UTC
If the moderation continues, then I agree. When one can't question the "I want ISK, no collateral" loans, then what the hell. Big smile
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#18 - 2015-06-30 18:05:15 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Maybe the glue on the post-it note has dried up again and it's fallen down the back of the desk.

I don't see why we have to go over this once a year. Can't CCP handle passing on this information more effectively themselves? Why do we have to explain it to each new ISD?


It's not even new ISDs, one of them was involved in the Alice Saki thread where this happened.

Gorski Car told me he was reporting posts in his thread, and would continue to. If you can't expect ISDs to be able to be familiar with a forum after a year or three (let's ignore they moderated other threads in MD this week and left posts of a similar nature to the ones they deleted in Gorski's thread) then we need a set of rules stickied like the other forums have. The reporting criticism strategy has been used here before, but I don't think it was that successful, whether this is due to ISDs ignoring the reports or people not realizing it was possible I don't know.
flakeys
Doomheim
#19 - 2015-06-30 18:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Maybe the glue on the post-it note has dried up again and it's fallen down the back of the desk.

I don't see why we have to go over this once a year. Can't CCP handle passing on this information more effectively themselves? Why do we have to explain it to each new ISD?


It's not even new ISDs, one of them was involved in the Alice Saki thread where this happened.

Gorski Car told me he was reporting posts in his thread, and would continue to. If you can't expect ISDs to be able to be familiar with a forum after a year or three (let's ignore they moderated other threads in MD this week and left posts of a similar nature to the ones they deleted in Gorski's thread) then we need a set of rules stickied like the other forums have. The reporting criticism strategy has been used here before, but I don't think it was that successful, whether this is due to ISDs ignoring the reports or people not realizing it was possible I don't know.



As BB pointed out , if things get removed wich are showing the holes in a loanrequest purely because the OP of that request asked for it to be removed then we are crossing a line.

You then get self regulating OP's wich is as i have said before the same as the ''WTS titan'' threads in wich bad critique can and will be removed at request of the OP regardless if it actually is a scam.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#20 - 2015-07-01 04:25:00 UTC
I'll take a closer look at the policies surrounding these threads. Generally i try to stay hands off unless there is an abundance of reports, in which case i'll step in and make a judgement call based on what I can see. The policies could use a bit of a review anyway.

Also, don't abuse the report button to get us to take action on something. Not cool.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

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