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[AEGIS] Missile Hitpoints

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-06-21 23:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hello folks!
We're planning on making a set of changes to the hitpoints of subcapital missiles, which are currently all 70hp (except for Torpedoes at 280hp). The significant implication would be to “firewall” tactics where people use smartbombs to destroy incoming missiles in fleet warfare. Firewalling is an example of very clever use of game mechanics and can involve a ton of player skill. We really like the tactic in general but as players have improved their techniques over time it has gotten a bit too strong and tends to stifle the use of interesting missile fleet concepts. Ideally we’d want to provide more interesting play around firewalling without nerfing it out of existence.

These changes would consist of:
  • Moderate buffs to the HP of most missiles, with higher HP for larger missiles and higher HP for shorter range missiles within each size.
  • An extra HP increase for the Guristas (but not Dread Guristas) line of faction missiles (which have the lowest damage of the faction missiles and are therefore missing a useful role).
  • Each missile would gain 20% damage resistance to its own damage type, allowing for some advanced counterplay for large fleets that use and face firewall tactics.

The new hitpoint numbers would be:
  • Light Missiles: 60hp
  • Guristas Light Missiles: 80hp

  • Rockets: 90hp
  • Guristas Rockets: 120hp

  • Heavy Missiles: 120hp
  • Guristas Heavy Missiles: 160hp

  • Heavy Assault Missiles: 180hp
  • Guristas Heavy Assault Missiles: 240hp

  • Cruise Missiles: 240hp
  • Guristas Cruise Missiles: 320hp

  • Torpedoes: 360hp
  • Guristas Torpedoes: 480hp

  • This would mean that for instance two T2 small smartbombs or one medium T2 would be required to take down a Heavy Missile (with that threshold rising to two mediums or one large for Guristas faction Heavy missiles) and Cruise missiles would require two T2 mediums or one large smartbomb (rising to three mediums or one large faction smartbomb for Guristas versions). When facing smartbombs of the same damage type that threshold would rise even further.

    We hope that these changes will provide more interesting gameplay for pilots flying in fleets with or against missile ships.

    Let us know what you think!

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

    Kalen Pavle
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #2 - 2015-06-21 23:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalen Pavle
    Death to firewalls? Firewalls are overpowered? Missiles still suck? MANY QUESTIONS!

    Can we perhaps get some baseline missile speed added to torps so they actually hit things before it's time to change primary?

    How about missile speed doubles while flight time halves so the number of wasted salvos goes way down? Maybe make it so you don't know damage is incoming 10 seconds before you start taking the damage?
    Saeka Tyr
    Sanctuary of Shadows
    Dock Workers
    #3 - 2015-06-21 23:58:24 UTC
    not going to buff capital missiles the same way?

    ';(
    Manfred Sideous
    H A V O C
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #4 - 2015-06-21 23:58:32 UTC
    I like this direction!

    @EveManny

    https://twitter.com/EveManny

    Araneatrox
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #5 - 2015-06-21 23:58:36 UTC
    Disco firewalls incoming.
    CorryBasler
    Rapid Withdrawal
    Pen Is Out
    #6 - 2015-06-22 00:00:14 UTC
    page 1 post
    Grath Telkin
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #7 - 2015-06-22 00:02:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hello folks!
    We're planning on making a set of changes to the hitpoints of subcapital missiles, which are currently all 70hp (except for Torpedoes at 280hp). The significant implication would be to “firewall” tactics where people use smartbombs to destroy incoming missiles in fleet warfare. Firewalling is an example of very clever use of game mechanics and can involve a ton of player skill. We really like the tactic in general but as players have improved their techniques over time it has gotten a bit too strong and tends to stifle the use of interesting missile fleet concepts. Ideally we’d want to provide more interesting play around firewalling without nerfing it out of existence.

    These changes would consist of:
    • Moderate buffs to the HP of most missiles, with higher HP for larger missiles and higher HP for shorter range missiles within each size.
    • An extra HP increase for the Guristas (but not Dread Guristas) line of faction missiles (which have the lowest damage of the faction missiles and are therefore missing a useful role).
    • Each missile would gain 20% damage resistance to its own damage type, allowing for some advanced counterplay for large fleets that use and face firewall tactics.

    The new hitpoint numbers would be:
  • Light Missiles: 60hp
  • Guristas Light Missiles: 80hp

  • Rockets: 90hp
  • Guristas Rockets: 120hp

  • Heavy Missiles: 120hp
  • Guristas Heavy Missiles: 160hp

  • Heavy Assault Missiles: 180hp
  • Guristas Heavy Assault Missiles: 240hp

  • Cruise Missiles: 240hp
  • Guristas Cruise Missiles: 320hp

  • Torpedoes: 360hp
  • Guristas Torpedoes: 480hp

  • This would mean that for instance two T2 small smartbombs or one medium T2 would be required to take down a Heavy Missile (with that threshold rising to two mediums or one large for Guristas faction Heavy missiles) and Cruise missiles would require two T2 mediums or one large smartbomb (rising to three mediums or one large faction smartbomb for Guristas versions). When facing smartbombs of the same damage type that threshold would rise even further.

    We hope that these changes will provide more interesting gameplay for pilots flying in fleets with or against missile ships.

    Let us know what you think!


    You NEED to put capital missiles in with this.

    [19:04]TeensinJeans: Grath Citaldel missiles already have 2k hp right now
    [19:04] GrathTelkin: they need more

    Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

    Bianca Bardot
    Bianca Bardot Corporation
    #8 - 2015-06-22 00:03:13 UTC
    So instead of 1 Medium Smartbomb you need now ..... 1 Medium Smartbomb. Uuuuuh.
    Tarsas Phage
    Freight Club
    #9 - 2015-06-22 00:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
    Please clarify the case of missiles being launched from grouped launchers.

    If I had, for example, eight launchers grouped, will the singular "missile" that is spawned when they fire be HP*8, or is there a stacking penalty involved? Or is it just the same HP as 1 missile?
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #10 - 2015-06-22 00:09:46 UTC
    Tarsas Phage wrote:
    Please clarify the case of missiles being launched from grouped launchers.

    If I had, for example, eight launchers grouped, will the singular "missile" that is spawned when they fire be HP*8, or is there a stacking penalty involved? Or is it just the same HP as 1 missile?

    That mechanic isn't changing. The combined entity that flies through space has 8x the HP of one missile, but whenever it loses 1/8 of its HP it loses 1/8 of its damage. Missile grouping was implemented quite well back in the day.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

    Manfred Sideous
    H A V O C
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #11 - 2015-06-22 00:22:55 UTC
    Bianca Bardot wrote:
    So instead of 1 Medium Smartbomb you need now ..... 1 Medium Smartbomb. Uuuuuh.


    I agree the HP needs to be higher but at least this is a start.

    @EveManny

    https://twitter.com/EveManny

    BadAssMcKill
    Aliastra
    #12 - 2015-06-22 00:27:36 UTC
    Finally
    Hasan al-Askari Mujahideen
    War. Mongers
    #13 - 2015-06-22 00:35:25 UTC
    I did not think the firewall tactics was that big of a deal, I had hardly heard any really using them effectively to make a difference too
    Aliventi
    Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
    Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
    #14 - 2015-06-22 00:36:23 UTC
    How about you make the Gurristas faction missiles do the same damage as CN missile, and buff the HP of both?
    Tiberizzle
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #15 - 2015-06-22 00:38:38 UTC
    Grath Telkin wrote:


    You NEED to put capital missiles in with this.

    [19:04]TeensinJeans: Grath Citaldel missiles already have 2k hp right now
    [19:04] GrathTelkin: they need more


    unironically agree

    the phoenix has a small group size (3 missiles) so its missile group EHP is fairly low at 5.76k meaning around 20 large T2 smartbombs per second eliminate all the missiles

    taking this further, at energy pulse weapon 4 each 8-highslot battleship can stagger 1 smartbomb per second so a group of only 20 smartbombing battleships fed cap are a hard counter to a phoenix fleet of any size

    the required number of smartbombs per second is actually probably half this or lower, as the citadel missiles move slowly enough that they are usually in smartbomb range for 2 or more ticks

    factoring in how slow the missiles are it is also conceivable that a carrier group could achieve the smartbomb density necessary to screen itself from a large portion or all phoenix damage without even relying on an external firewall

    tl;dr phoenix fleets larger than a couple dozen dudes are not tactically viable until the citadel missile ehp is buffed
    stoicfaux
    #16 - 2015-06-22 00:42:14 UTC
    How does this affect NPC Defender missiles?


    Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

    unidenify
    Pandemic Horde Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #17 - 2015-06-22 00:50:07 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Tarsas Phage wrote:
    Please clarify the case of missiles being launched from grouped launchers.

    If I had, for example, eight launchers grouped, will the singular "missile" that is spawned when they fire be HP*8, or is there a stacking penalty involved? Or is it just the same HP as 1 missile?

    That mechanic isn't changing. The combined entity that flies through space has 8x the HP of one missile, but whenever it loses 1/8 of its HP it loses 1/8 of its damage. Missile grouping was implemented quite well back in the day.


    What about Golem and its 4 Launcher?

    is it possible for Golem to get role bonus to boost its missile hp to comparable to other missile BS's group of missile?
    Orca Platypus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #18 - 2015-06-22 00:56:46 UTC
    Fozzie, is there something you can do without buffing goons in process? Or is it your sole purpose in CCP?
    Querns
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #19 - 2015-06-22 01:05:11 UTC
    Orca Platypus wrote:
    Fozzie, is there something you can do without buffing goons in process? Or is it your sole purpose in CCP?

    Realtalk: they really can't. We're too clever for it to be possible.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #20 - 2015-06-22 01:17:20 UTC
    any chance when you do tiericide to missile ammo we can get special kinds that get bonus to resists or more HP but lower damage or something?

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

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