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Logistics Change - Looking for Feedback

Author
Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation
Care Factor
#1 - 2015-06-15 03:25:49 UTC
So, some alliance peeps and I were chatting about Logi and stuff, we had some fun ideas, so I wanted to post them to get some feedback and see what happens:

Logi Change Idea:

First - remove all sizes and variations of the Remote Shield Booster and Remote Armor Repair modules,
In their place add a Remote Shield Boost Amplifier and Remote Auxiliary Nano Pump module (one size).

Additionally, add small, medium and large sized versions of each of the following: Remote EM Ward Field, Remote Thermic Dissipation Field, Remote Kinetic Deflection Field, Remote Explosive Deflection Field, Remote Armor EM, Thermic, Kinetic and Explosive Hardeners.

At Tech II, the Large size Remote Hardener or Field Module would add 65% to its target's resist with the expected Stacking penalty applied, and each size smaller is 25% less effective (32.5% for small and 50% for medium)

Looking at EFT, a Scorpion (with no base EM resist) could get somewhere in the 93% range EM resists with 5 remote effects, and could reasonably field a 13k local tank with 2 XL Boosters ( i used Pith X-Type to simulate the remote boost amplifier effects). An Apocalypse (with 50% base EM resists) could get close to 97% EM resists with 5 remote effects and close to 16k tank with 2 Large armor reppers (again I used Corpus X-Type to simulate a remote Auxiliary Nano Pump effect.) In addition, both of these ships sport 250k EHP (against pure EM). Both of these examples include a max shield/armor booster in a command ship.

Again, looking at EFT, a Wyvern gets close to 94% EM resists with 5 remote effects and can sport a whopping 42.2k local tank w/ 2 Meta capital Boosters, and the Aeon can get nearly 97% EM resist with 5 remote effects and supports 50k local tank. Notably, the Wyvern carries around 22M EHP against pure EM damage, and that Aeon a very robust 42M EHP.

So, these numbers are clearly the extreme, and only carry against an opposing force that is shooting solely one damage type. On the other hand, a standard (?) Fleet Aeon receiving 10 remote repair effects from his fleet mates easily reaches 43k tank (and carries its own resist profile averaging 90% across the board)

So, people will argue (for the sake of arguing?) that the current system works fine, keep it the way it is. Others will say that Logi is totally broken and is pushing the fleet doctrines to be massive balls of the Highest DPS and most Logi you can field, and it's all a numbers game before the reds and blues even meet each other.

I would say its probably somewhere in between. The number of logi ships you have in fleet shouldn't dictate whether you'll win before the other guy even decides to fight. Logi should be a powerful force multiplier, but it should also allow confrontations to happen in such a way that either side could win based on who is flying the best tactics (not the most Logi.)

Perhaps this version will allow fleets to engage with a reasonable feeling of "we could win if we do it right" rather than "they have too much logi, lets dock up..."

This also makes logi choices harder (do i fit all EM, or one of each???), line member choices harder (do i fit local Hardeners, or rely on the Logi squad?), and FC choices harder (they're bringing Typhoons...what damage type do we tank!?!?!).

Anyhoo, that's my idea, feel free to do whatever you do when you read something on the forum!

Cedric

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2 - 2015-06-15 03:55:36 UTC
Look at the difference in EHP your fits would have vs the current fleet fits. On a pre remote effects level. Now consider what that means to Alpha kills.
Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation
Care Factor
#3 - 2015-06-15 04:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Cedric
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Look at the difference in EHP your fits would have vs the current fleet fits. On a pre remote effects level. Now consider what that means to Alpha kills.



Alpha will still be able to kill... thats the point. The current Big fleet meta is, once we've alpha'd enough of their dudes, we now have enough remote repairs for them to not alpha us. If i bring enough Guardians to balance their potential Alpha DPS, then I win, as long as they don't do the same.

This change allows Alpha to continually work, which means the Suicide Fleet is still viable to do damage against the bigger guy. I don't have to worry that their reps will forever win, instead if I'm skillful enough I can continue target switching and get the next guy. Remember, the resists aren't there until the Logi locks and turns modules on. In the meantime, that EHP is not there.

Not only this, but the stacking penalty means having 60 logi pilots all piling on one ship is a TOTAL waste of modules.

It also means Neuts are even more viable, because this change truly makes capacitor the key to it all working.. so then does my Logi pack more remote hardeners, or Capacitor Transfers?

Cedric

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#4 - 2015-06-15 06:03:19 UTC
You firstly utterly missed my point. By forcing local reps, you have now dropped EHP levels, especially pre remote boosts.
Meaning it is now massively easier to alpha ships. This is NOT a desirable thing, being alpha'ed is not fun, it is not engaging game play. All it is is 'blink, and dead'.
Therefore anything which promotes even more alpha doctrines than currently exist is bad for the overall meta.

Additionally adding a stacking penalty onto logi when there is no stacking penalty for DPS is also bad, as it further promotes the blob approach.

And for the last flaw, can we say 'ASB'
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#5 - 2015-06-15 08:32:04 UTC
There is that and then theres the whole Omega fleet stuff... Fun as though the concept of OMEGA FLEET was... (a brick of artillery fit swaglfars was the preposed counter to Archon blobs alpha through those crazy reps and buffer)

In this "meta" you have 2 viable defences, bigger and harder alpha or damps on everything... Ie bring more damping boats to keep the conventional fleet alive or bring more 1400 maels or 425mm rohks...

"blap me harder brah"
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#6 - 2015-06-15 09:28:08 UTC
1) why does logi need fixing?
2) this doesn't fix it anyway.

As someone with 2 logi 5 accounts, i love to logi. I have a dog in this fight so to speak.

But i really don't see the problem with logi. If i come across a fleet with logi, and i don't have the dps or alpha to break them, we run away. Pretty simple. It is like taking on a marauder or a cap. Either have the dps to break them or GTFO. They have paired triage carriers... Have nuets+DPS or get out.

It really is that simple. The counter to logi is Have logi. Yes no matter what fleets with superior numbers, all else being equal are superior, it doesn't really make sense to have it any other way. Of course in practice all else is never equal..... ;)

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2015-06-15 10:00:33 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
1) why does logi need fixing?
2) this doesn't fix it anyway.

As someone with 2 logi 5 accounts, i love to logi. I have a dog in this fight so to speak.

But i really don't see the problem with logi. If i come across a fleet with logi, and i don't have the dps or alpha to break them, we run away. Pretty simple. It is like taking on a marauder or a cap. Either have the dps to break them or GTFO. They have paired triage carriers... Have nuets+DPS or get out.

It really is that simple. The counter to logi is Have logi. Yes no matter what fleets with superior numbers, all else being equal are superior, it doesn't really make sense to have it any other way. Of course in practice all else is never equal..... ;)


The problem with logi is past a point you cant kill anything which means you dont undock which means no fights.

A super/carrier fleet cannot be killed by any number of subcaps with todays system.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#8 - 2015-06-15 10:39:30 UTC
Why would we expect subcaps to take out supers and carriers? Anymore than we expect frigates to take out marauders?

In enough numbers with the correct composition of course they *can* and do. But its sort of the point that its not easy.

And with correct tactics you can reduce and neutralize logi (nuets, damps, jams etc). I don't see a problem. Why do we expect to kill members of a superior fleet?

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#9 - 2015-06-15 10:41:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
1) why does logi need fixing?
2) this doesn't fix it anyway.

As someone with 2 logi 5 accounts, i love to logi. I have a dog in this fight so to speak.

But i really don't see the problem with logi. If i come across a fleet with logi, and i don't have the dps or alpha to break them, we run away. Pretty simple. It is like taking on a marauder or a cap. Either have the dps to break them or GTFO. They have paired triage carriers... Have nuets+DPS or get out.

It really is that simple. The counter to logi is Have logi. Yes no matter what fleets with superior numbers, all else being equal are superior, it doesn't really make sense to have it any other way. Of course in practice all else is never equal..... ;)


The problem with logi is past a point you cant kill anything which means you dont undock which means no fights.

A super/carrier fleet cannot be killed by any number of subcaps with todays system.


If you took the Supercarriers out of the equation, would that still be a true statement?

More to the point, if you took Supercarriers out of the picture and brought Dreadnoughts with subcapital support, would that still be a true statement?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2015-06-15 12:44:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
1) why does logi need fixing?
2) this doesn't fix it anyway.

As someone with 2 logi 5 accounts, i love to logi. I have a dog in this fight so to speak.

But i really don't see the problem with logi. If i come across a fleet with logi, and i don't have the dps or alpha to break them, we run away. Pretty simple. It is like taking on a marauder or a cap. Either have the dps to break them or GTFO. They have paired triage carriers... Have nuets+DPS or get out.

It really is that simple. The counter to logi is Have logi. Yes no matter what fleets with superior numbers, all else being equal are superior, it doesn't really make sense to have it any other way. Of course in practice all else is never equal..... ;)


The problem with logi is past a point you cant kill anything which means you dont undock which means no fights.

A super/carrier fleet cannot be killed by any number of subcaps with todays system.


Could't that be a problem of super/carriers and not logi? It's only when the EHP of a ship goes into the millions that it really approache the "impossible" line no?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#11 - 2015-06-15 13:24:26 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
1) why does logi need fixing?
2) this doesn't fix it anyway.

As someone with 2 logi 5 accounts, i love to logi. I have a dog in this fight so to speak.

But i really don't see the problem with logi. If i come across a fleet with logi, and i don't have the dps or alpha to break them, we run away. Pretty simple. It is like taking on a marauder or a cap. Either have the dps to break them or GTFO. They have paired triage carriers... Have nuets+DPS or get out.

It really is that simple. The counter to logi is Have logi. Yes no matter what fleets with superior numbers, all else being equal are superior, it doesn't really make sense to have it any other way. Of course in practice all else is never equal..... ;)


The problem with logi is past a point you cant kill anything which means you dont undock which means no fights.

A super/carrier fleet cannot be killed by any number of subcaps with todays system.


Could't that be a problem of super/carriers and not logi? It's only when the EHP of a ship goes into the millions that it really approache the "impossible" line no?


Even in the low single digit millions, it is still viable to kill a ship, but takes artillery rolling about 75 deep per million, which is a large but feasible number. Once you get into the double digit millions, good fricken luck.,

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2015-06-15 13:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
FT Diomedes wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
1) why does logi need fixing?
2) this doesn't fix it anyway.

As someone with 2 logi 5 accounts, i love to logi. I have a dog in this fight so to speak.

But i really don't see the problem with logi. If i come across a fleet with logi, and i don't have the dps or alpha to break them, we run away. Pretty simple. It is like taking on a marauder or a cap. Either have the dps to break them or GTFO. They have paired triage carriers... Have nuets+DPS or get out.

It really is that simple. The counter to logi is Have logi. Yes no matter what fleets with superior numbers, all else being equal are superior, it doesn't really make sense to have it any other way. Of course in practice all else is never equal..... ;)


The problem with logi is past a point you cant kill anything which means you dont undock which means no fights.

A super/carrier fleet cannot be killed by any number of subcaps with todays system.


If you took the Supercarriers out of the equation, would that still be a true statement?

More to the point, if you took Supercarriers out of the picture and brought Dreadnoughts with subcapital support, would that still be a true statement?


Even a fleet of carriers is difficult to kill on its own, and they don't have the silly ewar immunity. Numbers vary of based on ships and skill points and scenario ofc, but it's been my experience that If you field 15 reasonably skilled slow cats, you're more or less invulnerable until someone drops supers or 20 dreads or 100 t3's on you. Yeah you can still be tackled but not reliably killed. Carrier reps are obscenely powerful in groups. Likewise, in subcategory warfare, a fleet composed of half logi and half dps is going to be exceedingly difficult to push off field *by any fleet even close in size without its own ton of logi*(editing in). To date, the best 'hard counters' to logi that I've seen are a sensor damp/neutral combo, swarms, I mean every ship in the fleet fielding them, of ecm drones, or more logi. I really don't think there is a good fix available while line of sight is not a thing in eve. That is the only real way to buffer incoming dps/blob mentality so that logi can be capped. Perhaps reduce capital reps repair value out of triage so they have to be unable to receive support while doing those huge reps like dreads? I know they are already slower but enough of them and they make up for it.

*subcapital not subcategory. Silly autocorrect*

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#13 - 2015-06-15 14:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Delt0r Garsk
So read up on a few of the logi is OP threads.

The logic seems to something like this. My fleet can't hurt that fleet. So its OP. Well yea 50 pilot fleets are not going to win against a 100 pilot fleet. Yes some even said exactly the 50 man vers 100 man thing is unfair with logi. Logi makes no difference. Being out gunned is part of life. Changing logi so no one will use it will not change that fact. Even worse someone made the complaint that 200 rifters can't break a good fleet comp with logi.

Even worse is the crying about 200 carrier fleet. Well duh, if they can field 200 carriers, why would you expect to be able to kill things and even win with what? a bunch of curisers? or even battleships? They are caps, what the hell do you want. To solo them in a rifter?

If you permit big fleets. This is the game you get. Changing logi only changes the ships flown, and in fact reduces choice. Since if there is no logi then the only thing to go for is pure DPS. Nothing else will matter. After all Damage does not get stacking penalized. If you want no fleet to be "invulnerable" to any other fleet, then well that is just stupid. Of course a large fleet of battleships is going to be invulnerable to a small gang of frigates.

Evey other MMO fixes this problem just one way. Corps/alliance and fleets have very very low member size limits. Stop the big brawl, don't have to waste time with perceived unfairness of not winning ridiculously outnumbered.

If you are outnumbered, your outnumbered. Your going to lose big time. It is right there in the number of guns theory.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Tykonderoga
Black Omega Security
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#14 - 2015-06-15 14:44:30 UTC
Please stop thinking. Thanks.
Tykonderoga
Black Omega Security
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#15 - 2015-06-15 14:45:24 UTC
Please stop thinking. Thanks.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#16 - 2015-06-15 14:53:46 UTC
Wow, thank you for that inspiring post. So what do you say to a fleet of 30 t3's and 10 guardians taking on an 80 man Bs and 8 auguror fleet and being able to win. The bs have way more guns. This isn't some hypothetical scenario wildly off the deep end scenario. This happens, or used to quite often in low sec pvp. It's not something that isn't a problem, there just isn't really a good answer right now.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#17 - 2015-06-15 15:04:06 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Wow, thank you for that inspiring post. So what do you say to a fleet of 30 t3's and 10 guardians taking on an 80 man Bs and 8 auguror fleet and being able to win. The bs have way more guns. This isn't some hypothetical scenario wildly off the deep end scenario. This happens, or used to quite often in low sec pvp. It's not something that isn't a problem, there just isn't really a good answer right now.

I simply don't see a problem here. Number of guns is all things being equal (game theory basically for the armed forces. roughly speaking it means doubling the number of guns is far more effective that twice as good). t3 are a special case at any rate and clear way to organize if you have ISK but not pilots. You have to trade DPS and tank of the fleet. There will be things you can't break and things you can. Fleets that over logi can't hurt anyone either since they lack the DPS.

I mean nurf logi and how does some t3 meta never outgun some BS meta? And in the above example add a few bhals and swap out a few BS for a little more logi..... t3 are very susceptible to nuets as are logi.

I don't see how "I can't kill that thing in this situation" as a good argument to nurf it.

Also having flown in big fleets, i don't buy the nuet/ewar doesn't work in this case. I have seen it work. Just don't get a fleet full of F1 monkeys and all of a sudden fleet composition is a thing.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#18 - 2015-06-15 15:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Signature Resolution for RR and Remote Shield Transfer
Skills would change from -5% cap needs to 5% variance to signature resolution
esample
Medium RR would have a sig resolution of 125m at level V it would affect ships between 93.75m to 156.25m

Edit: Also logistic cruisers would be balanced around medium RR not large RR

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#19 - 2015-06-15 15:35:50 UTC
Yeah I can't even with you. First 'oh just bring more and bigger guns' then 'I see no problem with fewer smaller guns winning. They just had a better fleet comp.' There is an old saying about not arguing with an idiot. First they bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience. I have very little experience arguing at that level.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2015-06-15 15:52:02 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Yeah I can't even with you. First 'oh just bring more and bigger guns' then 'I see no problem with fewer smaller guns winning. They just had a better fleet comp.' There is an old saying about not arguing with an idiot. First they bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience. I have very little experience arguing at that level.


Problem in your example is the battleship indeed did bring more and bigger guns but forgot they should have the same support for this rule to apply. 8 T1 logi cruiser vs 10 T2 ones is not a fair match...
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