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Changes to data gathering

First post
Author
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-06-11 10:12:58 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Goliath
In our continuous efforts to improve the quality of the EVE client we are starting to gather more data from the EVE clients when connecting to our test servers, such as Singularity. The next time you log in to Sisi you will see a dialog informing you of this data gathering and asking for your consent. You will have to accept if you want to play on the test servers – if you do not agree, the client will terminate.

What data?
We have been gathering performance statistics for a long time, but statistics can only take you so far. From now on we are gathering all warnings and errors that are logged from both the game engine and the higher level game code. Generally we've only seen these logs when running inhouse, with the LogServer attached, or in bug reports filed from you, the players. We're hoping to get a much clearer picture of the state of the client by getting logs from everyone.

Generally we don't log out any sensitive information, certainly no passwords or anything like that, but when logging warnings or errors we sometimes log out the full pathname of files being accessed – if those are stored in your Users folder the user name may be seen in that path. There may be other cases where something that might be considered personally identifiable data will go into those logs.

You can see what sort of data we will get by running the LogServer – anything marked as a Warning or an Error (yellow and red lines) will now be sent to us.

Opting out?
There is no opting out – if you don't want us to get this data then don't log in to a test server. Nothing will change on Tranquility, this data gathering only applies to test servers.

We hope you all agree that this is a good thing – we get more information about the state of the client, with less effort from you. We will get those warnings and errors even if you weren't running LogServer, and have a better chance of fixing those hard-to-reproduce bugs that we only see in mass tests.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2015-06-11 10:29:16 UTC
Good stuff. Testing is kinda the point of Sisi.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-06-11 13:33:01 UTC
I agree. Good thing.

Maybe you should indicate more clearly that this is not a replacement for bugreports. So if I discover that something is wrong, it doesn't mean it is automatically recognised as a bug from the logs. Like wrong text, colour, alignment of something, mechanics not working as intended, etc. Otherwise people may tink that they "reported" a bug just by discovering it.
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#4 - 2015-06-11 13:35:08 UTC
Mister Ripley wrote:
I agree. Good thing.

Maybe you should indicate more clearly that this is not a replacement for bugreports. So if I discover that something is wrong, it doesn't mean it is automatically recognised as a bug from the logs. Like wrong text, colour, alignment of something, mechanics not working as intended, etc. Otherwise people may tink that they "reported" a bug just by discovering it.

Good point - keep filing those bug reports, everyone!

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2015-06-11 13:44:51 UTC
I'm more surprised that this wasn't already in effect on sisi.

You also seem to be very worried about offending the privacy minded of us.. In this case however you really don't need to be. Its nice to see but we in no way pay for singularity so we functionally get no say in its operation. Also.. expecting a testing platform to NOT log every nut and bolt is just insane. Bug hunting is already a needle in a haystack job.. use every tool you guys can get your mitts on!
Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-06-11 13:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Ripley
Another thing:

Maybe you should eventually update the status feature in bug reports as promised ?a year? ago. I have bugs closed that are still there and others that are attached (which for me means they are not fixed yet) but fixed... Others are open for almost half a year now, which for me means you don't give a damn...
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-06-11 14:54:40 UTC
In before AT competitors will not be able to train due to not accepting privacy stuff they dont want to share :)
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#8 - 2015-06-11 14:55:35 UTC
Lets hope the logs will show something :)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2015-06-11 17:55:07 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
In before AT competitors will not be able to train due to not accepting privacy stuff they dont want to share :)



What like? your name? which ccp all ready have? what about your address? nope they should all ready have that if you have ever paid for your accounts vr CC or Paypal or anything realy... there is nothing any one should need to keep secret tbh.
Maxiuss 3
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-06-12 03:44:03 UTC
wWhen it say's 3 RD party's, that gives me GREAT CONCERN. IE data breaks are ramped, so when your giving this data about users its a back door to my DATA iE sever address ect accounts. I trust EVE but not undisclosed #r3d Party's.
Please explain those third party's exactly, to whom are you selling my info to?
Maxiuss 3
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-06-12 04:03:30 UTC
Ive lost billions in org BPS, I really don't want to hear any thing about log server logs, for instance I have absolute screen shots of me in diff space with alts and died at different gate per gate camp. lost billions on that along with org blue prints that cant be found in cans that disappeared idk.
kind of why I don't play much any more. please check my accounts ccp, by the way your recent changes have left some vets non subscribers.
seems like dust is your new way of thinking, INDIA is all over the news, the home of intel, it wont be long till they take over games like yours, steam will die to. its the people you have now and lost ccp, long time players love the game they hate the ******* you have been dishing out so they quit.I hope that's not your intent because your tract says so. And at the end you will get nothing but new players that TRY THIS LIFE for 20 hours and then quit, I am one of those 1800 coder's check news.

When running on test servers, the EVE Online client gathers data that is used to help us improve the quality and performance of the client.

This data may include personally identifiable information and be transmitted to, processed and/or stored on 3rd party servers as well as on CCP's network.

Do you agree to send us your data? If you do not agree, the client will terminate.m sure your records can repeat this fact if not please contact me ill give yea the truth, ie server pay
CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#12 - 2015-06-12 10:20:21 UTC
Maxiuss 3 wrote:
wWhen it say's 3 RD party's, that gives me GREAT CONCERN. IE data breaks are ramped, so when your giving this data about users its a back door to my DATA iE sever address ect accounts. I trust EVE but not undisclosed #r3d Party's.
Please explain those third party's exactly, to whom are you selling my info to?

We're not selling any info, we are using an external service to gather the logs and using their tools for analysis.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-06-12 11:25:29 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
In before AT competitors will not be able to train due to not accepting privacy stuff they dont want to share :)



What like? your name? which ccp all ready have? what about your address? nope they should all ready have that if you have ever paid for your accounts vr CC or Paypal or anything realy... there is nothing any one should need to keep secret tbh.


I know, but security freaks are out there :)
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2015-06-12 20:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonlit Raid
Is there a complete list of all parameters that could possibly be logged anywhere? Before I accept a sweeping statement of allowing "some personal data" I like to know what is included.

File paths, hardware configuration, cpu load, framerate, driver versions, that kinda thing, perfectly ok with.

Other running processes, indiscriminate capturing of RAM segments, very very not ok with.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.

Wadiest Yong
Porcus Volans
#15 - 2015-06-12 20:31:47 UTC
The almost casual way in which you announce that potentially sensitive and identifiable data will be sent to undisclosed third parties gives a lot to think about. Well, not really.

Outsourcing services to externals is okay if we are able to hold them and you accountable, but not in the way you're implementing this. At least microsoft gives us the option to NOT upload a bug report with local data, and they don't keep an open and uncontrollable line when using their product for "collecting data" purposes.
The question is, who needs the test server and the data the most and at what cost for us customers.
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-06-13 20:17:46 UTC
Wadiest Yong wrote:
The almost casual way in which you announce that potentially sensitive and identifiable data will be sent to undisclosed third parties gives a lot to think about. Well, not really.

Outsourcing services to externals is okay if we are able to hold them and you accountable, but not in the way you're implementing this. At least microsoft gives us the option to NOT upload a bug report with local data, and they don't keep an open and uncontrollable line when using their product for "collecting data" purposes.
The question is, who needs the test server and the data the most and at what cost for us customers.


No one is forcing you to login to the test server and submit yourself to the logging process.

If you don't like or agree with it, don't log into the test server.

That is all.

Yaay!!!!

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#17 - 2015-06-14 12:23:34 UTC
CCP Snorlax wrote:
Maxiuss 3 wrote:
wWhen it say's 3 RD party's, that gives me GREAT CONCERN. IE data breaks are ramped, so when your giving this data about users its a back door to my DATA iE sever address ect accounts. I trust EVE but not undisclosed #r3d Party's.
Please explain those third party's exactly, to whom are you selling my info to?

We're not selling any info, we are using an external service to gather the logs and using their tools for analysis.

But according to the little blurb at the top of the thread, There may be other cases where something that might be considered personally identifiable data will go into those logs.

If you allow Eve to install in its default locations, it installs folders to your Users folder. If the scans include that folder and as you state, something personally identifiable may be included, what exactly is it that "might" be included?

Your not 'selling" our information, your paying someone to collect it.

Will CCP be responsible for any misuse of information collected by the 3rd party or is the strict need for the waiver CCP's legal "out" in case of wrong doing?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-06-15 19:25:25 UTC
This is ONLY for the Test Server.

Not happy? DON'T use it.

That simple.

Been around since the beginning.

Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2015-06-15 19:40:27 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
This is ONLY for the Test Server.

Not happy? DON'T use it.

That simple.

Thanks for suggesting the course of action I have been undertaking for approximately 96 hours now. Your contribution would have been much more valuable at the time of receiving the prompt. Even still; zero multiplied by anything is still zero.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.

CCP Snorlax
C C P
C C P Alliance
#20 - 2015-06-15 20:04:08 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP Snorlax wrote:
Maxiuss 3 wrote:
wWhen it say's 3 RD party's, that gives me GREAT CONCERN. IE data breaks are ramped, so when your giving this data about users its a back door to my DATA iE sever address ect accounts. I trust EVE but not undisclosed #r3d Party's.
Please explain those third party's exactly, to whom are you selling my info to?

We're not selling any info, we are using an external service to gather the logs and using their tools for analysis.

But according to the little blurb at the top of the thread, There may be other cases where something that might be considered personally identifiable data will go into those logs.

If you allow Eve to install in its default locations, it installs folders to your Users folder. If the scans include that folder and as you state, something personally identifiable may be included, what exactly is it that "might" be included?

Your not 'selling" our information, your paying someone to collect it.

Will CCP be responsible for any misuse of information collected by the 3rd party or is the strict need for the waiver CCP's legal "out" in case of wrong doing?


We're simply forwarding any warnings and errors in logs so that we can see them without you having to run LogServer and send us your logs. What exactly gets logged evolves over time - when tracking down bugs we often add logging to help us narrow the issues down. I hope that will be more effective now as we see logs from more players.

You can run with LogServer attached to see what is sent to us - the warnings and errors show up as yellow and red.

It is hard for us to guarantee that nothing will ever show up in logs that can be viewed as personally identifiable information, hence the disclosure.

Keep in mind that this only applies to our test servers and the intent is to help us improve the quality of the EVE client. If you feel this is too much of a risk, we're sorry not be able to accommodate you on our test servers.

CCP Snorlax - Software Architect - Team RnB - @CCP_Snorlax - http://ccpsnorlax.blogspot.is/

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