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Max Subcap PVP?

Author
Khanid Voltar
#1 - 2015-05-24 18:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanid Voltar
I have been working towards this elusive goal for a long time now, and am coming to the end of a Per/Will remap finishing off my specializations before switching to a drone map before finally leadership. After such a long train 2 years seems tantalisingly close!

I know to some, most in fact that max is specs to 4 etc but I wanted to have a long term goal in mind and this was it and has remained even though I dont play as much now.

Anyway, I was thinking today, should max pvp include all ships capable of fitting a launcher or gun on them?

EG the T1 & T2 industrials & mining frigates - NOT mining barges and exhumers though which can only use drones offensively.

I know that "max subcap pvp" is purely something I have constructed in my head as something worth striving for, but I though maybe if such a nebulous goal was shared others might have had this same conundrum and I wondered what they thought.

TL:DR Does "max subcap pvp" include anything that can fit a gun?

http://eveboard.com/pilot/khanid_voltar
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#2 - 2015-05-24 20:05:39 UTC
Khanid Voltar wrote:
I have been working towards this elusive goal for a long time now, and am coming to the end of a Per/Will remap finishing off my specializations before switching to a drone map before finally leadership. After such a long train 2 years seems tantalisingly close!

I know to some, most in fact that max is specs to 4 etc but I wanted to have a long term goal in mind and this was it and has remained even though I dont play as much now.

Anyway, I was thinking today, should max pvp include all ships capable of fitting a launcher or gun on them?

EG the T1 & T2 industrials & mining frigates - NOT mining barges and exhumers though which can only use drones offensively.

I know that "max subcap pvp" is purely something I have constructed in my head as something worth striving for, but I though maybe if such a nebulous goal was shared others might have had this same conundrum and I wondered what they thought.

TL:DR Does "max subcap pvp" include anything that can fit a gun?

http://eveboard.com/pilot/khanid_voltar


I just did the same thing with this guy.
http://eveboard.com/pilot/RaVeN_Revenge

Over 2 years on ships, guns, drones, missiles, with several *off remap* skills along the way.
I do think that "max subcap" includes the strat cruisers to V. But you can see I didn't finish off 3 skills in the ship category, and they are all industrial. My thinking was:
1. I was about tired of that remap.
2. For the time investment, there were skills I'd rather have at V.
3. Industrial ships at V really doesn't improve their survivability or their DPS application.

The only real consideration for me was, to finish off the ship category or not.
I decided there were over 20 skills I'd rather finish off first, and I know I'll still get back to those industrial skills at some point.
So I remapped.
I still like my decision too.

Nice character btw. Smile
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2015-05-25 05:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
All that time for 2% here and 2% there....

So if the idea is not to just boast, things that stand out for me:
* Khanid need drone skill polishing, and Capital Hybrid (I know, sub-cap goal, but it just stuck out).
* Raven lacks drug skills, and needs some targeting skills improvements (or lose the right ever complain about ECM).

The biggest problem I see in Khanid is that he strayed into capitals, which can be a real SP drain for little return, especially when you want to be a sub-cap specialist. Raven seems to have avoided that, and may be why he seems more well-rounded at a glance, with less SP.

Both surprisingly trained Afterburner 5, which notably causes AB to burn-out a bit sooner, as well as switch-over issue when operating dual-prop ships.

Max sub-cap PvP means whatever you want it to. The Nereus is known for PvP, but that is far from common.

Personally, I have an alt that is a medium-hull specialist, as that comprises the vast majority of all ships in EVE. Same character is also starting to stray into small ships, which really doesn't leave much else for modern warfare (battleships are not currently a very popular meta, mostly because of bombers).
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2015-05-25 06:54:23 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Both surprisingly trained Afterburner 5, which notably causes AB to burn-out a bit sooner, as well as switch-over issue when operating dual-prop ships.


Erm. What switch-over issue? Sure, it used to be bad for dual prop setups but that was fixed three years ago.
Khanid Voltar
#5 - 2015-05-25 07:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanid Voltar
RavenPaine wrote:

I decided there were over 20 skills I'd rather finish off first, and I know I'll still get back to those industrial skills at some point.


That's pretty much where I was, I was just going to do the small & medium specs to 5, but having come to the end of it I find myself thinking I might as well do the Large specs to 5 and the strat cruisers to 5 now rather than have it hanging over me as something still needing to be done. When I next come to a Per/Will remap (E/O 2017/2018) it will be for capitals (after this subcap goal is complete).

Hence my thinking, maybe I should do the Indies etc now. They are only rank 2-4 skills so not that long. But put together they are all another 2-3 months when I'd rather be getting on with my drone remap. Hence the indecision and reason for my post.

And thanks, you too Smile

Tau Cabalander wrote:
All that time for 2% here and 2% there....

So if the idea is not to just boast, things that stand out for me:
* Khanid need drone skill polishing, and Capital Hybrid (I know, sub-cap goal, but it just stuck out).
* Raven lacks drug skills, and needs some targeting skills improvements (or lose the right ever complain about ECM).

The biggest problem I see in Khanid is that he strayed into capitals, which can be a real SP drain for little return, especially when you want to be a sub-cap specialist. Raven seems to have avoided that, and may be why he seems more well-rounded at a glance, with less SP.


If my post was meant for boasting I would have waited till drones were better. I didn't even put my eveboard link on there at first until I thought it might elucidate meaning for readers of my post.

Also Capitals will be done eventually but they are more of an as needed skill at the moment. I joined an alliance last summer for a few months last summer for which I needed a carrier ASAP so that's why capital skills were started but not finished (or even adequate). If I need a capital again they will be uprated in urgency, if not, then they won't.

I used to have 6 accounts with a different toon for everything, now it is just this one account so when I was told I needed to have a carrier it was a choice of conforming or leaving the alliance.

Tau Cabalander wrote:
Both surprisingly trained Afterburner 5, which notably causes AB to burn-out a bit sooner, as well as switch-over issue when operating dual-prop ships.


A trained eye will note there are several other skills maxed out in my skillplan that most would deem superfluous - Rigging 5, TSM 5, & Advanced Target Management to 5 to name ones I can think of off the top of my head. That's just a mixture of OCD'ness on my part but also in the hope of making this toon FOTM proof - so as to beat the CCP nerf curve. Eg if eventually CCP sorts them out I am already prepped. Unlikely I know, but as Zhilia points out, Afterburner 5 was fixed.

Tau Cabalander wrote:

Max sub-cap PvP means whatever you want it to.


I know, I stated that in the OP. I just wondered what other people thought that were approaching similar goals.

Tau Cabalander wrote:

The Nereus is known for PvP, but that is far from common.

Personally, I have an alt that is a medium-hull specialist, as that comprises the vast majority of all ships in EVE. Same character is also starting to stray into small ships, which really doesn't leave much else for modern warfare (battleships are not currently a very popular meta, mostly because of bombers).


Thank you, I think you begin to see my dilemma in your final paragraph. For instance this toon was never meant to max out large weapon specs he was just going to maxed up to BC's. Then CCP brought out ABC's and so I was forced to change my goals.

The indies never used to be able to be fit and tanked properly. Now I find myself wondering if they could make awesome bait ships, especially the transport ships with their repping bonii.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2015-05-25 15:19:29 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Both surprisingly trained Afterburner 5, which notably causes AB to burn-out a bit sooner, as well as switch-over issue when operating dual-prop ships.


Erm. What switch-over issue? Sure, it used to be bad for dual prop setups but that was fixed three years ago.

Which was probably the last time I flew a dual-prop ship. Oops

Nice catch. Thanks.

The overheating issue still applies, because of the shorter cycle.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2015-05-25 15:31:15 UTC
Khanid Voltar wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
The Nereus is known for PvP, but that is far from common.

Personally, I have an alt that is a medium-hull specialist, as that comprises the vast majority of all ships in EVE. Same character is also starting to stray into small ships, which really doesn't leave much else for modern warfare (battleships are not currently a very popular meta, mostly because of bombers).


Thank you, I think you begin to see my dilemma in your final paragraph. For instance this toon was never meant to max out large weapon specs he was just going to maxed up to BC's. Then CCP brought out ABC's and so I was forced to change my goals.

The indies never used to be able to be fit and tanked properly. Now I find myself wondering if they could make awesome bait ships, especially the transport ships with their repping bonii.

But do you want to be piloting bait industrial ships? There also isn't a lot of training time involved there.

Drones are in the current meta, so I'd recommend starting with those skills.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#8 - 2015-05-25 17:18:23 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
All that time for 2% here and 2% there....

So if the idea is not to just boast, things that stand out for me:
* Khanid need drone skill polishing, and Capital Hybrid (I know, sub-cap goal, but it just stuck out).
* Raven lacks drug skills, and needs some targeting skills improvements (or lose the right ever complain about ECM).

The biggest problem I see in Khanid is that he strayed into capitals, which can be a real SP drain for little return, especially when you want to be a sub-cap specialist. Raven seems to have avoided that, and may be why he seems more well-rounded at a glance, with less SP.

Both surprisingly trained Afterburner 5, which notably causes AB to burn-out a bit sooner, as well as switch-over issue when operating dual-prop ships.

Max sub-cap PvP means whatever you want it to. The Nereus is known for PvP, but that is far from common.

Personally, I have an alt that is a medium-hull specialist, as that comprises the vast majority of all ships in EVE. Same character is also starting to stray into small ships, which really doesn't leave much else for modern warfare (battleships are not currently a very popular meta, mostly because of bombers).


All the skills I own are at IV, so it's getting down to prioritizing which skills to top off. 2% is all I really have to reach for.
One of the things I post regularly is that most pilots don't need MORE skills, they need BETTER skills. I apply that same doctrine to my own characters for the most part. I just wish I'd have done it sooner.

Boasting really isn't my thing. I've just been playing a long time, and that character is a result of the long term subscription.
Also, 3 accounts allowed me to focus the characters a little more. Cap ship stuff is on Paines sheet. My Indy guy has the most skills at V, but would look insanely incomplete in many areas.
I'm proud of some parts of Revenges sheet, but not so proud of other parts. All in all, Revenge is my favorite PvP pilot.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2015-05-25 17:58:23 UTC
Well, as both have touched on my comment of boasting, I'll apologize now and briefly explain.

Over the years I've seen numerous high SP posts where the person isn't really asking for skill training advice.

However, as I hope you will both note, despite that I'm still attempting to provide useful feedback.
Khanid Voltar
#10 - 2015-05-25 18:12:33 UTC
I wasn't really asking for skill training advice, when you get towards a high sp level you kinda know where the holes are and what needs to be done etc.

I was more asking whether other people would perceive max subcap pvp as including anything that can fit a gun.

I think longer term players have as many thoughts about directions to skill in as younger ones, the difference is a lot of the support skill gaps you find in younger players have already been filled. But it doesn't stop us old timers thinking about stuff, and asking for other peoples opinions. I guess if I was still active I would probably have just asked in corp but since I'm not it went here.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2015-05-25 19:00:41 UTC
Khanid Voltar wrote:
I wasn't really asking for skill training advice, when you get towards a high sp level you kinda know where the holes are and what needs to be done etc.

I was more asking whether other people would perceive max subcap pvp as including anything that can fit a gun.

I think longer term players have as many thoughts about directions to skill in as younger ones, the difference is a lot of the support skill gaps you find in younger players have already been filled. But it doesn't stop us old timers thinking about stuff, and asking for other peoples opinions. I guess if I was still active I would probably have just asked in corp but since I'm not it went here.

That might be more of a GD thread then, at the risk of being a GD thread of course

Unless you are in say Bovril, I doubt if you'll find much use for battle-Procurers and battle-Skiffs, for example. Industrial combat is pretty rare, aside from possibly a solo Nereus that I previously mentioned.

Unless you plan to sell the character, I wouldn't be concerned with the opinions of others, unless I was at a loss for what to train.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#12 - 2015-05-25 19:45:44 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Well, as both have touched on my comment of boasting, I'll apologize now and briefly explain.

Over the years I've seen numerous high SP posts where the person isn't really asking for skill training advice.

However, as I hope you will both note, despite that I'm still attempting to provide useful feedback.


No offense was taken and no apology necessary. I've seen some of those same posts and had the same general thoughts about them. Tbh, whenever I post my own skill sheet it sort of *feels* like boasting. I just took the opportunity to state my position on that.

You're one of the most helpful, straight forward guys in these forums.
Typically, rarely, if you're being blunt to someone, it's because they deserve it.
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#13 - 2015-05-26 15:35:27 UTC
First off regarding your capital skills, for the love of god. Do not get into one for combat. Between the interesting choice of low-ball dread skills and the Fighters 3 and other drone skills (for guardian/slowcat archon setups) just.. no. You're doing no justice to the ships and to be honest using a subcap would actually be more DPS than the carriers.

Drones - Having the skill to 1 is pointless, just train them to 4. Additional training time is arguable as a "waste." You are to the point that putting them to 5 could be an option within the next year. You cannot be max Gallente subcap considering gallente has multiple ships with bonuses to drones.

Honestly, not to bad. Given how many skills you have I am not going to go through and make sure you have each and every one applicable for each race/hull but honestly its not bad at all. Except your drones, they are terrible.Big smile
Khanid Voltar
#14 - 2015-05-26 16:05:21 UTC
Hey, thanks for your reply.

That wasn't really what I was asking but I'm beginning to see that I have framed the question poorly, because you're not the first respondent to think that Smile

I was trying to get at whether one would think that max subcap would include anything that could fit a gun. EG whether I should do the racial industrials to 5 as well before remapping (I already have the Amarr one to 5).

But out of the conversation with Raven & Tau I have begun to see that if I want to go that route then I really need to think about doing Mining Barges too since they can use drones, and when you factor in anything that can use drones the list suddenly gets massive - all in all I guess I will just shove that off into the long term after capitals etc as well.

So I will be remapping to memory early next year as originally planned to sort my drones out as you and Tau so rightly recommend.

o7



lord xavier
Rubbed Out
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#15 - 2015-05-26 21:44:34 UTC
Personally, I don't consider anything that can fit a gun to be a combat ship. I have toyed around with some "battle" setups such as ventures, haulers and such but I would never actually training Mining Barge, Mining Frigate and such to 5 for the purpose of using them for battle. Maybe on an alt that can actually be used as bait but unless training it provides some kind of resists bonus, I wouldnt ever see the need for training it higher than the designated level to fit it.

Procurers are often used for their ability to light cynos and spread points with their scan res. Ventures are actually quite fun in my opinion. I've used them in the past in FW areas. They can be fun but it's more of a troll combat ship than an actual combat ship.
Khanid Voltar
#16 - 2015-05-27 00:20:02 UTC
Thanks that is a lot more along the lines of what I was asking.

I think the thing is for me, that:

T1 Industrials tend to offer a speed or inertia bonus

T2 Industrials tend to offer a repping or resistance bonus

T2 Mining frigate offers a sig reduction bonus

T2 Mining Barge offers a resistance bonus

whereas

T1 Mining Frigate offers no discernible PVP bonus

T1 Mining Barge offers no discernible PVP bonus

Yet both are needed to 5 to pilot their T2 equivalent.

Nevetheless I stand by what I said before and will kick it to the long grass :)
Khanid Voltar
#17 - 2015-05-27 00:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanid Voltar
Perhaps I should also add that an ambition should I ever return to the game is to try and get a solo kill in every single possible ship I can fly.

Hence those ships not designed to PVP would be those that would benefit most from maxing out tank or navigation skill bonuses.

But in all likelihood I will probably never achieve such a goal (or even return to the game long term). Still it's good to have goals right?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#18 - 2015-05-27 01:05:54 UTC
Khanid Voltar wrote:
Perhaps I should also add that an ambition should I ever return to the game is to try and get a solo kill in every single possible ship I can fly.

Hence those ships not designed to PVP would be those that would benefit most from maxing out tank or navigation skill bonuses.

But in all likelihood I will probably never achieve such a goal (or even return to the game long term). Still it's good to have goals right?

That actually sounds like a very good goal to me.

But then, I also supported the guy that wanted to visit and snapshot every system in EVE. He completed his goal, then w-space was released, and he said something like "see you all in another 2 years". Haven't heard about him since, and it has been 6 years.

So ya, your goal sounds even better.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#19 - 2015-05-27 01:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
I've been through the same thought process and decided to avoid anything industrial for now. This mean haulers and mining ships, as well as mining drones and any leadership skills in those areas. (although leadership for me is a distance away yet.)
I toyed with the idea for some time, but hate the thought of having those skills in my sheet, so didn't. Lol

I have actually finished all the current Perc and Will specific skills I need, except those not released at this point. I will so move onto Intel/Mem skills and round all those too. I am at present finishing salvage and advanced drone skills, before my remap.

The difference being from yourself is I have also included cap ship skills, so it has taken me far longer.

Mag's on Eveboard.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Dominique Vasilkovsky
#20 - 2015-05-27 09:47:13 UTC
This character is slowly moving towards max everything subcaps, as in every non capital skill in game to 5 eventually.

Would be nice if the attributes were removed as talked about at the winter CSM as it would let you train things in a bit more interesting order instead of just 1-2 years of each attribute.
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